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UMK3 Tier list discussion

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
This thread is closed to cool off for a day. If everyone is still heated and wants to come back for another round fine, but I'd rather do this than pass out infractions for people getting this heated over numbers next to names. There is no reason to amend the tier list constantly when so many players have specific feelings about specific characters, and oftentimes are in disagreement with others.

As long as they are both breaking 50% on average, it doesn't matter who averages more when you are just looking at combos. It just takes a little bit less of the second combo to win in the case of "2 mistakes and it's over" for one character. In that situation, tactics prevail because they make the combos possible, if they are even needed to win. This is where it is proven that Reptile is a better character than Stryker, hands down, which apparently, this discussion has become. Somehow proving Stryker to be better than Reptile would have led to Reptile being demoted and Stryker being promoted. Since that isn't true, we'll continue.

There are also times when Stryker's infinite is not possible to complete due to corner location, and I'm not talking about Stryker just getting pushed back by his uppercut, I mean mid screen when it appears it is available, but really isn't.

In terms of execution, (both situations being a successful non-push back pop up) Reptile's big damage juggles, and infinites are always available in full, without interruption, anywhere on screen and they are only affected by the corner when he is pushed back by his pop up, again also a factor for Stryker. What I am referring to is when you get a mid screen 4 hit pop up, riot gun, whiff dash, aaHP and then there is push back, which means no gun available, or even after another juggle, which is entirely dependent upon where you are when you start the combo.

This situation happens a lot, especially where you cannot run in and do an aaHP before the gun because that might not be close enough to the wall, or, you can't run in and JK from long distance to start the infinite without any mid screen juggles. That is a situation where his infinite isn't available, and his combo might not break 50% otherwise. Reptile in the same situation, simply has his infinite, or 50%. The point being, Reptile has a sure 50% on everyone except Shang, at anytime he enables the juggle, in any situation. Stryker does not.

The difference here is arguing whether or not it is more critical to a person who is playing Reptile if they are being deterred by their own ability to perform a combo, or if it's a mechanic of the game that just doesn't allow Stryker's combo to be completed because of the wall, regardless of the player's ability to perform the combo.

On top of that, using just the cross screen infinite as his damage, it is the same amount of hits, and effort, for Stryker to break 50% from a knee lift without using the corner as it is breaking 50% with Reptile, without using an infinite and just a simply, aaHPHP, aaLPHP, aaLPLP, uppercut = 50%. Reptile's juggling also has a more reliable, simplistic timing and repetitive pattern than Stryker's mid screen semi inf, but still, both concepts are similar. Two juggles and a whiffed dashing attack, however with Stryker's requiring another move in between that makes up for its usage with adding damage to the combo. It is completely opinion whether you think it is more difficult to Stryker's set up to the corner infinite, or Reptile's 50%+ combos.

It's a matter of practice, and that is it. If you can't break 50% with Reptile and you still want to learn Reptile, then you suck I guess. If you don't care about his 50%+ combos, you can still win with him. It is a serious display of low level skill to say "Oh that Reptile juggle is too hard." when it's completely not. His infinites vs male ninjas, Kano, Kabal especially, yes, extremely difficult because there is more positioning and rhythm breaking segments. His standard 50% is easier than Ermac's 82%, or even Ermac's 50% knee lift combo.

In the most technical sense, Stryker's mid screen infinite is more dexterity intensive since there are two specials being performed each volley, and a run cancel between his jabs if you want to be sure to keep them high enough. This requires as many, if not more total button presses than Reptile's infinite. Lots more micromanagement.

Something else worth mentioning, the 360 gamepad hinders Reptile greatly overall, which is just another reason why people don't pick him. 360 gamepad is also not taken into consideration, at all, as it is doesn't allow players to fully explore the game. The vast majority of the info in these guides was presented/worded before XBLA UMK3 was even announced.

On a side note, I really love, and think it's amazing how the crybabies can weeded out by threads like this. They complain, they whine, they make wild claims. "My words don't mean anything!" "I'll post obstinate signatures or profile information! That'll show em that I know I'm right and this site is run by a big meanie." Cry me a river. What do you think is going to happen? You guys think you're going to come up with something that hasn't already be said or reviewed or seen before?

