General/Other - Summoner VS Quan Chi bat Vortex training

[Tom Brady]

Quan Chi doesn't win off a touch. That's some serious overstating.

For one thing, Sub Zero's corner carry is such that you can legitimately carry anyone to the corner within 15 seconds of the match.

So continuing where we left off, you knock Quan Chi down. You run in do your 50/50. I guess right.

I guess right and you do b33 into MB Clone to keep me on the side of the screen you want. I can't jump. I could poke, but you can jump and catch me with a cross up during the recovery of poke. Worst case scenario, you can do a throw into clone. Now I'm frozen and you can cross up again into a combo that puts me in the corner.

I guess right on b2. Nothing happens. You're -13, true, but what can Quan punish with?

Not b2, that starts in 15.
Not b1, that starts in 14.
Not f2, that starts in 16.
Not Rune, that starts in 17.
Not d4, starts in 15.
Not d1, doesn't reach.
Not d3, doesn't reach.

Even with b1, you can backdash or use armor.

So say i block a b2 and try to punish, you can use armor on slide and now I'm cornered.

Once Quan Chi is cornered vs Sub Zero, what can he do?

Not armor. Even if i armor the b2 the clone catches him on the way down.

Or the b33 beats the armor into a freeze into a hkd into another guess.

I could try a njp. But b2 has AA properties, and you could low profile or simply stand there and let it whiff and punish. I could try to poke through the clone, which takes away the clone but doesn't get me out of the corner, especially with his abysmal poke range.

As much as you claim that I'm ignoring your points, you're ignoring mine.

In order to be put in this supposed Touch of Death guess situation, you have to lose the nuetral.

My argument is that you can always play better. There are plenty of ways to blow up Quan in the nuetral. You should try looking into them.

You bring up B33~MB clone or any string into MB clone as if it actually comes out every time. It doesn't and is not a viable option.


I think the ONLY thing people are saying is that there are several times in the vortex when you know exactly where Quan will hit you and you still cannot block it because it's a 1 frame block that can be changed by 1 or more frames if and when the player can even consistently block the initial timing. Even when you do manage to block it, Quan Chi still ends at +14 where you must guess again. I'm not reading anyone say Quan shouldn't have a 50/50 or that MB rune shouldn't be +14. In fact, I don't hear anyone saying Quan should'nt have a vortex either. All I have read is that he shouldn't be able to vortex you into a situation where you cannot block the mix up even when you know which mix up is coming.

What I am however reading is Quan players saying that they in fact should have a vortex with a situation where the player can know where you will strike and still not block it along with being able to end at +14 just in case they do block it. I think everyone here is saying they are ok with the 50/50, are k with the +14, and are ok with the vortex situation. They just aren't ok with making the right guess but they couldn't block it anyway.

Right now this thread has turned into a debate where players are talking about only one aspect of Quan while the Quan players are talking about every aspect except for the one that people are actually debating.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You bring up B33~MB clone or any string into MB clone as if it actually comes out every time. It doesn't and is not a viable option.


I think the ONLY thing people are saying is that there are several times in the vortex when you know exactly where Quan will hit you and you still cannot block it because it's a 1 frame block that can be changed by 1 or more frames if and when the player can even consistently block the initial timing. Even when you do manage to block it, Quan Chi still ends at +14 where you must guess again. I'm not reading anyone say Quan shouldn't have a 50/50 or that MB rune shouldn't be +14. In fact, I don't hear anyone saying Quan should'nt have a vortex either. All I have read is that he shouldn't be able to vortex you into a situation where you cannot block the mix up even when you know which mix up is coming.

What I am however reading is Quan players saying that they in fact should have a vortex with a situation where the player can know where you will strike and still not block it along with being able to end at +14 just in case they do block it. I think everyone here is saying they are ok with the 50/50, are k with the +14, and are ok with the vortex situation. They just aren't ok with making the right guess but they couldn't block it anyway.

Right now this thread has turned into a debate where players are talking about only one aspect of Quan while the Quan players are talking about every aspect except for the one that people are actually debating.

Word for word, this.

I have no idea why the response was 3 posts each with like 10 paragraphs of playing out theoretical neutral play between Sub and Quan.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I like to imagine @I GOT HANDS recruiting the traditional shit-posse and rounding up Quan threads like Romans looking for Jesus.

