What's new

Upgraded. Most. Broken. Character. For all MK11. History. Delete her. Please. NRS. Please

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
I think a lot of the d1 stuff is easier said then done as you do not have to do any bounce cancel and just finish the f3,1 string or end f1,2 with gk or dash punch.
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
And comments like these are falling into the same problem. Even if the player didn't put that much time into labbing the MU, he still won 3-0. And like you said, he waited for his turn. So if he can win 3-0 against Jacqui by doing this alone, that means she is indeed fine, and everyone who complains about her is just exaggerating as usual.

You basically played yourself, while you should've just playing the game.
Nice try, it was close. :coffee:
The fact that he win even without knowing the matchup is due more to the failure of the other player than to the merit of him, a lot for not using her resources in the best way and wanting to solve everything randomly. Not knowing the matchup prevents him from punishing and avoiding situations where he preferred to defend himself due to lack of knowledge, he would have a much easier job if he punished the Ground Pound (-17) or ducked to force whiff after the Air Sharpnel (-18 ~ -20) for example. But what he did was to count on the opponent's inability to finish the job, that fact doesn't make her "ok". Not playing cannot be the answer for her, you have to prevent the moves or you will be playing her game all the time like he did.

I don't want them to kill the character or delete it from the game, but something needs to be done. Maybe better AA options for characters that have a lot of difficulty, some more active frames in jabs, better hitbox in d2s, I don't know. I wonder what SonicFox would do with such a character in their hands, I dream every day to see they using this variation just to be able to see the reaction of everyone who says there is nothing wrong.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Nice try, it was close. :coffee:
The fact that he win even without knowing the matchup is due more to the failure of the other player than to the merit of him, a lot for not using her resources in the best way and wanting to solve everything randomly. Not knowing the matchup prevents him from punishing and avoiding situations where he preferred to defend himself due to lack of knowledge, he would have a much easier job if he punished the Ground Pound (-17) or ducked to force whiff after the Air Sharpnel (-18 ~ -20) for example. But what he did was to count on the opponent's inability to finish the job, that fact doesn't make her "ok". Not playing cannot be the answer for her, you have to prevent the moves or you will be playing her game all the time like he did.

I don't want them to kill the character or delete it from the game, but something needs to be done. Maybe better AA options for characters that have a lot of difficulty, some more active frames in jabs, better hitbox in d2s, I don't know. I wonder what SonicFox would do with such a character in their hands, I dream every day to see they using this variation just to be able to see the reaction of everyone who says there is nothing wrong.
I can see your contradictory from beyond the Nexus of the realms dude.

If you know what you need to do against Jacqui in a real match, let alone being able to lecture so confidently about what other players should've done in their recorded matches, including a former pro player like Mitsuowens, then why you keep advocating for Jacqui to get nerfed, let alone praying for ultra caliber players like Sonic Fox to use her themselves just so that they will win with her to prove everyone wrong? I mean, if I knew what to do with a certain character, either playing as or fighting against that char, even if not through actually pulling that off in a real match due to lack of real match experience and only theoretically, I would most likely be the last person on earth to call for buff or nerfs, and especially if I do have that real match experience against multiple players with or against that char. I called out Cherny Volk earlier in this very thread for what he shouldn't have done as Seeing Double Noob Saibot against Back in the Pack Kollector (a comment that YOU YOURSELF approved with the laughter emoji out of the mockery that Cherny deserved), because I do have the knowledge and experience both as a Zoning player in general and as a Noob Saibot player myself in MK11. Does that mean that either Noob is weak or Kollector is OP and I should call out for balance changes accordingly?

Of course the fuck not.

If you claim that those punishes from Mitsu's Joker should've been so easy that he should've been capitalize on them, and Mitsu managed to get the 3-0 without capitalizing on those punishes (which means that by capitalizing on them would've make the 3-0 even easier to get), how the fuck is Jacqui so OP that she needs to get nerfed? All of the videos, both my video from Mitsu as well as what others like those that Crimson Shadow brought clearly show that Jacqui is not OP, and your lecture only proves that even further. You can't lecture for real match actions that should be easy and still advocate for nerfs as if those real match actions are hard to pull off. You gotta pick only one side. If you got the knowledge, then FUCKING USE IT YOURSELF, and encourage other players to do the same, instead of calling out for nerfs.

That wasn't a try, that was a Fatal Blow, and no, this one doesn't need any balance changes (just like the real Fatal Blows in their current state). I would like to see you try, if you can do it without contradicting yourself.

EDIT: I saw the like that you gave Blewdew, which means that you should now have even more knowledge about the MU. If any more comments towards me that oppose this statement don't show that you try to troll me like any other TYM hate orgy troll, I don't know what will.
 
