General/Other - Summoner VS Quan Chi bat Vortex training

[Sage Leviathan]

What the ever-loving fuck is going on in here?

We have people who don't know the definition of consistency, people who want Low Bat to hit mid, people who still don't know how to exploit MBRune or poke through b32. Hell, we got one guy who doesn't even know OHs and Lows that hit within a few frames actually cancel both properties and become a mid.

Tom posted some videos practicing against Summoner... in the Quan forums for some reason? Whatever, he's improving as a player, the videos implied nothing but that.
Things were thrown amuck by the 12th post!

Why are people asking Tom what to do against Summoner? Why not ask someone who mains Summoner?

 

[legion666]

Block macro.
I lost it. Simply lost it. Nearly pissed myself laughed so hard.
But yeah, agree with hands and donny. Nothing more to add, and neither do you really.

Yeah! I probably went over the top with that one)))) glad it made you laugh)
I am sorry, I don't play on PC and never dealt with macros)))
But I was under an assumption that if you can do a macro for a series of offensive moves, you could do the same for the defensive purposes)

 

[Rude]

The character doesn't need to be nerfed.

Now, i know the popular talking point is that tournament results don't matter when discussing balance. Believe it or not, I'm willing to accept that premise. Of course.

But you see, if we're willing to accept that premise, than all those who campeigned for Tanya nerfs because of four Tanya's in the top 8 are in an awkward position.

You can't have it both ways.

To be clear, I'm not saying that pre-patch Tanya was "fine" or anything like that. What I am saying is that you can't cherry pick your standards for normalizations at random.

Either it matters, or it doesn't.

 

[Rude]

Now, to the meat of my point: Yes, Quan Chi's mix ups are extremely difficult to block consistently.

Of course they are. They're supposed to be. That's the whole point behind the variation. In exchange for poor defense and wake up game he gets very oppressive offense. But you're right, I've made this point before.

So here is another: Get over it. No, really. Get over it.

You see, in order to be put in the pseudo unblockable situation, you have to get put into a trance.

How does Quan get you into trance?

Off b2.
Off b324.
Off anti-air b1, standing 1, or njp.

(The above are just examples)

So how do you stop these moves?

Well, you could stand just outside b2 range, bait the move and punsh. Even if you don't have an advancing string or special fast enough, you would at least get a run-in to pressure.

And we already know how Summoner handles being pressured.

My point is this: Play better.
Play smarter.
Go into training mode and practice.
Not just blocking his mix ups, but practice containing him. Practice dealing with his space control.

Play better footsies. See, before he can apply his gameplan, he has to beat you in the nuetral. Even if you're blocking b2 into a 50/50, that's your fault. You spaced yourself poorly and let him hit you.

You know, when I'm stuck in Erron Black corner loops in Marksman...

Or failing at Fuzzying a pseudo unblockable in the corner from Cassie's MB Drone...

Even getting hit by Cage's overhead because I made thevl wrong read and crouch blocked expexting a poke...


It's my fault.
It's not MK X's fault.
I didn't play well enough.
I made the mistake my opponent needed me to make to get his/her game going.

What I'm trying to say is that instead of bitching and moaning about characters, try harder.

A lot of characters in this game have dirt and really fucked up set ups and strategies. That's the game we play.

Break down the nuetral and figure out what you need to do to apply your gameplan on your opponent.

"But Rude, didn't you campeign for a faster poke?"

Ah, I sure did. The only exception i feel needs to be made is for block infinites. That should never be a thing.

But you know what? If that never gets addressed, I have secondaries that i can use. I'll accept the game as is and do my best to be a better player.

That is the point of TYM, right?
To become better players?

Or make a bunch of nerf and buff threads.

Whatever.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Now, to the meat of my point: Yes, Quan Chi's mix ups are extremely difficult to block consistently.

Of course they are. They're supposed to be. That's the whole point behind the variation. In exchange for poor defense and wake up game he gets very oppressive offense. But you're right, I've made this point before.

So here is another: Get over it. No, really. Get over it.

You see, in order to be put in the pseudo unblockable situation, you have to get put into a trance.

How does Quan get you into trance?

Off b2.
Off b324.
Off anti-air b1, standing 1, or njp.

(The above are just examples)

So how do you stop these moves?

Well, you could stand just outside b2 range, bait the move and punsh. Even if you don't have an advancing string or special fast enough, you would at least get a run-in to pressure.

And we already know how Summoner handles being pressured.

My point is this: Play better.
Play smarter.
Go into training mode and practice.
Not just blocking his mix ups, but practice containing him. Practice dealing with his space control.