It's like you do it to try and show "me" or "ultimatemk" up, when I merely reworded most of the guides built from information of years of experience from many players, and didn't just simply "create" the tier list on the site based on personal preference like many of you do. Most of the stuff people post on here is very old news or even obselete because a lot of you are still learning the game and seeing the same tactics come up that appeared and vanished as others who were playing this game in 1995-1997. The only difference now, is many of you have the benefit of the knowledge that players from basically a generation ago layed out. Unfortunately, you have to learn and apply this by playing online. There are a number of you who are complete jokes, and are representitive of the reasons why UMK3 is a cesspool of baby bullshit. You don't see this with other fighting games because no other games have a such a lopsided player base. Those games are determined in person.

Some of you mistake effort and efficiency for something like - "Oh well Stryker has the knee lift combo which leads to big damage." the problem there is, it's harder for Stryker to get that seemingly simple knee lift than it is for Reptile to connect a forceball in some way. Reptile's pressure is far greater than Stryker's, as is Human Smoke's, or Ermac's. Stryker ONLY has big damage combos, he has no real pressure game, and no tactics to write home about. Reptile has big damage combos, and tactics, plus excellent normals. You'll find in many cases, pure tactics outweigh pure combos, maybe not online because combos occur by luck and accident far more often there.

Don't post here anymore if you don't like it. It is a tier list discussion, but there are some extremely brazen members who think they can just barge in and change things because they said so! Oh hell yeah! And that's the bottom line!

Stryker is a good character, but he is not a top tier character. I provide an unbelievable wealth of information with my posts in this thread. I have to dig through my brain and present things in words that I shouldn't even have to bother. Things that I don't even know specifically myself, I have to explain because I still understand what things mean. I suggest reading through carefully.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Alright Phoenix, lets discuss this with more people who understand the tier list in UMk3.

First, to set this up, this:

OJuggernaut0 said:
UMK3 is far from broke. There are a few broken elements here and there that are not easy to abuse, but they are there. There are very few infinites as well, and only a few universal infinites. I can think of a lot of 2D fighters I've played that are far more broken than UMK3. The most broken element in UMK3 is probably the relaunch combos, and the precise timing that is required to pull it off makes it very difficult to do during a match. It goes down even futher depending on what character you're facing, most characters can't even be relaunched.

Having a lot of usable tournament characters means there's something inherent to the game's system that allows for potential to win with a larger cast. UMK3 has a very small top tier, a huge mid tier, and a small bottom tier. Almost all characters have counter characters who are traditionally ranked very differently otherwise and might not stand a chance against certain ones in between. There are, like any other game, a few characters who are very powerful, but most, if not all exploits other than the 3 or so universal infinites in the game, are so limited or difficult that they don't break the entire game.


Here's a tier list for UMK3:

Top Tier:
1. Kabal
2. Human Smoke
3. Kung Lao
4. Ermac
5. Nightwolf

Mid Tier:
6. Kano
7. Reptile
8. Robo Smoke
9. Sindel
10. Jax
11. Sonya
12. Kitana
13. Stryker
14. Scorpion
15. Unmasked Sub-Zero
16. Jade
17. Liu Kang
18. Sektor

Bottoom Tier:
19. Classic Sub-Zero
20. Sheeva
21. Cyrax
22. Mileena
23. Shang Tsung

There's alot of debate on the tier list, this one is very accurate.

The top 10 are usable, and you do see them frequently in finals for tournaments, however the top 4 most often seen are Kabal, Human Smoke , Kung Lao and Nightwolf. Ermac, Reptile and Robot Smoke get a lot of use too. All these characters can mess eachother up, but Kabal overall is the best, but not God. (Some people say a game's broken because of a god tier character, and UMK3 has none). Even the bottom tier can win against the top tier. I've seen some nasty Sheeva's that can even beat Kabal, which is Sheeva's counter.

