vVv's New Controversial Article

[Juggs]

Made another response to the article: http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/topic/53956-9-to-5-aint-for-suckas/page__view__findpost__p__493014

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

1. SC2, League of Legends, CoD, Halo and all sponsor games in a league from leagues such as IPL, WCG, MLG and so on

2. The phrase e-sports is stupid. Its simply a term for competitive gaming but given the title e-sports to validate itself by using the word "sports". In the context that is being used e-sports refers to league sponsored games

3. Read ultradavid's article. Its on SRK. This question alone deserves an article like ultradavids.

4. Read david's article. You can't compare the FGC to communities of e-sports. Even the communities within e-sports are different from each other. (look at MOBA and then look at FPS). The negatives to the FGC are fear that they won't allow things such as 1 open tourney 2) community commentators 3) censorship 4) dividing the FGC by choosing a select game to be sponsor and etc.

5. Its not evo feels like its being threaten. You are getting the wrong vibe. Its that the professional leagues will do fighting games the way they see fit and divide the FGC. The FGC wants the professional leagues to first understand the difference between the two cultures so that if they do work together it will succeed and not repeat past mistakes.

6. A lot of people are in support of the FGC joining e-sports but at the same time want to do it right. Not have invitational only, or a Code S and a Code A bracket or anything like that.


Honestly the leagues are basically saying there are two options. You can 1) join us or 2) stay where you are "underground". When in reality there is alternatives to leagues and that it is not wrong for the FGC to look for that alternative

BIG NOTE
By having the FGC be a part of the professional leagues and e-sports, smaller games/scenes will be left out. Realistically MLG and other leagues will not support/sponsor like 5-6 fighting games. Guess what? games get left out. When games get left out, they become more niche.

Ill read Ultra's article asap

what im gathering so far is that if this were to happen the FGC would need a panel made up of a representatives from each Fighting Game (AE, MVC, MK, Tekken, etc) to create its own Players Association to work in agreement with Esports (this title is stupid). I hate to say it, but kind of like MLB, NFL, NBA.

Obviously more positives would be more money, hence more players hence more competition hence a lot more press and activity throughout.

Negatives im seeing off the bat is that by aligning with ESports there's possibility of some games succeeding greater than others leaving the smaller games out to die. These games will receive permanently a lot less love and therefor become less relevant but honestly who do you blame for that really?

Im gonna read david's article and ill be back .

Personally if EVO is threatened in any way by Esports then the players win because any 2 party s fighting over us and our business is a win. Almost like a bidding war.

I for one would recommend FGC Esports memberships to help keep statistics, news, etc etc properly done.

 

[Tim Static]

Personally if EVO is threatened in any way by Esports then the players win because any 2 party s fighting over us and our business is a win. Almost like a bidding war.

not if the players & communities best interests arent taken into consideration. if its just about money then we are all doomed.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

not if the players & communities best interests arent taken into consideration. if its just about money then we are all doomed.

yea you're right which is why i think the FGC needs to be working 50/50 w esports to make sure it is done correctly.

Again the FGC Board needs to have one Representative for each game

 

[RagingNight]

Ill read Ultra's article asap

what im gathering so far is that if this were to happen the FGC would need a panel made up of a representatives from each Fighting Game (AE, MVC, MK, Tekken, etc) to create its own Players Association to work in agreement with Esports (this title is stupid). I hate to say it, but kind of like MLB, NFL, NBA.

Obviously more positives would be more money, hence more players hence more competition hence a lot more press and activity throughout.

Negatives im seeing off the bat is that by aligning with ESports there's possibility of some games succeeding greater than others leaving the smaller games out to die. These games will receive permanently a lot less love and therefor become less relevant but honestly who do you blame for that really?

Im gonna read david's article and ill be back .

Personally if EVO is threatened in any way by Esports then the players win because any 2 party s fighting over us and our business is a win. Almost like a bidding war.

I for one would recommend FGC Esports memberships to help keep statistics, news, etc etc properly done.

EVO is a community run tourney though. Look at tom cannon and Mr. Wizard, they have personally ran tourney before EVO was even called EVO. Look at the commentators, its people in the community. When SF4 was on, SF4 commentated. When MK9 was on MK people commentated. When Tekken was on, Aris and Tekken people commentated. EVO is truly a community run tourney;1) its open to ANYBODY and ANYWHERE and NO LIMIT of attendants. 2) theres plenty of BYOC so the community can have casuals. 3) Anybody can approach anybody, no player lounge or anything to separate spectators from players.