This is the second Quan thread I've posted in ever, and combined I probably have about 10 posts between the two of them

I can't help how upset my presence makes you sage. But someone has to keep it real every now and again in these threads cause you Quan players are struggling with logic here man the downplay is real as it gets. Websters dictionary defines "downplay" as a hyperlink to this thread. Downplay so strong the Kenshi community asked you what supplements you using in here Downplay so fierce I'm taking notes on how to get Kung Lao Tempest buffs

 

[xInfra Deadx]

This is the second Quan thread I've posted in ever, and combined I probably have about 10 posts between the two of them

I can't help how upset my presence makes you sage. But someone has to keep it real every now and again in these threads cause you Quan players are struggling with logic here man the downplay is real as it gets. Websters dictionary defines "downplay" as a hyperlink to this thread. Downplay so strong the Kenshi community asked you what supplements you using in here Downplay so fierce I'm taking notes on how to get Kung Lao Tempest buffs

 

[Rude]

Word for word, this.

I have no idea why the response was 3 posts each with like 10 paragraphs of playing out theoretical neutral play between Sub and Quan.

You contributed to that theoretical match up talk. It was done to illustrate how you can win the nuetral vs Quan and how he's not some Uber Broken/One-Hit-Kill character, which was a narrative you were supporting. But yeah, only now go ahead and pretend like you don't know what the talk was about.

You usually ignore talking points that don't suit your obvious agenda.

Just because someone posts a video of them failing to do something does not mean it cannot be done.

Just because you're not doing something correctly early on doesn't mean you won't get better at it overtime.

As the game gets older, people's blocking will get better. You think this is the only fighting game that has such tight blocking windows?

Where as i don't, and have said before, want to see ANY characters nerfed anymore. Any of them. I am against excessive nerfing and have been as far back as The Sub Zero scare. I'd rather spend my time learning this game than bitch, pissing, moaning, and begging for nerfs to this game.

Tom, you have people demanding that a move called, "Low Swoop" hit mid and you DON'T think this thread has gathered the torch and pitchfork of Quan Chi nerf demanders?

 

[JDM]

LMAO how does this game not fit a 2/3 setting, y'all are fucking ridiculous

Maybe cause people literally lose entire rounds just because they got hit into the corner once? Do you not watch this game competitively or something? Injustice and UMVC3 were switched to 3/5 settings because of how fast the games are and how hard it was to block. There's no reason MKX should stay 2/3 imo.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

But think about it this way, Kabal's dash cancel pressure in mk9 was pretty hard to do consistently too. But people kept labbing and labbing to get down the timing. After a little while it was perfected and low and behold, we saw kabal, kabal, kabal and he was winning everything. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean we won't get there eventually and once we do, it will be a noticeable problem. Hell, by then it might even be too late because NRS might be finished with patches/dlc and working on injustice 2 for all we know. But, if history repeats itself, (which history is known to do) it will be a problem that Quan Chi can do this.

Kabal wasnt winning everything. REO was winning everything.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

@Rude Although I agree, you are absolutely wasting your time on the deafest of ears.

@JDM 3/5 seems dependent on what TOs feel is best. Frankly, I like 3/5 because MK is awesome and it allows players to properly adjust, so we get more of a "true" victor out of the set.

@I GOT HANDS This thread is nothing at all what it was intended to be.
On a personal note, no, you don't upset me. Verily, compared to Altaire you're merely an uninspired troll, and that's usually how I interpret your messages.

@everyone else, the vortex might get altered in the future. Who cares, I'll still use Quan. As for the all-important now, I've really no other advice than to practice blocking, which evidently no proponents of a vortex nerf have done or even considered.

I'm requesting these videos go somewhere else, the poison that is this thread to be closed, and for all future "inquiries" to go here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/quan-chi-summoner-variation-discussion-thread.52701/

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

My two cents...

Do you have options to get out of Quan's pseudo unblockables?

Most definitely yes. All NJP versions can be backdashed as shown, can even be armoured if mistimed by the user (which can happen), or a short run forward can avoid them. While the oh/low after st4 or f21 are a seemingly tight gap, it is STILL possible to block these.

Do I think it's easy to see what setup he's going for, react to, then have a reasonable attempt at blocking?

God no. The power of the pseudo unblockable is not just in the timing, but in catching people when they're not expecting it. My plan with quan is typically zone, then go for the unblockable when it'll close out the round. Using it sparsely make's it harder to react to.