Last edited:

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I think a lot of the d1 stuff is easier said then done as you do not have to do any bounce cancel and just finish the f3,1 string or end f1,2 with gk or dash punch.
It doesn‘t matter if they finish the string and not bounce cancel. You‘re just crouch blocking the whole time and d1 after they did shrapnel. Close bounce can only open you up with shrapnel into shrapnel and cross up shrapnel whiffs if it‘s not delayed to the max.
It‘s not like you have to mash d1 to try to get out a stagger situation, you have enough time to react accordingly to most options.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think a lot of the d1 stuff is easier said then done as you do not have to do any bounce cancel and just finish the f3,1 string or end f1,2 with gk or dash punch.
If we can actually get into discussing the meta of Upgraded now (which imo, is a waaay more productive way to use this thread), this is why if you notice, players who beat Upgraded mains often just let Jacqui go nuts sometimes and spend her meter first.

If you're blocking there's not much to fear.. Maybe she cancels into Ground Pound for minimal damage. And at the risk of her life if you read that.

So basically, there are multiple ways to interrupt everything -- starting with the fact that Bounce can be both anti-aired and air-to-aired like a normal jump-in (and you'll see that in the match videos) -- but if you're ever not quite sure the punish is going to land, then play it safe and let her waste the meter.

Since the doesn't have the cancel like in 1st Round, if she commits to f31 on block, or f314, or whatever else, her pressure is over at that point, and there's really nothing special about it.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
It doesn‘t matter if they finish the string and not bounce cancel. You‘re just crouch blocking the whole time and d1 after they did shrapnel. Close bounce can only open you up with shrapnel into shrapnel and cross up shrapnel whiffs if it‘s not delayed to the max.
It‘s not like you have to mash d1 to try to get out a stagger situation, you have enough time to react accordingly to most options.
I have pretty much only played jaqui from launch and upgraded since the moves were announced in the kombat kast. Maybe offline it is easier to deal with but that shit looks much harder when you are trying to focus on staggers and throws is all I am trying to say. I have had people try to deal with it in long sets but they kinda just stop and wait for a execution error on my part.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
If we can actually get into discussing the meta of Upgraded now (which imo, is a waaay more productive way to use this thread), this is why if you notice, players who beat Upgraded mains often just let Jacqui go nuts sometimes and spend her meter first.

If you're blocking there's not much to fear.. Maybe she cancels into Ground Pound for minimal damage. And at the risk of her life if you read that.

So basically, there are multiple ways to interrupt everything -- starting with the fact that Bounce can be both anti-aired and air-to-aired like a normal jump-in (and you'll see that in the match videos) -- but if you're ever not quite sure the punish is going to land, then play it safe and let her waste the meter.

Since the doesn't have the cancel like in 1st Round, if she commits to f31 on block, or f314, or whatever else, her pressure is over at that point, and there's really nothing special about it.
The only thing I tell people when asked how to deal with it is just crouch block and wait for execution error or ground pound.

Disclaimer: I don't lab I just play so I don't even know how to deal with it as none of my friends play her.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I have pretty much only played jaqui from launch and upgraded since the moves were announced in the kombat kast. Maybe offline it is easier to deal with but that shit looks much harder when you are trying to focus on staggers and throws is all I am trying to say. I have had people try to deal with it in long sets but they kinda just stop and wait for a execution error on my part.
Sure but you can apply this to pretty much every character, you have to watch out for every little thing all the time in this game.

I‘m just trying to get the information out that bounce mixups aren‘t unbeatable like most of the People in this thread make It out to be and you can lower the chance of getting hit by it a lot by doing this. In the End characters get overnerfed because of things like this.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
Sure but you can apply this to pretty much every character, you have to watch out for every little thing all the time in this game.

I‘m just trying to get the information out that bounce mixups aren‘t unbeatable like most of the People in this thread make It out to be and you can lower the chance of getting hit by it a lot by doing this. In the End characters get overnerfed because of things like this.
I hear you I am just playing devils advocate in that everyone is so scared of dealing with bounce it seams they get opened up by everything else easier. Jaqui has a decent bit more to watch out for at range 1-5 as you can cancel from everything b2 being very sneaky.

My biggest fear is that Next Gen gets dinged because of it but that's just the variation system I guess.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The only thing I tell people when asked how to deal with it is just crouch block and wait for execution error or ground pound.

Disclaimer: I don't lab I just play so I don't even know how to deal with it as none of my friends play her.
You should be contesting her, though -- like most things in fighting games, it's a balance. If you're just playing passively, better players will notice and it will open up their options.

There is a middle ground between mashing every time she does Bionic Bounce and getting hit by Air Blast (which I've seen a lot of people doing), and never contesting or AA'ing her at all and just blocking all day. Somewhere in the middle is the strategy that works best.

