vVv's New Controversial Article

[RagingNight]

A polarizing article to be sure. Much of it seems to be aimed at getting the capcom players and event orgainizers on board(albeit by hurling insults at them). To be perfectly honest I have less than affectionate feelings for the Street Fighter community and the capcom community in general. With the exception of a few genuine guys who walk their own path and dont give a fuck what others think like Sabin for instance, the capcom fanboys have never been that kind to us. We are a joke to most of them. So I find it very difficult to give a shit about their internal problems,differences of opinion, drama.

It isnt like MK would ever be included in any of this as the capcom community would never allow it. As long as they harbor these feelings and view us the way that they do the MK community will always be on its own. And Im damn fine with that. I would rather be in a small room with 50 guys that love playing MK then be in a large room with 500 guys with 450 of them snickering and laughing at us.

Alot of people will say Im being naive, that the MK community cant be so insular if we want to grow. That we need to reach out and be part of the FGC as a whole. My anwser to that? Dont look at us like we are the problem. Talk to the Capcom Mafia that shun everything that wasnt birthed by Capcom. Its isnt like we havent tried. They dont want us, so fuck em. As long as we have friends like Big Eric or Sweet johnny Cage and LI Joe its not like we are going to lose our tournaments.

If it sounds like Im being a little hateful of FGC's that arent MK, understand its because you can only get told your a piece of shit by someone so many times before you really dont want to hear it anymore and just want them to fuck off.

As far as the vVv article goes. Most of it doesnt apply to us. To the rest of the FGC we dont exist or at best we're the red headed step child. But I do have to ask, in an article so fully directed at capcom players why even mention REO and CD jr's names? In an article that is likely to get alot of heated responses it would be sad to see some of that heat fall on REO and CD jr when they have absolutely nothing to do with whats being said.

Personally I have no problem with vVv.....................................so long as they always treat REO and CD jr right and with the respect they deserve.

Fanboys will keep being fanboys. You don't think MK/BB/Tekken/SC fanboys hate capcom games equally as much? Or that the SF fanboys hate Marvel and vice versa? Especially when it comes to streams and the internet (thank you anonymity)

In the end, I would say most people in real life are just fighting game fans that have strong preference to a certain branch of the FGC. It can't just be that all the "top players" are special and that they'll try any game. I personally prefer SF/Marvel over MK9 but that doesn't mean I have to like one and hate the other. I can like both but just simply have preferences and I feel that a large portion of the FGC is in that same boat. Look at the whole team spooky (spooky, nerdjosh, min, arturo), look at the games levelup stream once in awhile (gundam, TMNT etc etc) and Markman (where its plain as day that he prefers tekken) they are just fighting game fans.

You categorizing a bunch of people just puts an example for others to do the same, and in some cases against the thing you like. If you want to be all negative, then don't be surprise that all you get is negativity. A lot of "capcom fans" hate capcom games. Look at the people who complained mvc3 was a stepback from mvc2 and hate capcom for it. Look at the initial responses of SF4, and capcom fighting jam etc etc. List goes on. Basically people like games not due to the developer, but the game itself. I highly doubt people are fans just because of the name "capcom" or "namco".

Even with your attitude of "fuck them" hurts people that would even be sympathetic to your side. What about anime fighters like blazblue, guilty gear, arcana hearts, melty blood, KOF and etc. What are they not worth being on "MKs level" that they deserve the hate as well?

To you saying it doesn't apply to MK, well I have to disagree and that it highly applies to MK. What if MK instead of SF was game., would you want things to turn out like Or would you rather have the community such as TYM help lead the way for MK in e-sports? Lastly once again, by picking only MK, it furthers the divide of the FGC. A lot of players that haven't given MK a chance prior to MK9 only gave it a chance due to it being in community ran tournaments and by then becoming aware of the MK community. What because they chose MK and not skullgirls its "tough luck" and they deserve not to be given the same opportunity to atleast present themselves to the fighting game community?

edit
Lastly did you not hear the podcast between VVV and Spooky? Spooky was basically talked down to in that whole podcast by somebody that knows the "real adult world". Is Spooky not a part of the MK community? Did he not do MK justice the best he could? Or is he a "capcom fanboy"? In my honest opinion, I view spooky as one of the prime examples of a member of the FGC, an individual that gives all games a chance and is willing to help all games within the FGC. Same with ultradavid and Arturo. In the case of MK, both have tried the game, learned the game and contribute to that scene (commentating and being a tourney player).

