West Coast Warzone ft. Blind Ducky - Episode 4

[Cage Redfield]

on a somewhat related topic, I found the post that started "the feud" between me and fil. Before this point, the only interaction I had with Fil was asking for his opinion on certain match-ups, because GGA plays a goofy line-up of characters that you don't normally come across online.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/they-dont-call-me-the-main-man-for-nothing-the-lobo-general-discussion-thread.31239/page-33#post-1232136

turns out all i had to do was go to the most recent page then back by 1 >_> That settles that little thing.


like i said in the previous thread that discussed this, i'm done with the whole feud thing personally. I can't prove myself as the best without providing results, which is something I cannot do atm. And again, I have never considered myself the best Lobo player. I have never made one single statement even implying that in all my time in the Lobo section. All I've done is discuss the character and play the game.

Quick note I want to point out regarding the whole "excuses" thing. I'm not pulling any sort of bitchery by saying "oh i cant go to this tournament, i'm only 17!". I don't have a ride and my parents aren't too keen on the idea of me getting rides from other people, or the idea of me going to a local and coming home at 4 in the morning. I'm not saying whatever comes to mind and yucking it up at home, watching the stream and saying "gee I'm glad I didn't go there, I could've lost!".

I honestly don't care if other people call me the worst or best, but I do care if people think I prefer sitting on my ass, playing online everyday and watching wnf from my laptop over getting games offline against players like tyrant or theo and actually being at super arcade.

 

[Doombawkz]

I feel ya Cage. Hell, I'm 21 but I don't have the time to run around doing tourneys.
I know I can't "prove myself" and I'm the worst Bane, but I've always wanted to do my gimmicks on stream for once.

 

[16 Bit]

So basically this feud exists because Fill Pops called Cage Redfield a downplayer and Rebelloed Lobo. In other words exactly what Wonder Chef has done with my character since the game came out.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Read the pages

Will listen tomorrow

 

[MortySeinfeld]

After listening to this, the primary argument Chef is trying to make is that he does not feel a lot of the local communities are playing the metagame properly (ie: playing who he feels are top-tier).

From my observation, since the game has been rebalanced we have seen a lot of character variety.

To me, this means one of two things:

- Maybe Chef is right, and the real 'top-tiers' are not rising to the top.
- Maybe the game is actually well balanced, and the game lends to character variety.

When I look at the character roster for Injustice, i'm inclined to feel like there are a significant amount of characters that are incredibly competitive. I think the game is well balanced.

I am siding with Hippo on this, I think the 'perceived top-tier' in this game (ie: Superman, Aquaman, Black Adam, etc.) are very linear and uninteresting.

I don't think this game lacks depth, but I can see how playing some of these less interesting characters for a long period of time would get dull pretty quick.

I think what we're seeing from a lot of the local scenes are, people trying to maintain interest in a game with characters that they enjoy that allow them to feel some level of success (diverse roster, well balanced game).

 

[4x4lo8o]

Actually speaking of, I've always wondered if d.d. motions auto-correct themselves.
Like Flash's running man stance and all.

I know Ares Godsmack(dd3, then a direction) gets fucked up in a weird way on cross ups depending on the timing. You'll dd3, b to do a close Godsmack, then they'll cross you up and it causes you to do a far Godsmack in the original direction. So the placement of the Godsmack doesn't match the direction you inputted and it doesn't autocorrect or do the Godsmack in the right direction. You can hit dd3, left and end up going to the far right.
It kinda makes sense if you think about the way the game reads inputs but it feel unintuitive(at least it always has to me). You would expect to get a Godsmack facing the original direction and going to the location you wanted or a Godsmack facing the crossed up direction going to the opposite location of what you tried to input. Instead it combines the two.

 

[Doombawkz]

Maybe its because Bane's f.2.d is activated on a down motion then.
I honestly don't know. I know the move auto-corrects 100% of the time once I press down, but I can never figure why or why other moves don't follow the same idea.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Maybe its because Bane's f.2.d is activated on a down motion then.
I honestly don't know. I know the move auto-corrects 100% of the time once I press down, but I can never figure why or why other moves don't follow the same idea.