Play better footsies. See, before he can apply his gameplan, he has to beat you in the nuetral. Even if you're blocking b2 into a 50/50, that's your fault. You spaced yourself poorly and let him hit you.

You know, when I'm stuck in Erron Black corner loops in Marksman...

Or failing at Fuzzying a pseudo unblockable in the corner from Cassie's MB Drone...

Even getting hit by Cage's overhead because I made thevl wrong read and crouch blocked expexting a poke...


It's my fault.
It's not MK X's fault.
I didn't play well enough.
I made the mistake my opponent needed me to make to get his/her game going.

What I'm trying to say is that instead of bitching and moaning about characters, try harder.

A lot of characters in this game have dirt and really fucked up set ups and strategies. That's the game we play.

Break down the nuetral and figure out what you need to do to apply your gameplan on your opponent.

"But Rude, didn't you campeign for a faster poke?"

Ah, I sure did. The only exception i feel needs to be made is for block infinites. That should never be a thing.

But you know what? If that never gets addressed, I have secondaries that i can use. I'll accept the game as is and do my best to be a better player.

That is the point of TYM, right?
To become better players?

Or make a bunch of nerf and buff threads.

Whatever.

It's funny because this would be a really good thing to say to practically everything that gets brought up on tym EXCEPT for this. You can't "get better at blocking it", it's pseudo unblockable, and it's completely random, its unreactable, AND it's a 50/50. The only change I want to see is the pseudo unblockable gone, so that we CAN practice getting better and guessing out of his offense. I thought we agreed that this was a good change?

Quan might have crappy defenses. But he doesn't have "lose the game off one connect" defense, and thats exactly what he has offensively. I want to stop hearing this shit about "but he has no wake ups!" as though it means his offense should be this level of absurdity, his block button is as good as everyone elses after a knockdown. However, in reverse, against Quan our block button may as well be non-existent once the combo starts.

 

[Rude]

It's funny because this would be a really good thing to say to practically everything that gets brought up on tym EXCEPT for this. You can't "get better at blocking it", it's pseudo unblockable, and it's completely random, its unreactable, AND it's a 50/50. The only change I want to see is the pseudo unblockable gone, so that we CAN practice getting better and guessing out of his offense. I thought we agreed that this was a good change?

Quan might have crappy defenses. But he doesn't have "lose the game off one connect" defense, and thats exactly what he has offensively. I want to stop hearing this shit about "but he has no wake ups!" as though it means his offense should be this level of absurdity, his block button is as good as everyone elses after a knockdown. However, in reverse, against Quan our block button may as well be non-existent once the combo starts.

I'm sorry, I forgot that breakers don't exist in this game. Silly me. Also, It's a 50/50. Which means you could guess right. "But MB RUNE!" you say. Well, any variation of B234 into MB Rune is interruptable, as well as a b2 follow up off MB Rune unless he does b234. What more do you want? He's a setplay character.

Before you can be in this supposedly "because Tom Brady posted it I accept it without Questioning" pseudo unblockable, Quan has to win the nuetral.

Find out where Quan is weak in the nuetral. Exploit it. You play Sub Zero, right?

If you're outside b2 range, put out a clone. Of course, if he reads that he could Rune or Trance, but you could reach yomi level three and use MB Clone and jump if he tries a rune, or slide, and now its your turn.

This is just an example, btw. I'm sure the full cast has answers to Quan's nuetral game.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Silly me as well, forgetting Quan Chi is the only member of the cast who apparently isn't allowed to use breaker? Because that argument can be used just as easily to counter anything you have to say about his defense being so bad that it justifies his offense. That works both ways.


But basically, your opinion is that Quan Chi's neutral is SO bad, that he deserves to win the game off any one touch, with a less than 1% chance of blocking the resets.

No, i'm not taking TB's word for it, I labbed it out myself, and even knowing exactly when it's coming it took a ridiculous amount of practice to get it even once, impossible to make consistent, and this is all forgetting for a second that even if I could do it everytime (LOL!) this isn't just a set string, its a freaking 50/50 PLUS flexible timing. You'd think that is enough, but apparently you want 1 frame block links ON TOP OF IT. I don't want to hear the age old come back about Street Fighter players landing 1 frame links all the time either, thats something with set consistent timing that they have labbed to close to perfection. The timing on this is dependant on whatever the QC player decides to do, and there is absolutely no way of knowing.




You already admitted the pseudo unblockable shit was bad, now you've switched up on your earlier statements?

The downplay in this thread is disgusting.

