Understanding how to fight against NDCs

[A F0xy Grampa]

Now all we have to do is break his zoning game.

Do you guys think Raiden is a good "counter" to Kabal as his zoning is not much of a problem for Raiden, and he can tele out of string? I have been thinking of either Raiden or Reptile to counter Sonyas bas MU's. Kabal and Kenshi.

I am going to learn this stuff inside and out so hopefully Kabal dosnt body me anymore just for being Kabal.

The aim of all this is to find somewhat universal answers to a characters strategies. Its not good telling everybody to 'play raiden' to counter Kabal because he cant be zoned and he can 121 his way out of NDC pressure (other than 2NDC).

So if anybody has any way of dealing with Kabals fireballs other than ducking and reacting to it, let me know.

 

[smokey]

He can only always be +2 if he's using his 13 frame moves, not his 9f moves. Trust me, just try it out and you'll see what I mean. You cant just assume that he is always going to use 21 or F4 because its just not practical.

Yeah i know what you are saying but to assume that no kabal can do B1,2 NDC 2 NDC or even F4 NDC and beat my attempt to get out clean, its still a risk

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Yeah i know what you are saying but to assume that no kabal can do B1,2 NDC 2 NDC or even F4 NDC and beat my attempt to get out clean, its still a risk

A bigger risk for the Kabal player

 

[smokey]

A bigger risk for the Kabal player

yeah i also guess i dont need to mention releasing ndc though thats just shit everyone has to deal with

 

[Eddy Wang]

I guess this is okay if you're Sindel, LK, Freddy or Jade with glow/low rang, but what about everyone else?

give Skarlet a meter and Kuh Bawl can't zone her or NDC her

 

[Flagg]

give Skarlet a meter and Kuh Bawl can't zone her or NDC her

Bearing in mind what this thread is about, Skarlet could in theory be a bad match up for Kabal? Of course she can armour through machine gun for big damage, but if you're being NMDC pressured, you poke out at the right time, you can go for 112 and then the ball is in your court. She has hands down the best armour in the game.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

She has hands down the best armour in the game.

Rain

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Wait... so I can just 22 freeze my way out?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Wait... so I can just 22 freeze my way out?

Either that or 224 slide if you want longer to hit confirm.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Bearing in mind what this thread is about, Skarlet could in theory be a bad match up for Kabal? Of course she can armour through machine gun for big damage, but if you're being NMDC pressured, you poke out at the right time, you can go for 112 and then the ball is in your court. She has hands down the best armour in the game.

Rain has because he can cancel it.

But her mobility, oh man, possibly the fastest character in the game.
There is some distances where is forbidden to zoning if your projectiles takes long to recover.
She can give the effect of optical illusion, when she whiffs something unsafe with -3 frames, and when they try to poke in, armor comes in the way.
Having meter with her its the kick start of her mind games.

But Kabal is Kabal, and its all about reads and fast reaction between the gaps

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Either that or 224 slide if you want longer to hit confirm.

sweet. Need to go practice this.

Hear that Hazezie ? ... better brush up on those IAGBs bro!

 

[Phosferrax]

Wait... so I can just 22 freeze my way out?

Tom Brady was doing this to Kevo on one of Blackula's streams.

 

[Skitzo]

I am brushed up, online makes me miss some minor ones lol

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

As a Kenshi player in this matchup (i used to use KL but he`s just so boring), I use my armor to get out, though it`s always a risk if he jumps over at that moment. However, my d3 is good, and I can use D3 Spirit Charge and D3 Tk Slash for an armor setup.

When I`m not using armor, raw SCs, or d3/d1, I try to watch his NDCs and interrupt with 1 1 4. Standing 1 is 10 frames, so it`s not really fast enough to interrupt regularly, but I do get it sometimes depending on what he does after the NDC. If it hits, I confirm into Rising Karma and F2 2 B2. If it`s blocked I confirm into TK Slash for another armor setup.

Those my options. I have a super high hit box so I have to deal with alllll of Kabal`s shit. But I can usually get out unless I make a really shit read. It`s the chase against his zoning that is the real challenge.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

As a Kenshi player in this matchup (i used to use KL but he`s just so boring), I use my armor to get out, though it`s always a risk if he jumps over at that moment. However, my d3 is good, and I can use D3 Spirit Charge and D3 Tk Slash for an armor setup.

When I`m not using armor, raw SCs, or d3/d1, I try to watch his NDCs and interrupt with 1 1 4. Standing 1 is 10 frames, so it`s not really fast enough to interrupt regularly, but I do get it sometimes depending on what he does after the NDC. If it hits, I confirm into Rising Karma and F2 2 B2. If it`s blocked I confirm into TK Slash for another armor setup.

Those my options. I have a super high hit box so I have to deal with alllll of Kabal`s shit. But I can usually get out unless I make a really shit read. It`s the chase against his zoning that is the real challenge.

10 frame moves are fine, trust me.
But I'd imagine it'd be dependent on the spacing from the corner as Kenshi, if you're near a wall you might as well just shoulder out of everything. Midscreen 114 is probably more with it.