Think about it, if esports/leagues want to compete with EVO. Guess what happens to the NECs, SCR, Season Beatings, Canada Cup and the Final Rounds? They get destroyed because nobody logically would choose a tourney that pays considerably less than a corporate sponsor tourney.

edit

Look at EVO attempt to get corporate involved in 2010. They had G4 Adam Sessler commentating instead of somebody like James Chen or UltraDavid. It was a total disaster. He was saying things that made no sense. He didn't even put the effort to learn the game he was commentating.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

The lack of respect disgusts me.

 

[Tim Static]

EVO is a community run tourney though. Look at tom cannon and Mr. Wizard, they have personally ran tourney before EVO was even called EVO. Look at the commentators, its people in the community. When SF4 was on, SF4 commentated. When MK9 was on MK people commentated. When Tekken was on, Aris and Tekken people commentated. EVO is truly a community run tourney;1) its open to ANYBODY and ANYWHERE and NO LIMIT of attendants. 2) theres plenty of BYOC so the community can have casuals. 3) Anybody can approach anybody, no player lounge or anything to separate spectators from players.

Think about it, if esports/leagues want to compete with EVO. Guess what happens to the NECs, SCR, Season Beatings, Canada Cup and the Final Rounds? They get destroyed because nobody logically would choose a tourney that pays considerably less than a corporate sponsor tourney.

edit

Look at EVO attempt to get corporate involved in 2010. They had G4 Adam Sessler commentating instead of somebody like James Chen or UltraDavid. It was a total disaster. He was saying things that made no sense. He didn't even put the effort to learn the game he was commentating.

hammer ==> nail.

Exactly. great post.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

EVO is a community run tourney though. Look at tom cannon and Mr. Wizard, they have personally ran tourney before EVO was even called EVO. Look at the commentators, its people in the community. When SF4 was on, SF4 commentated. When MK9 was on MK people commentated. When Tekken was on, Aris and Tekken people commentated. EVO is truly a community run tourney;1) its open to ANYBODY and ANYWHERE and NO LIMIT of attendants. 2) theres plenty of BYOC so the community can have casuals. 3) Anybody can approach anybody, no player lounge or anything to separate spectators from players.

Think about it, if esports/leagues want to compete with EVO. Guess what happens to the NECs, SCR, Season Beatings, Canada Cup and the Final Rounds? They get destroyed because nobody logically would choose a tourney that pays considerably less than a corporate sponsor tourney.

Ahh i see what you're saying - my thoughts are becoming more clear - LOL sorry again, im totally "green" to this subject

What about if the Evo circuit (fr, nec, scr, etc) worked w Esports?

For example all the above tourneys are well ran IMO for the most part and what if the esports organizers use the organization skills, location, of these events and just collaborated with them to make them grander?

Or are you saying that if FGC joined up with EsPORTS then these events would basically shut down because esports would run the FGC through their own exclusive events?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

hammer ==> nail.

Exactly. great post.

Lol yea that hit for me better

I honestly hope my lack of knowledge and asking all these questions is clearing it up for everyone else whose in my boat so we can all comment further

Ill take the "dummy" bullet for this one

 

[Tim Static]

Lol yea that hit for me better

I honestly hope my lack of knowledge and asking all these questions is clearing it up for everyone else whose in my boat so we can all comment further

Ill take the "dummy" bullet for this one

Its all good. Im no expert on this fully myself. I just dont want to see.........McDonald's come and overtake your locally owned Burger Joint. lol

I want the FGC to be about the players and the games, the players playing the games not money money money. Maybe this is just because i come from the MK side of things haha. i dont know. i just dont like where this is all headed, but people like Jerry are thus proving why I dont care for and dont respect this "esports" BS.

 

[RagingNight]

Ahh i see what you're saying - my thoughts are becoming more clear - LOL sorry again, im totally "green" to this subject

What about if the Evo circuit (fr, nec, scr, etc) worked w Esports?

For example all the above tourneys are well ran IMO for the most part and what if the esports organizers use the organization skills, location, of these events and just collaborated with them to make them grander?