 

[Rude]

Silly you, forgetting that breakers exist, AND CAN BE USED JUST AS EASILY BY QUAN CHI.


But basically, your opinion is that Quan Chi's neutral is SO bad, that he deserves to win the game of one touch, with a less than 1% chance of blocking that shit.

No, i'm not taking TB's word for it, I labbed it out myself, and even knowing exactly when it's coming it took a ridiculous amount of practice to get it even once, impossible to make consistent, and this is forgetting that this isn't just a set string, its a freaking 50/50 PLUS flexible timing. You'd think that is enough, but apparently you want 1 frame block links ON TOP OF IT. I don't want to hear the age old come back about Street Fighter players landing 1 frame links all the time either, thats something with set consistent timing that they have labbed to close to perfection. The timing on this is dependant on whatever the QC player decides to do, and there is absolutely no way of knowing!


You already admitted the pseudo unblockable shit was bad, now you've switched up on your earlier statements?

The downplay in this thread is disgusting.

I never said that Quan Chi's neutral was bad. I said you can lab ways around it. I also never said Quan was bad or that the mix up was easy to block.

But instead, you keep parrotting other people's talking points.

So say we're in the nuetral. You're standinf outside my b2 range and you've put up a clone.

Say you read my attempts to punish your putting out the clone by using MB Clone and recovering in time to block. You block the rune i was going to use and then punish with slide. Now you can run in and apply your 50/50. If i guess wrong, i eat a corner carry combo that leaves me cornered. All right. Not so bad.

You can d4/3 to check my wake up. If i do MB Sky Drop, you can recover in time to block and punish. Every corner combo from Sub ends in a hard knockdown into clone.

Now I'm cornered and you're standing inside the clone in such a way where either b33 or b2 will reach. I have to guess. If i guess wrong, it's another combo into a hard knockdown into another clone into another guess.

If Quan uses armor, he lands on the clone.

He could try to poke you through it with his abysmal d4 or d1 i suppose. Blocking those would make the clone go away. But i still have to get out of the corner.

Sub can do repeated d3's and Quan has no poke fast enough to poke back.

Well, that's not true. I could use standing 2. That into rune or trance would work.

But you could read that and simply do another d3 into + frames into another 50/50.

The point is, there is a meta game.

I could easily write a scenario where Quan Chi wins the nuetral and makes you guess to death.

Which is why the nuetral is so important.

Play better. Break down the nuetral and do what every character in every match up has to do: exploit your opponent's mistakes.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Parroting other peoples talking points? I haven't even been reading this thread dude, I'm just responding to the horrible logic I see constantly regurgitated in here.

So basically, you've completely ignored every point I made, and basically decided to focus on the neutral. I'm not sure what your point is, that it is possible to beat QC in the neutral? I'm well aware of that and never said otherwise, in fact I'd say I have an advantage in the neutral if we want to continue this example of Sub (even though I have dropped him, but whatever, the example works). The difference is however, if I catch you with that 50/50, you get 3 more chances to block and grab the advantage. One half of my 50/50 gets punished into game losing damage. Any connection from you into trance is game winning damage. I have to win the neutral every single time or I lose. All I'm saying is, nerf the pseudo unblockable. Without the pseudo unblockable, the random timed, still challenging to block even if you guess right and react right to the timing, 50/50, is better than Subs follow ups on wake up, way better. I think that saying Quan Chi deserves to win off a touch is just massive downplay, and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise, especially since you've addressed none of the points I made.

This thread embodies everything I hate about TYM.

 

[Rude]

Parroting other peoples talking points? I haven't even been reading this thread dude, I'm just responding to the horrible logic I see constantly regurgitated in here.

So basically, you've completely ignored every point I made, and basically decided to focus on the neutral. I'm not sure what your point is, that it is possible to beat QC in the neutral? I'm well aware of that and never said otherwise, in fact I'd say I have an advantage in the neutral if we want to continue this example of Sub (even though I have dropped him, but whatever, the example works). The difference is however, if I catch you with that 50/50, you get 3 more chances to block and grab the advantage. One half of my 50/50 gets punished into game losing damage. Any connection from you into trance is game winning damage. I have to win the neutral every single time or I lose. All I'm saying is, nerf the pseudo unblockable. Without the pseudo unblockable, the random timed, still challenging to block even if you guess right and react right to the timing, 50/50, is better than Subs follow ups on wake up, way better. I think that saying Quan Chi deserves to win off a touch is just massive downplay, and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise, especially since you've addressed none of the points I made.

This thread embodies everything I hate about TYM.

