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UMK3 Tier list discussion

Kaiba

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Kano is 4 or rounds out the top 5. He's has a vast array of destructive setups and the JK does wonders. Plus if you manage to get a chokehold its pretty devastating.
 
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scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Too bad Sonya doesn't have a shoulder ram, man would that fuckin rape.
 

Pikachu

I Pikachu while you shower.
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Its hard for me to understand how Kano ranks higher than Reptile, on both lists.
If the tier lists are based on the characters at the fullest potentional. One would belive that Reptile would be ranked higher than Kano. I agree very much to what dubson wrote.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

An experienced reptile is better than an experienced kano IMO. But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

black album said:
But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
But the tier list doesnt work that way....
 

Pikachu

I Pikachu while you shower.
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Agreed Tim.
If you base the list on player skill. It would be a total mess.
Imagen me as Kabal and lex as Sheeva. Sheeva would be top-tier and almost unbeatable.

I dont get how Kano is ranked as high as he his. He has Cannonballs and sweeps going for him. Many of of his big damage combos are wall assisted. An infinte that is wall wall assited. That only work on some characters.

Campare him to Reptile Ermac and Nightwolf. Who are all very very dangerous. Hes still ranked above them. Id love to see someone defend his palce on the list. And cause I dont get it.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Let's make a fair comparison that not many people have considered, that I think of when people throw Kano's name around with top tier characters. Take a serious look at the differences between Kano and Liu Kang. This is a basic outline and no damage amounts will be included. So if you really want to know more details, look it up at ultimatemk.


Alike (both have these or very similar abilities)

-generally low maximum damage in all midscreen combos, even with Kano's chokehold combo sleepers to rushdown
-popups, relaunchers
-poor runjabs
-good anti air, Liu's rh and Kano's upward ball
-The cannonball can come out of nowhere, as can a slower bike kick or flying kick. All 3 have above average wakeup, the cannonball traditionally voted with the best wakeup of them...and perhaps of all moves in the game.
-Their jks are both tricky to aahp. Kinda useless to exploit sometimes because better players can scout this and just aarh instead with chars like H. Smoke and Reptile. Other chars that counter this with good rushdowns will run through and sweep, or fake the sweep and go to runjabs on Liu or Kano's landing.


Now the tricky part...
Differences

-Kano's corner combos and traps can be devastating, whereas Liu's options are no so fortunate. They may both have corner infs, but the difficulty can make them staggering to pull off, especially online.
-Kano's sweep is undoubtedly better, being much quicker.
-Liu's got afbs, Kano's got the slow startup blade toss from full screen. They're both essentially worthless except on distractions/rare wakeups, but share the rare zoning usage.
-THE AIR THROW. Liu can't really compete with it...Liu's anti air evasion with afbs is WAY slower than Kabal's or Kitana's.


Conclusion

Kano holds abilities that Liu Kang does not, such as his quicker sweep, cannonball wake up, and air throw. However, if you break it down a little further, these things shouldn't propel Kano to the top of the tier list.
-the sweep is short
-the cannonball is not dramatically quicker than the flying kick, and both are punishable
-the air throw doesn't add much damage to the already terrible damage totals, and is only successfully aborted by open jp combos or late jks.


So tell me? What is Kano, other than a slightly better Liu Kang? I often see people write that he's "easy to use because of his sweep and simplicity of charging lk while rushing"...which brings us back to the loophole that the list is NOT about player skill. His damage and capabilites are far below that of the top tier. He's even interchangeable with the upper part of the mid tier, I mean why not? When you compare sweeps, Jax and Sonya can compete. The air throw is just one special, nothing more than topping on a juggle or crossups. The cannonball can be anticipated or even baited like any other wakeup. This is, of course, just my personal opinion based on firsthand experiences playing and learning from others. Kano can be fun as hell to use, but he sucks compared to the chars in the traditional top tiers that are posted. My point is that Kano doesn't seem to be SO much better than Liu that he's cast as one of the best, with the few improvements above.

Side note: Please don't try to tell me that you could make these improvement comparisions with any 2 characters. If you have a rebuttle, then I would like to know your response without anyone belittling or creating tension. The last time I made a stance on characters being overrated, it didn't go too well lol. So be nice.
 
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scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Tim Static said:
black album said:
But if your an average player and can't do reptiles juggles then Kano would be better.
But the tier list doesnt work that way....
Stone said:
Agreed Tim.
If you base the list on player skill. It would be a total mess.
Imagen me as Kabal and lex as Sheeva. Sheeva would be top-tier and almost unbeatable.

I dont get how Kano is ranked as high as he his. He has Cannonballs and sweeps going for him. Many of of his big damage combos are wall assisted. An infinte that is wall wall assited. That only work on some characters.

Campare him to Reptile Ermac and Nightwolf. Who are all very very dangerous. Hes still ranked above them. Id love to see someone defend his palce on the list. And cause I dont get it.
Well "ease of use" does factor into the tier list from what I have read on umk.com. Although I never really understood exactly how much that counted as, nor do I think anyone else did.

Kano really is a fuckin spazz and has quick recovery for a lot of things that most people don't. I honestly think I have seen him put to good use a handful of times.