Or are you saying that if FGC joined up with EsPORTS then these events would basically shut down because esports would run the FGC through their own exclusive events?

the community run tourneys CAN NOT be a part of esports/leagues because esports itself is divided. You have MLG, you have IPL you have WCG, you have Dreamhack and so on. All of those aren't affiliated with each other, they are their own separate organizations and thus how would the community tourney know which one to work with and which one not to?

Also you have the problem that some leagues are a series of tournaments like MLG. MLG has already like atleast 4+ games to work with that have large demographics. Now you want to ask them to plan around the FGC when the FGC is not even represented by a single game? Its not going to happen. Logistically it would be insane. The FGC can easily be represented by at least 6 different games.

The main realistic approach is one that will divide the community. Its basically the leagues/esports taking the biggest game (in this case SF4) and only that one game. But we can already see the consequences of that.

Ideally, the FGC needs a represented group or something that is elected by their respective community to discuss issues such as these. For instance TYM has no right to speak for the Tekken community and vice versa.

edit

Like i said there is a way to make e-sports and the FGC to work. The issue is finding that way to make it work. I would love to see the FGC to grow bigger and get more sponsors and players getting paid. All of that is good, but not at the expense of losing the FGC unity.

 

[Ashenar]

I was looking forward to going to this years mlg orlando after hearing that north carolina had mortal kombat in it was kinda sad not to see it there but I still went and the mlg experience was rather nice.

 

[RagingNight]

Honestly an article/front page needs to be created to have a discussion on TYM part of how they feel about this subject. Its one that possibly concerns the future of FGC and MK is part of the FGC.

I feel like a lot of people don't even know what is happening outside of MK and they deserve to be at least given the opportunity to learn of the situation that involves them. VVV article not only paints the 3 particular people he mention in bad light but all people of the FGC.


All of course is my opinion.

edit

Mostly because the off-topic section is rarely browsed in comparison to most threads, and I view this as "news" worthy since it is essentially Fighting Game News

 

[matterovermind]

Lots of fallacious and specious arguments/points raised in that vVv article. I can't help feel that this dude is a fraud. Oh, and very condescending... like 'daddy knows best'. gtfo.

 

[STORMS]

I don't know the story and in a way I don't care, but it's a shame that this might put a shadow over Krayzie, REO and CD jr now.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I don't know the story and in a way I don't care, but it's a shame that this might put a shadow over Krayzie, REO and CD jr now.

I honestly respect those 3 despite any crap like this

those 3 have earned it from all of us

 

[STORMS]

I honestly respect those 3 despite any crap like this

those 3 have earned it from all of us

I meant to those who don't really know Krayzie, REO and CD jr. They see someone in an MK9 tournament with "vVv" in front of their name and they'll immediately think of this bullshit.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I don't know the story and in a way I don't care, but it's a shame that this might put a shadow over Krayzie, REO and CD jr now.

Definitely agree with this.

This whole thing is a real shame in general.

 

[aj1701]

So I'm seeing this whole community pretty much through this site, so I'm probably out of touch, but if FGs became part of "esports" (bleck, stupid name), it seems like it'd mainly affect the SF players. MK already seems like its separate, ya it piggy backs on SFs tournies (maybe not even all the time), but I get the impression the MK scene would continue on. Am I missing something?

 

[Sao87]

Can i get some basic Questions answered? Quite honestly all this is new to me so before i REALLY respond i want to know what im talking about so i dont look like a total tool bag.

1. What games are considered esports currently?

2. Can I get a brief description of esports?

3. What are the perceived positives and negatives of MK or FGC joining up with Esports

4. Have any of you witnessed these positives/Negatives w evidence in current esport titles?

5. Does EVO organizer feel threatened by esports? (if so i feel this is a good thing for us)

6. Who is in full support of FGC joining Esports?

Ill go with that first and i seriously want to join in the topic but like i said i really want to understand as much as i can before i post out of my ass

1. What games are considered esports currently?

StarCraft 2, Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, Dota, Counter Strike Source, Halo, Gears of War, DOA/Tekken at one point.

2. Can I get a brief description of esports?

eSports is similar to the majors we have within our fighting game community except they are run by organizations in a league type structure with their goal to turn gaming into something similar to sports you see on ESPN.

Think of these teams like a business, vVv is a business. If you go to http://vVvgaming.com at the top you will see other company logos. Gamergrub, Steel Series, Game Servers and Kontrol Freek. Companies like the behind mentioned are paying vVv for what is called experimental marketing. Vvv team members will wear shirts, be pressured to talk highly about these companies (via facebook, twitter, etc) and essentially do all the marketing for vVv.