 

[Flagg]

Rain

You know that video of you versus REO inspired me and i've been using Rain in the lab this evening. You know, he has a play style a little similar to CSZ, except this guy has awesome armour, which suits me fine.

10 frame moves are fine, trust me.
But I'd imagine it'd be dependent on the spacing from the corner as Kenshi, if you're near a wall you might as well just shoulder out of everything. Midscreen 114 is probably more with it.

So CSZ could 11 into freeze or even 21 into freeze?

Foxy, the player that saved the community from Kabal!

 

[SZSR]

Smoke is fine, his standing 2 is 9 frames and 214 is 0 on block while 21 can be confirmed into SB

F4 can be cancelled into overhead or blade, which is what the Kabal player should do. So you cant interupt the 50/50

Sweet that's good news for Smoke thanks Foxy.

Wait so he can just stuff your armor moves by doing that? So when are you allowed to armor through his moves?

 

[Faded Dreams V]

As a Kenshi player in this matchup (i used to use KL but he`s just so boring)

Kung Lao is boring....but Kenshi isn't?!

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

So CSZ could 11 into freeze or even 21 into freeze?

Foxy, the player that saved the community from Kabal!

CSZ would have to 11 freeze, but he also has the threat of the divekick when Kabal starts poking too, only problem is why would Kabal ever go near CSZ when he can just spam fireballs all day against him.

Not saved us from Kabal, I've been doing this shit to Kabal players for a very long time already, its the fireballs that make him stupid.

Sweet that's good news for Smoke thanks Foxy.

Wait so he can just stuff your armor moves by doing that? So when are you allowed to armor through his moves?

You can armour Kabal everytime he does a dash cancel. What I've been explaining is the proper way to deal with his rushdown without using meter.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

re-iterating what most players already knew.

Its like a big callout to everyone who just blocks 8 revolutions of NDC. have some balls people.

 

[SunnyD]

Its amazing that this isnt common knowledge yet. You could always poke and/or armor out of Kabal pressure. Knowing when to do that? that's the hard part.

 

[THTB]

She can give the effect of optical illusion, when she whiffs something unsafe with -3 frames, and when they try to poke in, armor comes in the way.

Something I never see Skarlet players take advantage of. So long as Skarlet has meter, you can never attempt to poke her after RD slide. >_>

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Right since you guys still arent getting it I'll explain it to you.

NDC is a move that is supposed to happen when the opponent respects Kabals options to do a low or an overhead at the end of any blockstring.

E.g A Kabal player that does F32 NDC F32 is no different than a Mileena player doing 4 2, 4 2 as blockstrings. Or a Cage player doing 11 11. It happens when you respect that the opponent can extend their blockstring, but they deliberately shorten it so that they can repeat it again.

What to understand

Moves you MUST respect:

- 111 NDC, this leaves Kabal at +8 and grants him either a free F4, throw, F3 or B1, just block or armour
- 2NDC, this leaves Kabal at +9, so its any of the above again

Moves you dont need to respect if you have a 10frame or faster starter (preferably mid hitting but doesnt matter too much):

- F32 NDC & B12 NDC, leaves Kabal at +2 and B1 NDC/11B4NDC/21 NDC leaving him at +1 BUT if you want to interupt him here just mash your fastest launcher, if it is high hitting it will force Kabal to poke or eat a combo. If it is mid hitting he has no choice other than to poke. Once you force him to poke you then have the option to jump over him or block his poke for a counter set up.

Moves Kabal has to commit to something on:

F4 NDC (-5) This is a terrible idea for the Kabal player to do because if they cancel and attempt another normal they will get comboed, so here they either have to commit to the dash, or end in a 50/50. Most Kabal players are scared to commit to the dash, but if they do it wont hurt to get hit by it a couple times because he can only get about 25% off of it. Whereas if you block it you get max damage, which is big for characters like Rain, Cyrax, Sektor, Sonya etc.

IF THE KABAL PLAYER DOES F4 WITHOUT A 50/50 OR A COMMITTED DASH THEIR PRESSURE GAME IS OVER

So basically just mash out them NDCs

Other things to note:

B1~2 can be armoured out of or teleported out of (Raiden)
111 against crouch block is full combo punished when interupted

is it a good idea to respect kabals ndc at least two times because he could just do the dash instead of canceling it?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

is it a good idea to respect kabals ndc at least two times because he could just do the dash instead of canceling it?

name one kabal who actually WANTS to do this.
that would be zero... because they want dat meter. You actually win a huge battle if you can make him just finish the first cancel with a mixup.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

name one kabal who actually WANTS to do this.
that would be zero... because they want dat meter. You actually win a huge battle if you can make him just finish the first cancel with a mixup.

Actually kabals will do this if they have a breaker in hand/ make a read u want to poke out. If u stop respecting it, he will blow u up with a dash and get a full combo with the f4 to reset things. I see plenty of kabals take that one risk bcuz they know their opponent won't expect it. Doing the expected gets ppl blown up, FYI. I never said they want to do this lol putting words into my mouth, I said what IF.