 

[Dark_Rob]

Fanboys will keep being fanboys. You don't think MK/BB/Tekken/SC fanboys hate capcom games equally as much? Or that the SF fanboys hate Marvel and vice versa? Especially when it comes to streams and the internet (thank you anonymity)

In the end, I would say most people in real life are just fighting game fans that have strong preference to a certain branch of the FGC. It can't just be that all the "top players" are special and that they'll try any game. I personally prefer SF/Marvel over MK9 but that doesn't mean I have to like one and hate the other. I can like both but just simply have preferences and I feel that a large portion of the FGC is in that same boat. Look at the whole team spooky (spooky, nerdjosh, min, arturo), look at the games levelup stream once in awhile (gundam, TMNT etc etc) and Markman (where its plain as day that he prefers tekken) they are just fighting game fans.
You categorizing a bunch of people just puts an example for others to do the same, and in some cases against the thing you like. If you want to be all negative, then don't be surprise that all you get is negativity. A lot of "capcom fans" hate capcom games. Look at the people who complained mvc3 was a stepback from mvc2 and hate capcom for it. Look at the initial responses of SF4, and capcom fighting jam etc etc. List goes on. Basically people like games not due to the developer, but the game itself. I highly doubt people are fans just because of the name "capcom" or "namco".

Even with your attitude of "fuck them" hurts people that would even be sympathetic to your side. What about anime fighters like blazblue, guilty gear, arcana hearts, melty blood, KOF and etc. What are they not worth being on "MKs level" that they deserve the hate as well?

To you saying it doesn't apply to MK, well I have to disagree and that it highly applies to MK. What if MK instead of SF was game., would you want things to turn out like. Or would you rather have the community such as TYM help lead the way for MK in e-sports? Lastly once again, by picking only MK, it furthers the divide of the FGC. A lot of players that haven't given MK a chance prior to MK9 only gave it a chance due to it being in community ran tournaments and by then becoming aware of the MK community. What because they chose MK and not skullgirls its "tough luck" and they deserve not to be given the same opportunity to atleast present themselves to the fighting game community?

edit
Lastly did you not hear the podcast between VVV and Spooky? Spooky was basically talked down to in that whole podcast by somebody that knows the "real adult world". Is Spooky not a part of the MK community? Did he not do MK justice the best he could? Or is he a "capcom fanboy"? In my honest opinion, I view spooky as one of the prime examples of a member of the FGC, an individual that gives all games a chance and is willing to help all games within the FGC. Same with ultradavid and Arturo. In the case of MK, both have tried the game, learned the game and contribute to that scene (commentating and being a tourney player).

Brother in an ideal world id be the first one to back everything you say. Unfortunately its not an ideal world. However most of the guys you mention are not the guys Im talking about. Spooky has done everything he could for us everytime weve dealt with him. Ive got nothing but love for Spooky. Arturo is one of the guys I respect the most in the FGC because he does not care what anyone else thinks. He plays what he wants to, associates with who he wants to and doesnt give a damn if other people have a problem with that. Art has been one of our biggest supporters and Im sure hes had to take his share of flak for that.

Markman? Is there anyone who doesnt love that guy? Ive met him many times and hes just the best.

No, no its none of these people. In fact Im not going to even name names because its pointless. There are high profile people out there who bash our community every chance they get and they know who they are. And lots of them to. The hatred I had to read in the stream chat during the NEC top 8 was horrendous. And not by no name stream monsters, but people whos names are well known and when they speak people listen.

As for the players of other niche games like BB,GG,AH and the like. Im sure they have to deal with much of the same bullshit as we do. My heart goes out to them, but I cant worry about them. You gotta look after your own house first and MK is where I hang my hat.