There are people at the head of that company (in vVv's case it is Lord Jerith), when the receive money in exchange for marketing it is their job to create a budget and manage the individual teams under their wing. Bigger games will get a bigger chunk of the money, I can't speak for their MK division but I imagine that REO if anyone is the only one that is benefiting from having expenses paid for which is why he travels. Other players are just stuck in this never ending vortex of being told to market vVv because as a youngster it is exciting to say you are sponsored, these players don't receive anything. If you don't believe me go onto their site and check out the application process in their forums, all of the dialogue there feels really forced and fake.

In some cases this is a great thing, I know some companies do it well. I've heard rumors that Justin Wong makes 30K salary under EG, Complexity is probably big enough to support that type of salary for its players. Other smaller companies like BLG might fly players to tournaments, pay for registration and hotel fees as well as let the player keep all the money if they were to win a tournament.

Now picture tons of teams with players on the same caliber as REO, CD jr, Detroit, Morty or 16 bit and pretend that all these players were on different teams competing against each other in a league type structure under their team names (similar to the NFL). I've even heard talks about leagues (like MLG) wanting to do something similar to drafts, so maybe some time in the future eSports could go this direction.

The overall goal is to essentially have gaming be as big as other major sports, perhaps have the same amount of money due to sponsors joining the mix and get gaming more professional exposure.

3. What are the perceived positives and negatives of MK or FGC joining up with Esports

First of all I feel like the fighting game community in general is sort of similar to the underground hip hop community.

Think of eSports as radio, and think of our majors as underground music. Musicians want to hear their music on the radio to make money, but in general being on the radio is considered wack by the underground hip hop community because it doesn't play real music.

The issues in the past have always been a fight for control and writing the correct contracts that everyone feels comfortable with. One of the best arguments I've seen against eSports was that the contract agreements are not in our favor.

Lets pretend a company like MLG signed a contract agreement with Capcom to have exclusivity rights to street fighter 4. This could mean that they don't allow majors like NEC, SCR, Devastation, etc to stream their game. Or perhaps they can stream the game but at a fee, this means that tournament organizers would have to pay MLG a chunk of money to give a game we like any exposure.

Or perhaps you tuned into Canada Cup and are familiar with the running 8.95 joke on streams. This was sort of a test run by Jared of twitch TV to give the users the ability to turn off ads in exchange for money, in some cases you aren't able to access streams without paying money.

Gamers are cheap, they're willing to deal with things being smaller as long as its easy and free for them to access.

On the other hand eSports brings so much to the table.

When more companies get involved more money is brought to the table. If more companies are willing to take risks on this experimental marketing which I've mentioned more big teams might pop up, which means more opportunities for more players to get involved.

I would argue that if it wasn't for Dj Wheat (eSports shoutcaster) at Devastation in 2009 the streaming bandwagon might not have caught on so soon. It was him and his team who set the standard for how fighting game streams should be handled and put the pressure on EVO to stop being a "you had to be there" event, to an event with a stream for viewers at home to enjoy.

One day we might have our own channel's on television similar to ESPN with a fighting game, RTS, FPS section showing all of the action similar to sports.

4. Have any of you witnessed these positives/Negatives w evidence in current esport titles?

Everyone here has heard Tom Brady's story about Vanessa/DOA Master. Due to connections they were able to fix a tournament on TV so that DOA Master ran into some girl no where near his skill level in grand finals for 10,000 dollars. This type of exposure makes eSports look really bad.

I've been involved in leagues for counter strike and other games and it was really fun!

They had a ladder system with branches that represented skill level essentially. Players newer to the game had an open division to compete in against people on their level, people who do well in an open season can climb their way up to intermediate competition, professional competition and eventually an invite league of players who attend big eSports events and compete for big money because they are on the same level as someone like the MK pro's I've named above.

5. Does EVO organizer feel threatened by esports? (if so i feel this is a good thing for us)

Yes of course they do. The fighting game community is their baby, they want control over the future of fighting games and corporate payouts just as much as anyone else.

6. Who is in full support of FGC joining Esports?

I'm am pro eSports.

I'm not editing this now, hopefully my one shot at answering these questions (in my opinion) is legible enough.