UMK3 has alot to it: Ground Combos, Set-ups, Positioning, Spacing, Blocking, Run, Run Jabs, Kara Jabs, Corner Runjabs, Throw Defense, Crossups, Crossup Throws, Special Moves, Punishers, Anti Air, Damage Protection, Pushback, Corner Resets, Fake Ducking, Wake Ups, Glitch Canceling, Relaunch Combos, and Off the Grounds. Mind Games play a huge role in UMK3 too. Some of these things are known in other fighters as well. The guides on ultimatemk.com go into detail on all of the aformentioned things.

UMK3 is the most balanced MK game period. It's just looked down upon because it's an "MK" game.
Then, I took issue w/ your tier list (mainly because you didnt say that this is YOUR OPINION, more or less saying its FACT, when its clearly not.

Tim Static said:
Phoenix you know thats YOUR tier list, not THE tier list. Your opinions are based off of online play only. Plus, the list better broken up into 4 parts: Top, High, Mid & Bottom.

The best tier list to use is the one Lex & Shock made:

Top:
1. Kabal
2. Human Smoke
3. Kung Lao
4. Kano
5. Reptile
6. Ermac

High:

7. Nightwolf
8. Robo Smoke
9. Sindel
10. Jax
11. Sonya

Mid:

12. Kitana
13. Stryker
14. Scorpion
15. Unmasked Sub-Zero
16. Jade
17. Liu Kang

Bottom:

18. Sektor
19. Classic Sub-Zero
20. Cyrax
21. Shang Tsung
22. Mileena
23. Sheeva

After talking to Lex, 1-14/15 are on lock down. And this from years and years of high level & tourney play. The rest of the list to determine the worst are still debatable.

But its no secret Mileena, Sheeva & Shang Tsung are the 3 worst in the game. FYI
so, more or less, you respond with this:

Only a few spots are my "opinion" actually. He made a new tier list, remember. And there is no such thing as "THE tier list", there's no official 100% list. And he said himself that the tier list is broken into three parts, those were his words.

1. Kabal
2. Human Smoke
3. Kung Lao
4. Ermac +2
5. Reptile
6. Kano -2
7. Nightwolf
8. Robot Smoke
9. Sindel
10. Jax
11. Sonya
12. Kitana
13. Stryker
14. Scorpion
15. Unmasked Sub-zero
16. Jade
17. Liu Kang
18. Sektor
19. Classic Sub-zero
20. Mileena +2
21. Cyrax -1
22. Sheeva +1
23. Shang Tsung -2


That's Shock's new tier list - http://ultimatemk.com/vForum/showthread.php?t=3718&page=4
Thats not HIS tier list. That whole thread was opened asking everyone for what they think they're opinion of the tier list is.

He took all the list people put it, and ranked them. (kinda like say, the Coaches Poll in college football. Everyone made the rankings, he took the numbers and put the list together.) Since all the online players were arguing over the tier list, which was made based on ofline/tourney play, he got tired of it, closed that thread and asked everyone to help with a UMK.com "site list".

OJuggernaut0 said:
No shit. You keep saying things like I don't know what's going on. The whole site tier list > Shocks tier list, period. My tier list is more accurate anyway, and that's the tier list I will use and show everyone.

So, exactly how is there NO list when Lex and the other Chicago cabs players made one that is the basis of the UMK.com tier list, which is the basis of that new site list, and for your list?

I dont have a problem with you using "your" list as long you let people know (because you made that thread to INFORM people about UMK3) that is your list and its based off your opinions from playing online.

That and because I want to bring some hopefully healthy MK discussions to this forum. Its been lacking of that.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Br0ken said:
Tim Static said:
Havn't you argued with him enough tim over at mku about this? Why bring the argument over here...I beleive your blowing this up more than it needs to be.
Oh, no no no. I wasnt even arguing with him there, really. Just disagreeing.

But I want to see more MK discussion here, so instead of me replying to him there, I'm doing it here.

I mean no disrespect, and Im not flaming. I just wanna discuss this, especially with more people that actually play UMK3, not MKvDC or MKD, etc.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Juggernaut's tier list is definitely only his and not a general tier list. But his is close to what most XBL players are debating to be an online tier list.

The tier list we had on UMK was based on Lex's and the rest of the chicago players input, but in my opinion times have definitely changed as do tier lists. More extremely good players, more tactics, and more infinites have shown up. Some of them from South America, some of them else where, but many of them are definitely able to hold their own and considered to be amongst the best, if not the best.