Quan Chi doesn't win off a touch. That's some serious overstating.

For one thing, Sub Zero's corner carry is such that you can legitimately carry anyone to the corner within 15 seconds of the match.

So continuing where we left off, you knock Quan Chi down. You run in do your 50/50. I guess right.

I guess right and you do b33 into MB Clone to keep me on the side of the screen you want. I can't jump. I could poke, but you can jump and catch me with a cross up during the recovery of poke. Worst case scenario, you can do a throw into clone. Now I'm frozen and you can cross up again into a combo that puts me in the corner.

I guess right on b2. Nothing happens. You're -13, true, but what can Quan punish with?

Not b2, that starts in 15.
Not b1, that starts in 14.
Not f2, that starts in 16.
Not Rune, that starts in 17.
Not d4, starts in 15.
Not d1, doesn't reach.
Not d3, doesn't reach.

Even with b1, you can backdash or use armor.

So say i block a b2 and try to punish, you can use armor on slide and now I'm cornered.

Once Quan Chi is cornered vs Sub Zero, what can he do?

Not armor. Even if i armor the b2 the clone catches him on the way down.

Or the b33 beats the armor into a freeze into a hkd into another guess.

I could try a njp. But b2 has AA properties, and you could low profile or simply stand there and let it whiff and punish. I could try to poke through the clone, which takes away the clone but doesn't get me out of the corner, especially with his abysmal poke range.

As much as you claim that I'm ignoring your points, you're ignoring mine.

In order to be put in this supposed Touch of Death guess situation, you have to lose the nuetral.

My argument is that you can always play better. There are plenty of ways to blow up Quan in the nuetral. You should try looking into them.

 

[Rude]

Parroting other peoples talking points? I haven't even been reading this thread dude, I'm just responding to the horrible logic I see constantly regurgitated in here.

So basically, you've completely ignored every point I made, and basically decided to focus on the neutral. I'm not sure what your point is, that it is possible to beat QC in the neutral? I'm well aware of that and never said otherwise, in fact I'd say I have an advantage in the neutral if we want to continue this example of Sub (even though I have dropped him, but whatever, the example works). The difference is however, if I catch you with that 50/50, you get 3 more chances to block and grab the advantage. One half of my 50/50 gets punished into game losing damage. Any connection from you into trance is game winning damage. I have to win the neutral every single time or I lose. All I'm saying is, nerf the pseudo unblockable. Without the pseudo unblockable, the random timed, still challenging to block even if you guess right and react right to the timing, 50/50, is better than Subs follow ups on wake up, way better. I think that saying Quan Chi deserves to win off a touch is just massive downplay, and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise, especially since you've addressed none of the points I made.

This thread embodies everything I hate about TYM.

It's definitely less than 3 with Sub's corner carry, by the by.

Also, that's how every character in the game works, if you lose the nuetral vs Raiden, what happens?

He carries you to the corner in a combo and applies a safe, re-standing 50/50 backed by an armored launcher if he makes a mistake. He could easily make you guess to death.

What happens when you lose to Jax in the nuetral? You get carried to the corner where he has a TON of mix up options, many of which lead to big damage and a pseudo restand with gotcha grab.

What happens when you lose to Kung Jin in the nuetral?

Corner carry into a knockdown. He can use f3 to break armor or he can use his 50/50 into big damage into another guess.

Welcome to MKX, a momentum-based, setplay heavy game where characters have excellent corner carry combos, unseeable 50/50s and armor breaking strings.

You think Quan Chi is the only character that can kill you with a touch?

I hope no good Cassie Cage ever corners you, launches you into 40-ish percent into another pure, safe guess. If you guess wrong, she kills you.

If you guess right vs Sonya, you're still not out of the woods because she makes you guess again and if you're wrong, you eat damage into a knockdown into another guess that carries you to the corner if you're wrong.

It's ridiculously easy to stuff wake ups in this game.

And no, It's not that I'm ignoring your points. It's that they've been made before and have been argued to death.

 

[delbuster]

i have thought that quan chi is top 2 in this game for some time now based on his mixup potential (but have never seen any results to back it up), and have really wondered why NRS has not done any significant nerfs to his mixup capability.
whenever i post on twitter saying this ppl just say no no, you are overrating him, there's tech against him.
but i want to see someone prove me right! haha

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Nope.