 

[RagingNight]

Brother in an ideal world id be the first one to back everything you say. Unfortunately its not an ideal world. However most of the guys you mention are not the guys Im talking about. Spooky has done everything he could for us everytime weve dealt with him. Ive got nothing but love for Spooky. Arturo is one the guys I respect the most in the FGC because he does not care what anyone else thinks. He plays what he wants to, associates with who he wants to and doesnt give a damn if other people have a problem with that. Art has been one of our biggest supporters and Im sure hes had to take his share of flak for that.

Markman? Is there anyone who doesnt love that guy? Ive met him many times and hes just the best.

No, no its none of these people. In fact Im not going to even name names because its pointless. There are high profile people out there who bash our community every chance they get and they know who they are. And lots of them to. The hatred I had to read in the stream chat during the NEC top 8 was horrendous. And not by no name stream monsters, but people whos names are well known and when they speak people listen.

As for the players of other niche games like BB,GG,AH and the like. Im sure they have to deal with much of the same bullshit as we do. My heart goes out to them, but I cant worry about them. You gotta look after your own house first and MK is where I hang my hat.

Well I agree somewhat, but at the same time I don't. There will always be haters, its just the nature of this current generation compounded with the internet. It might be an ideal world, but if we don't even attempt to take steps in that direction then it will always be an ideal. Progress is nothing short of sweat and blood. Honestly who gives a damn if they hate your game, because in the end you like your game and thats that. There is no need to hate on others just to compensate for people hating on things you like. Simply put "haters gonna hate".

Also I find it highly offensive what VVV gaming did to Spooky. Of all people it was just wrong to not only lead him with loaded questions, but to treat him like a child. This is the exact reason why this whole debate about e-sports is even remotely a big deal. I bet you Arturo 100% disagrees with how VVV handled that situation and treated spooky. Right there alone already involves 2 prominent members of the MK community, if that isn't applying to the mk community then I don't know what is. This is a prime example of what needs to be understood between both sides (e-sports and FGC)

IMO the FGC needs to step up and heads towards a united group so that they can discuss what is in the best interesting of the FGC and not any individual games.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Well I agree somewhat, but at the same time I don't. There will always be haters, its just the nature of this current generation compounded with the internet. It might be an ideal world, but if we don't even attempt to take steps in that direction then it will always be an ideal. Progress is nothing short of sweat and blood. Honestly who gives a damn if they hate your game, because in the end you like your game and thats that. There is no need to hate on others just to compensate for people hating on things you like. Simply put "haters gonna hate".

Also I find it highly offensive what VVV gaming did to Spooky. Of all people it was just wrong to not only lead him with loaded questions, but to treat him like a child. This is the exact reason why this whole debate about e-sports is even remotely a big deal. I bet you Arturo 100% disagrees with how VVV handled that situation and treated spooky. Right there alone already involves 2 prominent members of the MK community, if that isn't applying to the mk community then I don't know what is.

IMO the FGC needs to step up and heads towards a united group so that they can discuss what is in the best interesting of the FGC and not any individual games.

I would like nothing better than to see the FGC step up and become a more united group. But what Ive learned in my years being deeply involved with this community is, its not up to us. We dont get to make those decisions. Our voice is not even heard for that matter. We are so far down the totem pole it would be like the President of the United States listening to some old retired guy who works part time pumping gas about his opinion on how to run the country. Thats the way we are viewed. We are the gas pumper.

As I said none of this applys to us. MK will not be an e-sport, ever. it is not even really considered a competitive fighter by most of the FGC. Say what you want about Tekken,BB,GG,AC,KOF,Marvel,SF. They may all have their haters and fanboys, but at least they are acknowledged as being competitive games. We cant even get that much. Instead we get "Ooooh loook Blood! hur hur" Just because Spooky and Arturo are involved does not mean it affects the MK community as both are involved in the greater FGC as a whole and not just us. Though as I said we have always been grateful for their support.