What happens when the unblockable is indeed, blocked?

Well, you'll get a free punish if quan doesn't have meter (and btw, you can armour/backdash between b32 rune even if he does...), and then you NEED to stay on top of him as he's waking up. As long as you're hitting buttons while he's getting up there's very little he can do. If your character has any half decent kind of pressure, your punish into knockdown should be the round. And if it's not, then you need to reevaluate how you're playing the match.

So is he a good character, and does he need to be nerfed?

He's of course a good character, but once you know the matchup you realise that he can't win off of his mixups alone, and when you're punishing things correctly quick work is made of the king of cheese.


If you're at all unconvinced by what I've posted, just watch this match between Michaelangelo and Reo, which perfectly embodies everything I've said. It's also important to point out the REO didn't once try to escape the njp mixups after d3 (which are DEFINITELY not + enough give you a free njp overhead low mixup), and he also wasn't armouring through b32 rune. If he did, I'm sure this match would've been much shorter.

 

[ando1184]

Kabal wasnt winning everything. REO was winning everything.

In the beginning Michelangelo won everything with kabal. Then there was a train of kabal players and then finally Reo took up the mantle as best kabal. Kabal was winning the majority, yes there were some Kung Laos and cyrax's too but don't try and deter from the fact that kabal became the best character in the game.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You contributed to that theoretical match up talk. It was done to illustrate how you can win the nuetral vs Quan and how he's not some Uber Broken/One-Hit-Kill character, which was a narrative you were supporting. But yeah, only now go ahead and pretend like you don't know what the talk was about.

You usually ignore talking points that don't suit your obvious agenda.

Just because someone posts a video of them failing to do something does not mean it cannot be done.

Just because you're not doing something correctly early on doesn't mean you won't get better at it overtime.

As the game gets older, people's blocking will get better. You think this is the only fighting game that has such tight blocking windows?

Where as i don't, and have said before, want to see ANY characters nerfed anymore. Any of them. I am against excessive nerfing and have been as far back as The Sub Zero scare. I'd rather spend my time learning this game than bitch, pissing, moaning, and begging for nerfs to this game.

Tom, you have people demanding that a move called, "Low Swoop" hit mid and you DON'T think this thread has gathered the torch and pitchfork of Quan Chi nerf demanders?

I'm not at all dude.. You are the one ignoring my statement. I have no agenda, I brought up a point in here, and I have yet to see it addressed. It's ironic that you make these statements, because Quan Chi is no different to me than any other character that I don't play, I have no agenda here, where as your bias is obvious, blatant, evident, and accentuated harder with each post.



All you have responded to is with a bunch of the same pointless statement spread out through like 3 posts, in an unnecessary lengthy and obnoxiously long manner. Yes, you explained how nothing is guaranteed off the neutral. You made 3 posts of what I described at the time as "common knowledge". Please, stop acting like this justifies his offense being pseudo unblockable resets.

We know Quan Chi has to LAND a trance for it to do its job. The fact is, once it lands, you have a tiny frame block link to block the reset, plus a 50/50 to guess, PLUS a flexible timing, plus no-way to react to any of it.



You really don't think he'd be just fine without the pseudo unblockable, but keeping all the rest of the shit?

Considering the way most QC players have been playing him so far is WITHOUT using the pseudo-unblockabable shit, I mean top 5 at EVO didn't use it, kinda shows that this is NOT necessary for his offense and he would be fine if you CAN block when you guess it.



On the other hand, you have completely ignored this point the first 3 times, and I'm sure you will redirect conversation for something more suited to what you know you are capable of arguing against, once again.

You QC players act like we want his Vortex taken away. Just let it be blocked when it's guessed right. The execution on that block is ridiculously impractical

 

[I GOT HANDS]

@I GOT HANDS This thread is nothing at all what it was intended to be.
On a personal note, no, you don't upset me. Verily, compared to Altaire you're merely an uninspired troll, and that's usually how I interpret your messages.

I'm "trolling" because I have a different opinion to you? Got it. I support my statements with logic, in fact much more solid than any of yours. I think the issue here is that I disagree with you, and this is the easy way out for you.