I think it's just because the move starts out as f2 and once you make it f2d it "becomes a different move" so to speak. Once you start the new move it reassesses where the opponent is and which way the attack is supposed to go. I know there's other sort of similar stuff, like when Cyborg does mb NB and you change sides during the first shot the MB portion will autocorrect. Although that doesn't apply to NW's Staff Ground Pound, so it's somewhat inconsistent.

The fact that it's down helps, because it prevents you from ever being option selected out of inputting it in the correct direction, but that's probably not the mechanic that makes it autocorrect.

 

[Doombawkz]

I think it's just because the move starts out as f2 and once you make it f2d it "becomes a different move" so to speak. Once you start the new move it reassesses where the opponent is and which way the attack is supposed to go. I know there's other sort of similar stuff, like when Cyborg does mb NB and you change sides during the first shot the MB portion will autocorrect. Although that doesn't apply to NW's Staff Ground Pound, so it's somewhat inconsistent.

The fact that it's down helps, because it prevents you from ever being option selected out of inputting it in the correct direction, but that's probably not the mechanic that makes it autocorrect.

I dunno because I've had times where I've input down (the move doing from f.2 to f.2.d is about 11 frames difference I think they said?) When the opponent was going over me (like after a b.3) and he still corrected despite me already having the command in.

I mean yeah the down is handy for its reasons, but f.2.d still has its weird bits.

Likewise with teleports, Bane will either change direction or not depending on the speed of the teleport. Something like a late shazam port won't auto-correct, but like any of Zatanna's or Ares's ports will.

 

[4x4lo8o]

I can't figure out what blake's name is anymore! I'm trying to tag him =[

@AK/RM GamerBlake

 

[Qwark28]

 

[4x4lo8o]

I dunno because I've had times where I've input down (the move doing from f.2 to f.2.d is about 11 frames difference I think they said?) When the opponent was going over me (like after a b.3) and he still corrected despite me already having the command in.

I mean yeah the down is handy for its reasons, but f.2.d still has its weird bits.

I think that's because hitting down isn't what triggers the change. It's releasing 2 while d is being held. You can hold 2, press down, release down, and then release 2 and still get f2. It doesn't decide(or read) whether you've changed move until you finish the charge part of f2. Maybe it can still autocorrect after that, you have more experience than I do, but I haven't seen it autocorrect mid f2d animation.

The in game frame data says f2 is 26 frames and f2d is 24 frames. I don't know if I trust that at all though. Sorta like when you look at the frame data of the mb portion of a move, it's difficult to tell exactly what the start up frames are referring to

 

[Doombawkz]

I think that's because hitting down isn't what triggers the change. It's releasing 2 while d is being held. You can hold 2, press down, release down, and then release 2 and still get f2. It doesn't decide(or read) whether you've changed move until you finish the charge part of f2. Maybe it can still autocorrect after that, you have more experience than I do, but I haven't seen it autocorrect mid f2d animation.

The in game frame data says f2 is 26 frames and f2d is 24 frames. I don't know if I trust that at all though. Sorta like when you look at the frame data of the mb portion of a move, it's difficult to tell exactly what the start up frames are referring to

f.2 turns into f.2.d the moment you input the down motion. You probably haven't seen many mid-animation turns because f.2.d isn't a commonly used tool by most Banes. Max uses it the most but its auto-correct isn't really useful outside of fighting teleporters and even that is only good at level 3 where it gets armor, projectile immunity, and armor breaking.

The reason that is, is because the f.2.d is 11 frames from when you cancel the f.2 charge. The fastest is half-way through the motion, so at its fastest it is 26/2 = 13 + 11 = 24 frames.
However, the latest you can cancel it is 20 frames in, so you can also have a 31 frame f.2.d

 

[4x4lo8o]

f.2 turns into f.2.d the moment you input the down motion. You probably haven't seen many mid-animation turns because f.2.d isn't a commonly used tool by most Banes. Max uses it the most but its auto-correct isn't really useful outside of fighting teleporters and even that is only good at level 3 where it gets armor, projectile immunity, and armor breaking.

The reason that is, is because the f.2.d is 11 frames from when you cancel the f.2 charge. The fastest is half-way through the motion, so at its fastest it is 26/2 = 13 + 11 = 24 frames.
However, the latest you can cancel it is 20 frames in, so you can also have a 31 frame f.2.d

F2 definitely does not change into f2d the second you hit down. I'm in practice mode right now. I can hit down and then release it and still get f2. I'll record a video if you'd like, you can see from the inputs on the side that down was pressed but f2 came out.
I don't really understand all the frame data wizardry you're doing. Where does 11 frames come from?