A few examples: (I don't have long or I could go on all night)

With Chaos Controls discovery of Cyrax's throw corner infinite for example is so easy to execute in matches and has so many set ups, mixed with the 100% combos he already had plus some of his better combos off a throw for example, there is no reason he should be lower than someone like Liu Kang and I don't care what anyone says, you not gonna beat a high level player with just his round house. Does that mean he moves up a lot? No, but I think a spot or 2 may be in order. Shock and I had discussed that. But if you don't believe the potential of it, play Kiki aka Game, then come back. I saw him bust it out on many people online.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-M7-iYV6GM&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

Also you have Reptile way too low. Reptile at his highest potential is one of the deadliest characters in this game and it doesn't matter if only a hand full of players can play him to that degree. Tier lists should be made scaling characters at their highest potential, not mediocre.

I do agree Kano should be lower, and this is coming from someone who regards himself as one of the better Kano players on XBL. He just doesn't have enough high damage combos (he has none really) to be able to hang with some of the characters placed even lower than him.

I do believe that Stryker should move up quite a bit. He can be a very hard character to win against and one screw up could mean game over.

That "new" tier list that was accumulated amongst everyone's input isn't a "new" tier list, it was just for data purposes basically. You can't take some of those lists posted seriously at all.

One thing is for certain though, and netplay does deserve it's own list to a degree. The downside of making a tier list for a game like UMK3 is, it has no offline scene anymore and you really cannot credibly make a tier list based off netplay. No other game has, but again that is because they still have offline followings. Like it or not, these 2d MK games (that are the best of all MK games tournament play wise) are considered to be obscure fighting games. Games like VF5, Tekken and Street Fighter have huge followings in Japan and even still here in the US to make tier lists possible.

This is a true example of how a tier list should be made:

http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html

Those players are considered the best in Japan with that specific character. In order to make a TRUE tier list, you would need to compile a list of the best Kabal player, Sheeva player, Reptile player, everyone. The best person with each character, and have them face every character in 10 match sessions.

The problem is, it is pretty much 100% IMPOSSIBLE to do today/anymore.

So all we have is netplay speculation and test results.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Wow, my man Dubs breaking it down.

Nice, and thank you.

Yeah, it is pretty impossible to figure out a real list like that through netplay, with the biggest problems being lag/button delay/frame loss. It can just destroy a match and nothing is proved. Therefor, yea, impossible to make an accurate online tier list, it is.

And one more thing, imo, I do think Kano is stil top 5-6. N, he doesnt have any legit high damaging combos, but he stiill does have a vast array of punisher options, best sweep (w/ Jax & blondie), best JK as in hardest to aaP, and alot of offensive options. He is without a doubt above NW, but is debatable w/ Rep & Ermac.

Keep the posts coming people. I miss this kinda of stuff :)
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I mainly changed Reptile's place because I feel he isn't as good as others think he is. Moreover better than the 6 in front of him. I believe him #6 and Kano #7 would be better actually. Even from the better Reptile players, I seem to not have to put much effort into beating them. I understand that this train of thought isn't what you're necessarily suppose to follow when making a tier list, but it's just how I feel. I merely made that post because some of the users were saying UMK3 was broke as hell, while they play 3D MK's religiously. It wasn't my official, or the official tier list. More of a generality of my opinion, and yes I should've said "IMO" but, there is NO "Official Tier List" for this game IMO.

Anywho, Reptile just doesn't seem like top 5 to me. I know his potential, and what he can and can't do. I have a way more difficult time facing Nightwolf, and Ermac than Reptile. Him being 6, IMO, is the perfect place for him.

Also, Cyrax is alot like Reptile. He has potential but no one can really use him to his full potential. That corner airthrow infinite should make Cyrax move up at least one spot. Ever since I've played PinkGodzilla's Cyrax, I've been thinking he should be ranked better on the tier list.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Yeah. If you keep the pressure on Reptile it is hard for him to win. But one mistake could mean game over, and there just are not any good enough reptile players (like ded_) on XBL.