This is like the 4th message you've made sending shots at me, and I've never addressed you once. I kinda think you might be just a LITTLE upset bro. If not, stick to the discussion and I will too. You're the one trolling.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I'm "trolling" because I have a different opinion to you? Got it. I support my statements with logic, in fact much more solid than any of yours. I think the issue here is that I disagree with you, and this is the easy way out for you.

This is like the 4th message you've made sending shots at me, and I've never addressed you once. I kinda think you might be just a LITTLE upset bro. If not, stick to the discussion and I will too. You're the one trolling.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Point thoroughly reinforced again, thank you my man

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

In the beginning Michelangelo won everything with kabal. Then there was a train of kabal players and then finally Reo took up the mantle as best kabal. Kabal was winning the majority, yes there were some Kung Laos and cyrax's too but don't try and deter from the fact that kabal became the best character in the game.

Im not denying that Kabal was the best in the game. Im saying No other Kabal really had the success Reo did. Michaelangelo did a block infinite with Kabal. when that was nerfed he didnt have much success. The character didnt win everything, REO did.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Point thoroughly reinforced again, thank you my man

Actually, you need to pipe it down a notch. Plain and simple.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Actually, you need to pipe it down a notch. Plain and simple.

Trying to silence opposing logic simply because its stronger than your supporting argument?

Trolling with gifs multiple posts in a row, in lieu of a single logical response?

Literally REINFORCING the statement made that you guys should stick to the discussion, instead of trolling and ignoring counter logic?






"pipe down sonny, we trying to AVOID logical arguments in here, not have a sensible discussion!"




I like you. You make it too obvious.

 

[Ryncage]

Actually, you need to pipe it down a notch. Plain and simple.

shitposting all your epic maymays isnt how you get that message across, and gets you promptly ignored by those you wish to calm down.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

This is like the 4th message you've made sending shots at me

Citations please.

If you've got something specifically for me (or if what you have to say to me is filling any diapers you may be wearing), PM me.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

This thread is a disaster. I'll leave one last comment and then I hope this thread dies soon because it's not working out.

I personally would like the pseudo unblockable removed. Give quan other buffs, idc. I simply think this kind of thing is not good on principle. Being forced to deal with something that you even if you know what your opponent is going to do you may not successfully defend against it because your only defense is on the edge of human capability is bullshit. It's not like a one frame link either because it is entirely on the quan chi player's terms. I just think this is terrible design and it should be removed on principle.

 

[Rude]

I'm not at all dude.. You are the one ignoring my statement. I have no agenda, I brought up a point in here, and I have yet to see it addressed. It's ironic that you make these statements, because Quan Chi is no different to me than any other character that I don't play, I have no agenda here, where as your bias is obvious, blatant, evident, and accentuated harder with each post.



All you have responded to is with a bunch of the same pointless statement spread out through like 3 posts, in an unnecessary lengthy and obnoxiously long manner. Yes, you explained how nothing is guaranteed off the neutral. You made 3 posts of what I described at the time as "common knowledge". Please, stop acting like this justifies his offense being pseudo unblockable resets.

We know Quan Chi has to LAND a trance for it to do its job. The fact is, once it lands, you have a tiny frame block link to block the reset, plus a 50/50 to guess, PLUS a flexible timing, plus no-way to react to any of it.



You really don't think he'd be just fine without the pseudo unblockable, but keeping all the rest of the shit?

Considering the way most QC players have been playing him so far is WITHOUT using the pseudo-unblockabable shit, I mean top 5 at EVO didn't use it, kinda shows that this is NOT necessary for his offense and he would be fine if you CAN block when you guess it.



On the other hand, you have completely ignored this point the first 3 times, and I'm sure you will redirect conversation for something more suited to what you know you are capable of arguing against, once again.

You QC players act like we want his Vortex taken away. Just let it be blocked when it's guessed right. The execution on that block is ridiculously impractical

I have addressed your points, except the ones that other people have addressed.

You're right, people don't want Quan's vortex taken away. Except the multiple posters who DEMANDED Bat Swoop be a mid instead of a low.

But you know what?

You don't agree with me.

I will never agree with you.

Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. This thread is going nowhere.

 

[Ryncage]

I have addressed your points, except the ones that other people have addressed.

You're right, people don't want Quan's vortex taken away. Except the multiple posters who DEMANDED Bat Swoop be a mid instead of a low.

But you know what?

You don't agree with me.

I will never agree with you.

Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. This thread is going nowhere.