Chef's gonna hate me for starting a Bane argument with you in his thread

 

[Doombawkz]

F2 definitely does not change into f2d the second you hit down. I'm in practice mode right now. I can hit down and then release it and still get f2. I'll record a video if you'd like, you can see from the inputs on the side that down was pressed but f2 came out.
I don't really understand all the frame data wizardry you're doing. Where does 11 frames come from?

Chef's gonna hate me for starting a Bane argument with you in his thread

Are you playing with release check on or off?
The 11 frames comes from an old problem with our frame data where f.2.d was "11 frames" but colt confirmed my suspicion that it means the f.2.d comes out 11 frames after cancelling the f.2, the fastest of which is halfway through i.e. 13 frames.

Its not an argument, its clarification.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Are you playing with release check on or off?
The 11 frames comes from an old problem with our frame data where f.2.d was "11 frames" but colt confirmed my suspicion that it means the f.2.d comes out 11 frames after cancelling the f.2, the fastest of which is halfway through i.e. 13 frames.

Its not an argument, its clarification.

Release check is off

 

[Doombawkz]

Ah. I dunno what to tell you then, mine turns f.2.d whenever I press down. Maybe I'm lifting off the 2 and just not noticing it because of habit.

 

[16 Bit]

@EGP Wonder_Chef

I still don't understand this "flawed meta" talking point.

"oh, look, this character won our local, this character is top tier".

"they're totally ignoring that their meta is incomplete."

No one at GGA bases their tier lists on the results of our locals. I am the current #1 seed for season 2. I have the record for most GBS wins. No one here thinks Catwoman is top tier. In fact YOUR SCENE spent the past 8 months telling us how ridiculous Catwoman is! YOU are the guys that kept saying "you just don't know! Catwoman is secret top tier!!!!" So what are you talking about? No one here thinks Scorpion is top tier. No one here thinks Hawkgirl is top tier. GGA doesn't have a universal opinion on Bane. We all think he is good, how good is debated. GGA players don't even go around posting tier lists.

The only character we Rebello is Bane and we're not saying he is #1. We're not saying anything the Bane community hasn't been saying actually. So far we haven't been proven wrong. Grr is doing work on the EC and Max is winning here in the Midwest. You act like Max losing to Superman or Batman is some big shocker we never saw coming. Max says Superman and Batman beat Bane. At KIT Max was double eliminated by one of the best Batman players in the world 3-2 both sets, completely in line with what GGA thinks of Bane.


Batman was one of your examples of a character we're missing and supposedly just don't know...

Here's our post patch track record against Bruce Wayne:

PPJ defeated Darth Arma at NEC.
Myself and Wafflez forced Carl off Batman at Frosty Faustings.
Myself and Max lost to King at KIT but were close, last game sets in matchups that are considered to be losing for our mains.

Sinestro was another example. At KIT Playing to Win was sent to losers by GGA Saucy Jack and I double eliminated RTD. We all think Sinestro is a top tier character. We've recently been blown up by Cowboy and Ohio for overrating Sinestro!

So what are you talking about? We all know if we had a top Aquaman then Scorpion and Catwoman wouldn't win as easily. I am the one saying Aquaman beats Catwoman. YOU are the one always saying she gives him trouble! I don't know where you're going with this. You seem to just be upset we say Bane is a good character and that he did well at KIT. Sorry Max delivered and everyone made fun of your Skype Hype tier list position for Bane.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I still can't believe how seriously people took and still take that character ranking list.

 

[trustinme]

My mrs caught me blow drying my penis earlier and asked me what I was doing,apparently 'heating your lunch' was not the right answer.

 

[RM Truth]

Maybe its because Bane's f.2.d is activated on a down motion then.
I honestly don't know. I know the move auto-corrects 100% of the time once I press down, but I can never figure why or why other moves don't follow the same idea.

Batgirl's teleport auto corrects as well.

 

[RM Truth]

@EGP Wonder_Chef

I still don't understand this "flawed meta" talking point.

"oh, look, this character won our local, this character is top tier".