And all of this is based on recognizing your opponent's habits and patterns, just like anyone else.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
You should be contesting her, though -- like most things in fighting games, it's a balance. If you're just playing passively, better players will notice and it will open up their options.

There is a middle ground between mashing every time she does Bionic Bounce and getting hit by Air Blast (which I've seen a lot of people doing), and never contesting or AA'ing her at all and just blocking all day. Somewhere in the middle is the strategy that works best.

And all of this is based on recognizing your opponent's habits and patterns, just like anyone else.
I agree for sure I just think it seems way easier said then done when you factor in with what she can do when in range. This is coming from a jaqui main and I should be saying its simple just react and d1 but I dunno I would have to play a good upgraded to say for sure.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I agree for sure I just think it seems way easier said then done when you factor in with what she can do when in range. This is coming from a jaqui main and I should be saying its simple just react and d1 but I dunno I would have to play a good upgraded to say for sure.
Literally everything in the game is easier said than done. But playing Upgraded against a good player is also easier said than done, as they will blow you up for things.

It's a balance and that's part of the magic of fighting games.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
Literally everything in the game is easier said than done. But playing Upgraded against a good player is also easier said than done, as they will blow you up for things.

It's a balance and that's part of the magic of fighting games.
I aint about to die over the Jaqui cross but until I get a bunch of matches vs her ill bite my tongue. Personally though when playing her I just giggle at some of the stupid shit she does and it is great.
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
I can see your contradictory from beyond the Nexus of the realms dude.

If you know what you need to do against Jacqui in a real match, let alone being able to lecture so confidently about what other players should've done in their recorded matches, including a former pro player like Mitsuowens, then why you keep advocating for Jacqui to get nerfed, let alone praying for ultra caliber players like Sonic Fox to use her themselves just so that they will win with her to prove everyone wrong? I mean, if I knew what to do with a certain character, either playing as or fighting against that char, even if not through actually pulling that off in a real match due to lack of real match experience and only theoretically, I would most likely be the last person on earth to call for buff or nerfs, and especially if I do have that real match experience against multiple players with or against that char. I called out Cherny Volk earlier in this very thread for what he shouldn't have done as Seeing Double Noob Saibot against Back in the Pack Kollector (a comment that YOU YOURSELF approved with the laughter emoji out of the mockery that Cherny deserved), because I do have the knowledge and experience both as a Zoning player in general and as a Noob Saibot player myself in MK11. Does that mean that either Noob is weak or Kollector is OP and I should call out for balance changes accordingly?

Of course the fuck not.

If you claim that those punishes from Mitsu's Joker should've been so easy that he should've been capitalize on them, and Mitsu managed to get the 3-0 without capitalizing on those punishes (which means that by capitalizing on them would've make the 3-0 even easier to get), how the fuck is Jacqui so OP that she needs to get nerfed? All of the videos, both my video from Mitsu as well as what others like those that Crimson Shadow brought clearly show that Jacqui is not OP, and your lecture only proves that even further. You can't lecture for real match actions that should be easy and still advocate for nerfs as if those real match actions are hard to pull off. You gotta pick only one side. If you got the knowledge, then FUCKING USE IT YOURSELF, and encourage other players to do the same, instead of calling out for nerfs.

That wasn't a try, that was a Fatal Blow, and no, this one doesn't need any balance changes (just like the real Fatal Blows in their current state). I would like to see you try, if you can do it without contradicting yourself.

EDIT: I saw the like that you gave Blewdew, which means that you should now have even more knowledge about the MU. If any more comments towards me that oppose this statement don't show that you try to troll me like any other TYM hate orgy troll, I don't know what will.
Jesus Christ ... Come on. Either I'm having problems with my bad english or I'm not able to explain my idea, it isn't possible.

First: I'm not asking for nerfs "for me", I'm not even asking for nerfs at first. I made my opinion very clear that I don't know what should be done, but that something needed to be done IMO. Whether it's improving the options of characters who have difficulty dealing with it, or nerfing Leap as a last option. Don't choose the part that suits you to counter-argue. I'm not a child and I don't think you are either, so please.

The fact that I spend my time in Practice Mode and have less difficulty (which doesn't imply finding it "easy" or whatever you understand) doesn't imply that I do not see the character's potential. Next Gen Jacqui was my first main since launch. I attend weekly and monthly locals and me and my team are always practicing together. Sometimes because I faced Jacquies at the level of your video, or because I practiced well, the difficulty is minor, not non-existent.