 

[RagingNight]

I would like nothing better than to see the FGC step up and become a more united group. But what Ive learned in my years being deeply involved with this community is, its not up to us. We dont get to make those decisions. Our voice is not even heard for that matter. We are so far down the totem pole it would be like the President of the United States listening to some old retired guy who works part time pumping gas about his opinion on how to run the country. Thats the way we are viewed. We are the gas pumper.

As I said none of this applys to us. MK will not be an e-sport, ever. it is not even really considered a competitive fighter by most of the FGC. Say what you want about Tekken,BB,GG,AC,KOF,Marvel,SF. They may all have their haters and fanboys, but at least they are acknowledged as being competitive games. We cant even get that much. Instead we get "Ooooh loook Blood! hur hur" Just because Spooky and Arturo are involved does not mean it affects the MK community as both are involved in the greater FGC as a whole and not just us. Though as I said we have always been grateful for their support.

With WB backing MK has a sizable chance to be in e-sports. Hell it was a part of MLG for a bit (though a very small part). I don't see how with enough work and luck that it can not be. MK is at least a solid spectating game, have you seen HoN or LoL? Those games are e-sports despite being GARBAGE spectating games. IMO the big 3 companies that stand a chance to be in e-sports are capcom, namco, NRS. That alone validates that the MK community should at least plan for a possible future. I mean I'm sure DOA/Brawl didn't expect to be in e-sports either and were surprise at their luck when it was.

 

[Dark_Rob]

With WB backing MK has a sizable chance to be in e-sports. Hell it was a part of MLG for a bit (though a very small part). I don't see how with enough work and luck that it can not be. MK is at least a solid spectating game, have you seen HoN or LoL? Those games are e-sports despite being GARBAGE spectating games. IMO the big 3 companies that stand a chance to be in e-sports are capcom, namco, NRS. That alone validates that the MK community should at least plan for a possible future. I mean I'm sure DOA/Brawl didn't expect to be in e-sports either and were surprise at their luck when it was.

Well at any rate, niether of us are going to solve these issues by ourselves, at 5 o clock in the morning. But before I head off to bed I will say this. You have a positive outlook. I admire it and respect it. I even thought that way once myself. If more people thought as you do then maybe the things you hope for would indeed come to pass. And maybe Ive been in the trenches to long and had to many shots fired at me and at the community I love that its made me a bit cynical. Is every single member of the FGC at large an MK hater? No of course not, but brother to me sometimes there are days when it sure feels like it.

Im a staunch supporter of this community. I feel there is no better community out there in my opinion. Sure we argue with one another, sure some of us dont always get along. But we all love the game and make no bones about it. So sometimes I get my back up when i feel Ive had to defend it one to many times.

Im not entirely sure becoming an e-sport would nessecarily be in our communities best interest at this point. We are still very young and very small and have alot of growing to do. However if the day somehow ever came and we were ready, and they were ready and it was right, I would welcome it as i would welcome anything that has or will ever helped this community become better.

 

[BEENEEWEENEES]

here's one of the best responses i've ever read against merging the current FGC with eSports leagues. it's kind of a bigg'un

http://8wayrun.com/threads/critical-edge-cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face.9277/#post-337000

i'm scared of the prospect of this turning into a scenario comparable to trying to be a professional football player; there are hundreds of thousands of kids, teenagers, young adults in teams in colleges and high schools all over the world, but only about 1,500 in the NFL, making money and getting recognition. the fact that the entire thing is community-driven is absolutely beautiful. streams showcase both old and new players, some who may not be too great, and grant the potential opportunity for ANYONE to be viewed by thousands who was able to make the trip to the event. eSports would remove this, because these are corporations trying to make $bank$ on showcasing the highest level of players to garner views and gain revenue. the community the FGC has is far too precious and special to hand off to organizations whose ultimate goal is putting money in their pockets.

to quote the linked article;
"We'd be foolish not to consider any opportunities coming down the esports pipeline, but we must remain cautious in our moves and aggressively protective of what we've already built. If we can adopt a stance that is both reasonable and muscular, I see no reason why leagues wouldn't want to simply integrate what we have in a largely unchanged manner. Our product is fucking solid, and we made it that way. Let's not forget that or cast it aside by childishly abdicating the responsibilities we worked so hard to control in the first place."