"they're totally ignoring that their meta is incomplete."

No one at GGA bases their tier lists on the results of our locals. I am the current #1 seed for season 2. I have the record for most GBS wins. No one here thinks Catwoman is top tier. In fact YOUR SCENE spent the past 8 months telling us how ridiculous Catwoman is! YOU are the guys that kept saying "you just don't know! Catwoman is secret top tier!!!!" So what are you talking about? No one here thinks Scorpion is top tier. No one here thinks Hawkgirl is top tier. GGA doesn't have a universal opinion on Bane. We all think he is good, how good is debated. GGA players don't even go around posting tier lists.

The only character we Rebello is Bane and we're not saying he is #1. We're not saying anything the Bane community hasn't been saying actually. So far we haven't been proven wrong. Grr is doing work on the EC and Max is winning here in the Midwest. You act like Max losing to Superman or Batman is some big shocker we never saw coming. Max says Superman and Batman beat Bane. At KIT Max was double eliminated by one of the best Batman players in the world 3-2 both sets, completely in line with what GGA thinks of Bane.


Batman was one of your examples of a character we're missing and supposedly just don't know...

Here's our post patch track record against Bruce Wayne:

PPJ defeated Darth Arma at NEC.
Myself and Wafflez forced Carl off Batman at Frosty Faustings.
Myself and Max lost to King at KIT but were close, last game sets in matchups that are considered to be losing for our mains.

Sinestro was another example. At KIT Playing to Win was sent to losers by GGA Saucy Jack and I double eliminated RTD. We all think Sinestro is a top tier character. We've recently been blown up by Cowboy and Ohio for overrating Sinestro!

So what are you talking about? We all know if we had a top Aquaman then Scorpion and Catwoman wouldn't win as easily. I am the one saying Aquaman beats Catwoman. YOU are the one always saying she gives him trouble! I don't know where you're going with this. You seem to just be upset we say Bane is a good character and that he did well at KIT. Sorry Max delivered and everyone made fun of your Skype Hype tier list position for Bane.

I just wanna get this straight. I haven't listened to this yet, but essentially, according to that statement, I wasn't even considered Batman experience?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Listening now

I did NOT know the bane MU like I should have w ZOD . @Blind_Man is right there's so much I didn't do and know in MU

Sucks but it's cool, I know now much more

 

[4x4lo8o]

I'm finally getting around to listening to this, just got to the stacked major discussion.

I think there's a distinction between a stacked tournament and a tournament that has the strongest representation and highest level of players(I don't know what the term for this is, but it's something separate from stacked). I've always thought that stacked has to do with the ratio of really good players to the total number entrants. It means there's not many pot monsters, almost everyone who enters is a threat. A potential top 8 might not even make it out of pools in a stacked major because every pool has multiple really high caliber players, compared to something like Evo where there were pools that didn't have a single well known player in them. A stacked tournament has a smaller gap between the highest level player and lowest level player and the high level play starts right out of the gate.

So in that sense Kumite was really stacked, probably more stacked than NEC. But that doesn't mean that a placing at KiT means more than a similar one at NEC or that the level of play at top 8 was the same. NEC had all the best players from all the best scenes, so it was probably a higher level of competition at the top and winning it should get more props(lnsoch, this is all about props).

Stacked is just another thing you look at when considering a tournaments importance and thinking about what placings mean and it matters but is only important in certain contexts. For example, I went 0-2 and at WNF because the tournament was super stacked and I had to play Theo in round 1 of losers. I feel less bad about that then I would have if I'd gone 0-2 at Evo(or even than I do about my actual results of 4-2) because Evo was way less stacked. But nobody thinks winning or placing top 8 in WNFs is better than Evo. Stacked matters if you're comparing tournaments of the same size(a stacked 30 man tournament is better than a non-stacked 30 man tournament) but arguing that a significantly larger tournament with better representation overall is less stacked misses the point(the super stacked 60 man major with all the good players from 3 scenes probably isn't as important as the slightly less stacked 120 man major with the very best players from every scene)

 

[coolwhip]

What does it matter if the GGA meta is "incomplete" if they're doing well against the characters they don't play once they come up against them? PPJ single handedly beat a top Batman player, a top MMH, and Tyrant's Superman at NEC.