But in regards to Tim's statement about Kano > Nightwolf, I just honestly cannot agree with it.

Regarding netplay at least. Even offline, I just don't know.
 

Br0ken

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I cant agree with kano being better than nightwolf either. Kano may be one of the fastest sweepers but his combos just flat out suck. With nightwolf its like his sweep is slow but it has long range. And what also makes nightwolf better than kano is the low hit combo he has, you can easily get 7 hits. I know kano has a low hitting popup hk lp just like human smoke's, but it doesnt take that much off even after jk airthrow. And also I feel when I play nightwolf his run jabs are more effective and have longer range than kano's. Also nightwolf is a better rusher simply because of his shoulder ram. Kano's run jabs have kinda short range. So IMO I feel nightwolf should be above kano in the tier list.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Kano's jabs are terrible.

Definitely amongst the worst.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

When I got tired of using Sindel nearly exlusively, I moved on to using Kano because of his ease of use (charging LK, blinding speed, Air throw). I really think he is pretty solid, but when i'm playing against Kano, or I'm playing as Kano against a high-skilled opponent, his weakness shows through. To be effective with Kano, in addition to general sweep spamming, you almost HAVE to leave the ground, either to go for a surprise air throw or during a cannonball. Maybe if he juggled off of his knife uppercut he'd be more dangerous, but it's just not the case.

The problem with this is just as always, the air is where you die. Period. He just doesn't have the supplemental strength to move up the list.

IMO, Nightwolf's biggest strength is that because of his wicked autocombo, shoulder dash, and aaAxe, he never really has to leave the ground. EVER.

I used to absolutely suck with Nightwolf. I was TERRIBLE. I'm still nowhere close to mastery, but I can say that as my skill with other characters has improved, I suddenly have the ability to be at least somewhat dangerous with him. My rushdowns, aa tactics, and just general coordination have improved with my main characters and apparently have bled over onto everyone else. I still rarely pick NW by choice, but I've been getting him a lot lately via Random select. And just from those matches that I've used him, and started to see his potential, I can say that IMO he does indeed deserve his spot.

Not to mention that a good NW beats me more often than not, no matter who I use.
 

Kaiba

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Kano is 4 or rounds out the top 5. He's has a vast array of destructive setups and the JK does wonders. Plus if you manage to get a chokehold its pretty devastating.
 
S

scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Too bad Sonya doesn't have a shoulder ram, man would that fuckin rape.
 

Pikachu

I Pikachu while you shower.
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Its hard for me to understand how Kano ranks higher than Reptile, on both lists.
If the tier lists are based on the characters at the fullest potentional. One would belive that Reptile would be ranked higher than Kano. I agree very much to what dubson wrote.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

An experienced reptile is better than an experienced kano IMO. But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

black album said:
But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
But the tier list doesnt work that way....
 

Pikachu

I Pikachu while you shower.
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Agreed Tim.
If you base the list on player skill. It would be a total mess.
Imagen me as Kabal and lex as Sheeva. Sheeva would be top-tier and almost unbeatable.

I dont get how Kano is ranked as high as he his. He has Cannonballs and sweeps going for him. Many of of his big damage combos are wall assisted. An infinte that is wall wall assited. That only work on some characters.

Campare him to Reptile Ermac and Nightwolf. Who are all very very dangerous. Hes still ranked above them. Id love to see someone defend his palce on the list. And cause I dont get it.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
Royal Contributor
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Let's make a fair comparison that not many people have considered, that I think of when people throw Kano's name around with top tier characters. Take a serious look at the differences between Kano and Liu Kang. This is a basic outline and no damage amounts will be included. So if you really want to know more details, look it up at ultimatemk.


Alike (both have these or very similar abilities)

-generally low maximum damage in all midscreen combos, even with Kano's chokehold combo sleepers to rushdown
-popups, relaunchers
-poor runjabs
-good anti air, Liu's rh and Kano's upward ball
-The cannonball can come out of nowhere, as can a slower bike kick or flying kick. All 3 have above average wakeup, the cannonball traditionally voted with the best wakeup of them...and perhaps of all moves in the game.
-Their jks are both tricky to aahp. Kinda useless to exploit sometimes because better players can scout this and just aarh instead with chars like H. Smoke and Reptile. Other chars that counter this with good rushdowns will run through and sweep, or fake the sweep and go to runjabs on Liu or Kano's landing.