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

None one mentions what happened when Evo partnered with MLG for one year. That left a sour taste in many peoples mouth.

Enlighten some of us newer to the scene.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

The lack of respect disgusts me.

You will learn... respect!

 

[Juggs]

I had a lot of discussions on this last night with my peeps, I'm already beyond tired of this "drama". I would like to ask something though. What does vVv have to do with MLG or eSports? It's a completely ignorant question, as in I honestly have no idea and don't care to research it.

 

[AK BeerGuyEd]

I have read all of the articles involved and thought on it for a bit. Jerith took at less than nice way show his frustration with the FGC community for there perceived lack of vision when it comes to getting FGs into the larger world of "epsorts". UltraDavid wrote a really nice piece and overall I tend to agree with a lot of the points that UltraDavid made in the differences between the FGC and epsorts community. I am not trying to say that the FGC will never get along with the esports community but they are vastly different from a business prospective which means the business model will mostly likely also be very different. I think that is where is the disconnect is between Jerith and the "leaders" of the FGC. I believe that Jerith thinks that the business model of esports will work just fine with the FGC and the FGC disagrees with this theory. Again his frustration with other people not seeing his point of view has gotten the best of him and he chose a poor way to express this frustration. Since you can not really talk much about Jerith and his views without discussing the issue more in depth I will give my 2 cents on that as well.

As far as the overall way in which the FGC can grow into something of a similar nature of the esports is pretty tricky and needs to be handled delicately. I am not 100% sure that FGs can not coexist with esports in the same venues and tournaments. It would be nice if some of the additional sponsorship's that esports has (ie computer manufacturers along with the parts makers) but that is just not going to work as those dollars will not be well spent from the advertisers point of view. The FGC has grown through the majors that we all currently enjoy and allow the FGC to be the FGC without regard to other communities. This leads me to believe that the current majors are the best way to continue to grow the FGC into something that can garner the additional advertisers that would be needed to get the payouts for the players to get to the same level as esports, which is everyone's ultimate goal.

As singular entities our majors do not have enough clout with advertisers to get the money needed to significantly raise payouts for players. If all the majors where part of a single larger entity that ran them, that singular entity would be able to leverage the overall size of the community to advertisers directly and pass those advertisement dollars down to each major tournament making the overall FGC stronger without giving up what makes the FGC us. This idea is one that would not be easy to pull off as each major would really not want to give up control of their tournament. This idea would also strip away some of the individuality of some of the different majors but for the most part the tournaments would be pretty much the same, but not exactly the same as it is now. To execute something of this nature a board of directors of this FG tournament series would be named and include all of the people that currently run the majors, along with a couple of other people that are instrumental in the FGC. From there the schedule of majors can be set and the advertisers lineup up to be a part of this FG tournament series.

Just my thoughts on the subject feel free to discuss.

PS: I also think MK is one of the most if not the most valuable commodity within the FGC. We have the smaller tournament turnout than our Capcom brothers and our own somewhat separate scene, but we also have the most casual players that are untapped. 3 million+ copies sold gives MK a lot of potential players that are not playing in tournaments. Something like an organized and well run series of tournaments with lots of coverage and high payouts can be a real driving force for getting more MK players to go from casual to serious player.

 

[RagingNight]

I had a lot of discussions on this last night with my peeps, I'm already beyond tired of this "drama". I would like to ask something though. What does vVv have to do with MLG or eSports? It's a completely ignorant question, as in I honestly have no idea and don't care to research it.

vvv gaming is a sponsor of league games. They sponsor players from games like cod, halo, gow, and other stuff. So they have some weigh into e-sports like all sponsors do.

 

[Juggs]

vvv gaming is a sponsor of league games. They sponsor players from games like cod, halo, gow, and other stuff. So they have some weigh into e-sports like all sponsors do.

So essentially they're a "team/clan" who are also a sponsor? Okay, I knew that much. Is that it? Not to sound like that isn't a lot, just making sure that's all that they are.