 

[xZEPPELIx]

None one mentions what happened when Evo partnered with MLG for one year. That left a sour taste in many peoples mouth.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

Yeah, the FGC community is pretty unique and sooo tight together!

Jesus, the FGC is one of the most disrespectful out there when there are "less tourney-ish" games being played. Instead of just not-watching and saying nothing, you get your stream monsters talking shit about the game and it's top players, and also keep on saying how everything that is not Capcom will die soon. The only people who don't openly hate on other games (from the same community) are top players and front pages, and that's because they've got an image to take care of. Anybody else will just jump into the hate-wagon and make the community so unique. Sure, there's hate on different games like Battlefield vs Cod or anybody vs DotA on eSports, but it never gets on "WELL [TOP PLAYER] sucks and can't play other games luuuuuulll"

Ultradavid's article seems a little off to me. He's lacking sources and statistics and just saying things that come to his head off memories that could be wrong. Yeah, there is hype(which is not thx to commentaries), but I don't think that an eventual joint-venture with "eSports" will make the streams boring.

 

[HADOKEN]

we need to do something like this, make an article like this for the mk community.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

Well i feel i should give some light on things given i was in "Esports" (stupid name). I played with a Team in the CPL for a few years in Counterstrike and have played An MLG tourney in Battlefield 2143 also i was in a few Unreal tournaments back when it was starting to take off and people like John(Fatal1ty) were getting popular. Also back in the early days i was in the FGC to an extent with early street fighter games. Now being more involved in the FGC i can really understand feelings going on here. It truly is 2 different worlds while i don't completely agree with either side i see where things are coming from (between Jerith and Davids takes). I personally love the FGC as since i came back into i have been welcomed open armed and that does not happen in FPS communities. Both sides you still earn respect but in FPS pro communities you are beat down until you earn that respect. This is one of the big reasons i left the CPL, i loved my team but outside of them and a select few other people, The community was rude and downright disrepectful. I have not had that among the tournament players in the FGC, both on here and in person at places like EGP, IEbattlegrounds, and WNFs. People like Krayzie, Shords, Xblades, and Tyrant were all very cool right up front not to mention all the others i have met. I must say i have been truly impressed by this community and i say to all here who represent that community to keep that up. Of course not everyone is like this and there are bad eggs but the majority is what matters. At the same time with the Esports community there is always bad eggs and people who say things they shouldn't but, that does not represent the whole community. So take things like this with a grain of salt and remember we are all peers and all gamers. The whole professional Gaming community will want to work together at some point but it has to be the right way and maybe right now that can;t happen but it will.

 

[Dark_Rob]

A polarizing article to be sure. Much of it seems to be aimed at getting the capcom players and event orgainizers on board(albeit by hurling insults at them). To be perfectly honest I have less than affectionate feelings for the Street Fighter community and the capcom community in general. With the exception of a few genuine guys who walk their own path and dont give a fuck what others think like Sabin for instance, the capcom fanboys have never been that kind to us. We are a joke to most of them. So I find it very difficult to give a shit about their internal problems,differences of opinion, drama.

It isnt like MK would ever be included in any of this as the capcom community would never allow it. As long as they harbor these feelings and view us the way that they do the MK community will always be on its own. And Im damn fine with that. I would rather be in a small room with 50 guys that love playing MK then be in a large room with 500 guys with 450 of them snickering and laughing at us.

Alot of people will say Im being naive, that the MK community cant be so insular if we want to grow. That we need to reach out and be part of the FGC as a whole. My anwser to that? Dont look at us like we are the problem. Talk to the Capcom Mafia that shun everything that wasnt birthed by Capcom. It isnt like we havent tried. They dont want us, so fuck em. As long as we have friends like Big Eric or Sweet johnny Cage and LI Joe its not like we are going to lose our tournaments.

If it sounds like Im being a little hateful of FGC's that arent MK, understand its because you can only get told your a piece of shit by someone so many times before you really dont want to hear it anymore and just want them to fuck off.

As far as the vVv article goes. Most of it doesnt apply to us. To the rest of the FGC we dont exist or at best we're the red headed step child. But I do have to ask, in an article so fully directed at capcom players why even mention REO and CD jr's names? In an article that is likely to get alot of heated responses it would be sad to see some of that heat fall on REO and CD jr when they have absolutely nothing to do with whats being said.

Personally I have no problem with vVv.....................................so long as they always treat REO and CD jr right and with the respect they deserve.