Now the tricky part...
Differences

-Kano's corner combos and traps can be devastating, whereas Liu's options are no so fortunate. They may both have corner infs, but the difficulty can make them staggering to pull off, especially online.
-Kano's sweep is undoubtedly better, being much quicker.
-Liu's got afbs, Kano's got the slow startup blade toss from full screen. They're both essentially worthless except on distractions/rare wakeups, but share the rare zoning usage.
-THE AIR THROW. Liu can't really compete with it...Liu's anti air evasion with afbs is WAY slower than Kabal's or Kitana's.


Conclusion

Kano holds abilities that Liu Kang does not, such as his quicker sweep, cannonball wake up, and air throw. However, if you break it down a little further, these things shouldn't propel Kano to the top of the tier list.
-the sweep is short
-the cannonball is not dramatically quicker than the flying kick, and both are punishable
-the air throw doesn't add much damage to the already terrible damage totals, and is only successfully aborted by open jp combos or late jks.


So tell me? What is Kano, other than a slightly better Liu Kang? I often see people write that he's "easy to use because of his sweep and simplicity of charging lk while rushing"...which brings us back to the loophole that the list is NOT about player skill. His damage and capabilites are far below that of the top tier. He's even interchangeable with the upper part of the mid tier, I mean why not? When you compare sweeps, Jax and Sonya can compete. The air throw is just one special, nothing more than topping on a juggle or crossups. The cannonball can be anticipated or even baited like any other wakeup. This is, of course, just my personal opinion based on firsthand experiences playing and learning from others. Kano can be fun as hell to use, but he sucks compared to the chars in the traditional top tiers that are posted. My point is that Kano doesn't seem to be SO much better than Liu that he's cast as one of the best, with the few improvements above.

Side note: Please don't try to tell me that you could make these improvement comparisions with any 2 characters. If you have a rebuttle, then I would like to know your response without anyone belittling or creating tension. The last time I made a stance on characters being overrated, it didn't go too well lol. So be nice.
 
S

scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Tim Static said:
black album said:
But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
But the tier list doesnt work that way....
Stone said:
Agreed Tim.
If you base the list on player skill. It would be a total mess.
Imagen me as Kabal and lex as Sheeva. Sheeva would be top-tier and almost unbeatable.

I dont get how Kano is ranked as high as he his. He has Cannonballs and sweeps going for him. Many of of his big damage combos are wall assisted. An infinte that is wall wall assited. That only work on some characters.

Campare him to Reptile Ermac and Nightwolf. Who are all very very dangerous. Hes still ranked above them. Id love to see someone defend his palce on the list. And cause I dont get it.
Well "ease of use" does factor into the tier list from what I have read on umk.com. Although I never really understood exactly how much that counted as, nor do I think anyone else did.

Kano really is a fuckin spazz and has quick recovery for a lot of things that most people don't. I honestly think I have seen him put to good use a handful of times.

The main thing about Kano is, if he is used correctly it is damn near impossible to stop him from being the aggressor, because everything that he does leads to a rushdown, even his highest damage combos.

And that is mainly what makes a great character is the amount of options they have and making opportunities happen.

People break NW's combos just for an opportunity to continue rushdown and his combo doesnt even deal that much damage unless you put work into the juggles. Kano's combos may not be worth a lot (still pretty good damage, regardless) but you have to factor in chip damage from the rushdown plus the opportunities that it may create and recreate. The only thing that could be better is combo damage and run jabs.

I definitely do not think he is easy to use though.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I guess if a robot was playing as Kano, he could pretty much win strictly by countering everything the opponent does with cannonballs....

But as a human, winning with Kano is damn near a part time job.

You just can't count on beating good players with low damage combos, a nice jump kick and chip damage.

Dude just doesn't have enough umph.

Based on what we know now, he is nowhere near top 5. That list that had him as top 5 was made a very long time ago before many of today's greatest contenders and discoveries were known of.

We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....

;)