 

[RagingNight]

So essentially they're a "team/clan" who are also a sponsor? Okay, I knew that much. Is that it? Not to sound like that isn't a lot, just making sure that's all that they are.

As far as I understand it, yes. By looking at their frontpage i would assume they are sponsor by a few companies like steel series and etc.

 

[digitaldemize]

Heh, saw this on a few other sites as well and did the relevant reading.

On what "vvv" is. Their format seems to be the same that PC gaming teams have been using since the 90's, but as they dabble in consoles they will make less off of it. PC gaming "teams" are not actually sponsors, though they can sponsor you. In a nut shell the organization is formed and they get money through selling products, sponsors that want to sell or advertise products, winnings, and selling stuff like lessons at $80 bucks an hour. Given that PC mice are $80 for a top flight one, keyboards are more than that, a good mouse pad is 40 bucks, a new video card is 400 bucks, gaming mobos, ram, cpus, all run several hundred bucks, game server rentals, and the slew of other stuff around PC gaming it's not uncommon for serious gamers to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars in a given year on the hobby.

This makes it extremely lucrative for these companies to pay a top flight team a shit ton of cash to help push their gear. Gamers on a PC gaming team or 1v1 gamers hauling in north of 60 grand a year in raw salary, competing in events where the top prize is 40K or more for a single player, is not an unheard of situation for PC gamers, that shit's been going on for a while now.

This works for everybody in a roundabout way. Players for whatever game is in competition at the moment can go to an organization that already has sponsorship and funds lined up and in place so they don't have to fish around and try to land all of that on their own. The sponsors can deal with established organizations that are known to pick winners in a large amount of games and thus gain maximum exposure over all and make sure that once the game is dead they don't have to worry about finding someone for a new game as the team will do it for them. The team makes enough off the top to pay the people that run it some money for their time.

The downside is that as soon as a game is not a competitive circuit the team will drop you fast as fuck since you're just dead weight sucking up funds for no return on investment.

I have no idea how vvv runs their shit, but that's how it's been done since the late 90's in esports and it's been proven to work.


That all said I do agree with Ultra David's points on why it just isn't the greatest idea for fighting games.

The fighting game community isn't photogenic, doesn't sound good on camera, and is a bit raw when you get down to it. None of those things are things that sponsors like. On the other hand those things are exactly what the people in the games want. Top notch esports events are fairly professional and the racism, sexist jokes, and side behavior (gambling and partying) are all stuff that scare the crap out of sponsors as they don't want to be associated with them. It's all horrifically bad for their brand image.

David, and those on his side of things like Tom, are coming from the stance that this isn't about the money and is about preserving the community and the feel of the arcade. They like the ability anybody can jump in and pros aren't treated specially. The enjoy that people can talk shit, get rowdy, make bets on the side, and that their community can crack race jokes and not worry about sexual harrasment. They also realize none of that is going to fly with top flight corporate sponsors. Their might be more money in the pots, but the entire soul of the thing will change, and from their standpoint it's not worth it.

The real problem here is that all the leagues have expressed that the fighting games they want are the Capcom games. THe other games have only ever been included because Capcom has said no. That's why on some of the interviews you hear the cringing that MLG et all really want Capcom and want SRK/EVO to help them out with it because Capcom is what counts and they are tired of getting second fiddle games that don't really show off fighting games. You can object all you want here, but it is what it is and MLG flat out said it.

There is another issue, esports destroys gaming communities. Don't believe me? You won't ever see a non blizzard RTS, the FPS roster is actually fairly static as well. They just don't have the time. Once the top flight game is picked, the rest kinda fizzle off and never come back. So there is some worry that once SF4 gets to be the esports game, blazblue, skullgirls, KOF, MK, and the long list of other games out there will simply get ground into the dust and die off.

The concerns are legit. You're either in the camp (as MLG, EG, djwheat and others are) that Capcom needs to let them use SF4 and really up the prize money and let this shit blow up. Or you're in the camp that all games should have a showing the culture is far more important than stacking a few peoples wallets.