I didn't want to shit on Mitsu's skills, but there's no way to use this Jacqui from the video as a parameter. Please, Jacqui was my main until a few months ago before Buzzed. The only thing the player did was to looping f31~leap and pray to hit Mitsu, so I recommend you watch again and take notes like I did. I think you missed something more than the "Fatal Blow punish"... Just for comparison, he didn't use even half of the options that Blewdew posted here and you pointed out. Not even half of this half, just looping the same string over and over again. He only loops f31~leap when she was plenty of options like:

  • 112~leap
  • f1, throw
  • f1~leap
  • f1,2
  • f1,2~leap
  • b2~leap
  • b22~leap
  • b3~leap
  • b3,2
  • b3,4
  • f3~leap
  • f3,1~leap
And more and more options like instant/delayed Sharpnels, Bionic Dash, Ground Pounds, etc etc etc. But all this "super optmized Jacqui" is doing is f3,1~leap and pray. All the time.

A few days ago a local was commenting on wanting her to be deleted or to have the "Deadshots treatment", so what I did was to watch his match and show that most of the things he complained about her were his mistakes. So these things aren't a problem for me. I know how to recognize where my fault is and admit whether or not I know how to deal with it before asking for something or even hate or get salty. But I also know when a resource isn't well placed in the context. I find her gameplay in this variation very interesting, but she plays MKX within MK11 and this needs to be reviewed in some way. Not "for me", but because IMO, it doesn't fit with the general proposal of the game.

I really didn't understand where having less difficulty but still find something "strange" sounds contradictory or any attempt to troll you. I don't think she's broken or something like other people do, nor did I even want to say it, but something need to be done. So I didn't really understand your "Fatal Blow" and this discussion is becoming unproductive like the whole thread.
 
Last edited:

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
If you're blocking there's not much to fear.. Maybe she cancels into Ground Pound for minimal damage. And at the risk of her life if you read that.
The danger in the Ground Pound is that she is +8 and close enough (at b2 range) and put you back in the mixup situation. In some situations (like in the corner) this is more risky than the damage, because GP don't have pushback, so she can jail you with f1/f3.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The danger in the Ground Pound is that she is +8 and close enough (at b2 range) and put you back in the mixup situation. In some situations (like in the corner) this is more risky than the damage, because GP don't have pushback, so she can jail you with f1/f3.
She can't mix you up infinitely, as she doesn't have infinite meter. And the damage she gets for GP is a lot less than the full punish you'll get if you read it. Or if you blow up Air Blast, etc.

If you watch the matches, people get hit by the occasional ground pound and just block, and it's not that big of a deal.

Also, fun fact, a jab will beat ground pound before it goes active. So if you're timing it to interrupt after Air Blast Cancel it'll beat ground pound as well.

As far as fighting against Upgraded, ground pounds are the least of my concerns. The primary concern is the damage she gets if she connects with something else.
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
She can't mix you up infinitely, as she doesn't have infinite meter. And the damage she gets for GP is a lot less than the full punish you'll get if you read it. Or if you blow up Air Blast, etc.
But she doesn't need meter to cancel leap into GP (i.e.: f3,1~leap~GP). A good player will use the fact that you accept the damage as an advantage to open your defense and use Air Sharpnels only at the right time.

Also, fun fact, a jab will beat ground pound before it goes active. So if you're timing it to interrupt after Air Blast Cancel it'll beat ground pound as well.
Even if the GP comes out at 14f?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
But she doesn't need meter to cancel leap into GP (i.e.: f3,1~leap~GP). A good player will use the fact that you accept the damage as an advantage to open your defense and use Air Sharpnels only at the right time.


Even if the GP comes out at 14f?
She’s not gonna just keep raw leaping into GP if she doesn’t have meter, because if you know she isn’t going to cancel that’s a free combo. She also needs meter to get significant damage off a conversion.

And GP is highly unsafe, so I haven’t seen an Upgraded yet that keeps raw bouncing into GP over and over. Even if she somehow hit you with 4 of them in row, they do 70 damage each — one right read and punish would make up all that damage in a single combo. And significantly more if you have a krushing or fatal blow on deck.

I have yet to see somebody lose to a Jacqui who is trying to loop ground pound. If you find one, let me know. The risk/reward not being so great is why the good Upgraded players use it sparingly.

And yes, go into the lab, set the AI to bounce into Air Blast Cancel into GP and jab her out of it. The combination of cancel into GP doesn’t start up as fast as you think.

This honestly sounds like theorycrafting rather than actual MU experience.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
But she doesn't need meter to cancel leap into GP (i.e.: f3,1~leap~GP). A good player will use the fact that you accept the damage as an advantage to open your defense and use Air Sharpnels only at the right time.


Even if the GP comes out at 14f?
Yes you can easily jab or d1 inbetween shrapnel into ground pound it‘s actually not hard at all. Same with shrapnel into jp the only thing that will beat the jab is shrapnel into shrapnel