 

[Ryncage]

i have thought that quan chi is top 2 in this game for some time now based on his mixup potential (but have never seen any results to back it up), and have really wondered why NRS has not done any significant nerfs to his mixup capability.
whenever i post on twitter saying this ppl just say no no, you are overrating him, there's tech against him.
but i want to see someone prove me right! haha

if anything youll see that take place after NRS drops mkx, stops making any balance changes, and everyquan turns around a goes "HEH HEH HEH, GUESS THAT WAS OUR BAD GUYS".
Also, Rude: You don't need to mash your face into the enter key after every sentence, or rampantly doublepost with your shilltastic downplay. Edit some posts, nobody is in that big a hurry to snipe your responses.

 

[RunwayMafia]

@SneakyTortoise

Some real gems for you, darling.

 

[RVB]

Why did this thread go overboard like this?... Personally I'm not opposed to characters having hard to block setups AS LONG AS the setup can be blocked in a consistent way if you manage to fuzzy correctly.
IF Quan's bat vortex is indeed a setup you can't block consistently then I fail to see why anyone would oppose the setup being normalized.

 

[The_Tile]

I only use Sorcerer so I'm not gonna pretend I know much about Summoner but it seems to me like that specific set up Tom showed its kinda OP.
It shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be "normalized" a bit.

I just wish they gave Quan a decent amored reversal even if it doesn't combo like Warlock's scop. And buff his D3 from 9frames lol to 7frames at least. This will make him fair and balanced imo.

@legion666 ^ If Quan gets his defense buff just a bit I don't think most of us would mind if they normalized one set up. Like making the bat hit mid instead of low.

If low bat hit mid it should have more blockstun so Quan gets more plus frames after it to give it a purpose, due to it's long startup compared to the other bat moves.

 

[Ashenar]

What if trance allowed for a bat summon and left him slightly plus allowing for the player to use armor as an option? Instead of making low bat a mid?

 

[Rude]

if anything youll see that take place after NRS drops mkx, stops making any balance changes, and everyquan turns around a goes "HEH HEH HEH, GUESS THAT WAS OUR BAD GUYS".
Also, Rude: You don't need to mash your face into the enter key after every sentence, or rampantly doublepost with your shilltastic downplay. Edit some posts, nobody is in that big a hurry to snipe your responses.

Downplay how?

By saying Quan Chi has top 3 zoning?

By saying that his mix ups are extremely difficult to block?

Because those are things I've said.
I also have said that Sky Drop is a bad armored move, which is factually true.

I've also said that in order for Quan Chi to apply his vortex, he has to win the nuetral. Which is factually true.

I've also said that you can beat Quan in the nuetral and knock him down, then apply your character's setplay post knockdown to beat him. Also true.

So what haven't i said that isn't factually true?

 

[Rude]

What if trance allowed for a bat summon and left him slightly plus allowing for the player to use armor as an option? Instead of making low bat a mid?

You already have opportunities to armor. You can armor any variation of b324 into mb rune. After a mb rune, you can armor a follow up b2 and b32, b324 by itself are both full combo punishable.

What more do you want?

 

[JDM]

Stop acting like you didn't understand that in the post you quoted high risk meant weak defense in general, +14 on block from MB rune has nothing to do with Quan's defensive options. Tom grow up. Just because you got blown up by a Quan Chi player at Evo doesn't mean we need to nerf Quan. That Quan player lost at least 2 times after he beat you, because I didn't even see him in top 16. That means that pro players know how to deal with Quan. You didn't. And plus it is a pretty hard MU for Sub-Zero.
That pseudo unblockable was known to exist since like week one. Why didn't you complain then???????! Because stuff only needs to get nerfed if you get blown up by it?!)

Thanks for posting this so I didn't have to, lol

 

[JDM]

I actually use Quan Chi and I think he's good, but he's not even top 5 to me. He gets blown up by the most simple pressure, has no reversal and really just gets fucked in general on defense. While he's extremely strong in a 2/3 setting, this game wasn't even made for a 2/3 setting, I have no idea why that's the standard when Injustice was indeed switched to 3/5 standard when we noticed how easy to was to just mix people up for eternity in that game. MKX is even worse in the corner since no invincible wakeups. Change the standard to 3/5 and Quan would be fine in this game. All you need is a string of pressure to beat quan, it's honestly not that hard. Blocking his shit is very hard, but like I said high risk high reward.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Why did this thread go overboard like this?

I like to imagine @I GOT HANDS recruiting the traditional shit-posse and rounding up Quan threads like Romans looking for Jesus.

 

[haketh]

LMAO how does this game not fit a 2/3 setting, y'all are fucking ridiculous

 

[Peckapowa]

What if trance allowed for a bat summon and left him slightly plus allowing for the player to use armor as an option? Instead of making low bat a mid?

shhhh this idea is too sane