People dont need to add a pretty please or explicitly say "this is just a suggestion" to meet your "clearly not a demand" requirments.
And even if they were demands, so what?
Everyone everywhere makes stupid balance suggestions about everything all the time. The outcry here isnt even close to the kneejerk tanya reaction.
Quote and respond to those specific individuals if you want, but dont generalize their desires and project them like its everyone critics opinion or expectation.

 

[Rude]

People dont need to add a pretty please or explicitly say "this is just a suggestion" to meet your "clearly not a demand" requirments.
And even if they were demands, so what?
Everyone everywhere makes stupid balance suggestions about everything all the time. The outcry here isnt even close to the kneejerk tanya reaction.
Quote and respond to those specific individuals if you want, but dont generalize their desires and project them like its everyone critics opinion or expectation.

At least we can agree that stupid balance suggestions were made!!

Thumbs up!!!

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I have addressed your points, except the ones that other people have addressed.

You're right, people don't want Quan's vortex taken away. Except the multiple posters who DEMANDED Bat Swoop be a mid instead of a low.

But you know what?

You don't agree with me.

I will never agree with you.

Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. This thread is going nowhere.

Once again, you Strawman the argument. I didn't once say anything about low bat being a mid nor do I agree with that suggestion, that's other people's words. You are literally incapable of addressing counter logic, I said you would change the subject from what I was saying, and you blatantly did just that and started talking about what other people were saying LOL. At this stage you are a mockery of your own argument as you as such a stereotypical caricature of a downplayer the way everything you do fits the the mild so perfectly.

At least we can agree that stupid balance suggestions were made!!

Thumbs up!!!

Yeah I'd say the cake topper of these would be the suggestion of using a block macro on PC solves the game design problem. Yeah, that'd likely be the worst one.

 

[Rude]

Once again, you Strawman the argument. I didn't once say anything about low bat being a mid nor do I agree with that suggestion, that's other people's words. You are literally incapable of addressing counter logic, I said you would change the subject from what I was saying, and you blatantly did just that and started talking about what other people were saying LOL. At this stage you are a mockery of your own argument as you as such a stereotypical caricature of a downplayer the way everything you do fits the the mild so perfectly.




Yeah I'd say the cake topper of these would be the suggestion of using a block macro on PC solves the game design problem. Yeah, that'd likely be the worst one.

You're the one that brought up people not wanting the vortex taken away.

My comment was me pointing out an aspect of the vortex that posters demanded be changed to mid.

I can't be strawmanning a topic YOU BROUGHT UP.

You seriously can't be THIS fucking stupid.

To directly address your point: You think that it isn't fair that Quan Chi has this "unblockable" move. That's your biggest talking point, right?

Now, because you have the attention span of a mite, you haven't actually listened to the many times i addressed this exact thing.

So I'll do it here:
1) It is not a true unblockable and i do not believe that just because people struggle blocking it NOW that they will ALWAYS struggle with it. I believe that it will get better overtime as the community levels up.

2) In order for him to apply it, he has to win the nuetral. Which you can also do. This set up is no less powerful than anything other characters like Shinnok, Cassie, Liu Kang, etc can do. If you nerf this, nerf their dirt as well.

3) I have never downplayed the character. Again, because reading comprehension is a problem for you, and because you clearly don't understand the meaning of words, i have said in this very thread that Quan Chi was a top 3 zoner. That his mix ups are extremely difficult to deal with and his offense is powerful. This is factually true.

I have also said that his only armor move is quite bad, can be beaten out by many things, and that his pokes are abysmal for escaping pressure. I also stated that ge loses to characters with block infinites on him. This is also factually true.

4) You accuse me of bias. This again proves to me how little you pay attention. So, since you missed the many, many times I've said it, I'll say it one last time: I don't want any characters to get nerfed. Not just mine. Any. I want NO NERFS to ANY characters, and that includes mine. If you look back you will see an established precedent of me being against nerfs. I was against nerfing Tanya. I was against nerfing Sub Zero. I am against nerfing Shinnok and I am against nerfing Kung Lao. So if i apply my same standard for my main to everyone, how am i biased, fool? I don't believe in crying for nerfs to fix our problems. If this game never saw another patch, i would continue playing it.

So where am i downplaying? Or do you not know what facts are?

To summarize: You have an opinion. You're entitled to it.

I don't agree with it.

Let's end it there.