The main thing about Kano is, if he is used correctly it is damn near impossible to stop him from being the aggressor, because everything that he does leads to a rushdown, even his highest damage combos.

And that is mainly what makes a great character is the amount of options they have and making opportunities happen.

People break NW's combos just for an opportunity to continue rushdown and his combo doesnt even deal that much damage unless you put work into the juggles. Kano's combos may not be worth a lot (still pretty good damage, regardless) but you have to factor in chip damage from the rushdown plus the opportunities that it may create and recreate. The only thing that could be better is combo damage and run jabs.

I definitely do not think he is easy to use though.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I guess if a robot was playing as Kano, he could pretty much win strictly by countering everything the opponent does with cannonballs....

But as a human, winning with Kano is damn near a part time job.

You just can't count on beating good players with low damage combos, a nice jump kick and chip damage.

Dude just doesn't have enough umph.

Based on what we know now, he is nowhere near top 5. That list that had him as top 5 was made a very long time ago before many of today's greatest contenders and discoveries were known of.

We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....

;)
 
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scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....

;)
What do you need me for? Hop to it.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....
That would be fine, but as long as its known as a Online Tier list and based soley off netplay...
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

The list would be the same....

I wouldn't plan on revising a tier list under laggy or delayed conditions.

Mine and MistaKM's connection for example is pretty much as close to flawless as you can get.

Adjusting to the speed of offline and online play is all that would be required. Netplay doesn't make a character better than it would be offline. That is simply lag or delay causing you to mess up or react different.

People who are used to playing offline will naturally lose to things online they wouldn't offline because they are not used to the speed or delay. But characters do not get better or worse, nor can they do things online they can't do offline or vice versa. Characters stay the same, the people playing them are the ones who need to adjust.

Should a tier list be composed offline? Yes, if available. But for a game like this, it isn't available. So near flawless connections with 2 players of equal skill, who have properly adapted to the connection between them would be fine.

But if you know of a game that has a different tier list for online and offline play, please bring it to my attention.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I don't think online and offline should have different versions for a tier list.
 
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scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

black album said:
I don't think online and offline should have different versions for a tier list.
I don't think so either.

I don't think that it would hurt if we list a couple things that help characters during lag though.
example: Scorps hk,hk,lk, break, repeat combo is a pain in the fuckin ass to get out of in laggy/delayed conditions.

Lag fuckin sucks but it's part of the game. You can't just ignore the vast majority of players because online play isn't perfect. It shouldn't affect the core gameplay/tier list however.

Personally, I don't care about numbered tier lists. I would prefer grouping the characters rather than numbering them.
I'm pretty damn sure that is how almost everyone thinks of it anyway. It's not like people are like OMFG YOU PICKED HIM AND HE IS 1 HIGHER IN THE TIER LIST!

They know that Sektor is in a different group from H.Smoke.

*EDIT: If there is going to be a separate tier list made, I would rather see one that considers everything that characters have to offer, including infinites. I really don't understand why they aren't taken into consideration when high damage combos are very much a part of almost any fighting game known to man. Especially since nothing is banned in umk3 tourneys.

I honestly think Stryker is better than people give him credit for, mainly for this reason. Almost anything leads to an infinite and yet it isn't taken into consideration, then what is the point? Tier lists are for people that are trying to learn the game to understand how it works, why it works and who is a more effective character. Yet, such an enormous part of a lot of the characters is completely disregarded to make a tier list for people that already understand the game.

The only reason I even remotely agree on the MKDC tier lists is because those infinites are actually banned.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Yea, they should just note the advantages and disadvantages for lag but it shouldn't really affect the numbers.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Yeah, like Scheisse already mentioned, Stryker is one character who should most definitely be higher.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
Cyrax is definitely not the worst with that infinite Chaos Control discovered. All it takes is getting caught in one net (punisher or not) and either in the corner or pushed to (like Stryker), and the infinite is easy. He has many set-ups with it.

That combined with other 100% combos, he is not the worst in the game. That is all there is to it.

The worst character by himself is Shang Tsung. Obviously because when he morphs, he is no longer Shang Tsung.
I brought this from the "your best char" thread to discuss a little bit for sport. I agree with the points about Cyrax, he can't be the worst given his obvious stats on paper. His throw is arguably the most dangerous in the game, some people need to seriously consider that. It can lead to aapunch, net, and infinite. It can also lead to aalp, hp, run cancel, hp, jk on male ninjas, jax, and larger chars. And if you want to switch back to zoning, go with aapunch, rh.

I'd also like to edit into this post that I agree with Styker's underrated status. His game revolves around the infinite and simple high damage, which is why he's definitely not above the likes of Lao and Ermac; yet he is still a threat to anyone in the right hands.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
Yeah, like Scheisse already mentioned, Stryker is one character who should most definitely be higher.
I've been saying this for a LONG time.

I can't say I agree with you about Kano though. I guess he could go down a spot or two, but he is still definately top-tier.
When you get into the zone with him, your opponent just gets shut down at every turn. Vertical cannonballs destroy rush down. And although his combos damage-wise arent' anything special, they lead right into rushdown and not all character's combos do that. It's like Sonya's common autocombo then the JK Leg grab, it puts you right on top of them again.

RoboSmoke is another character I'd like to see a little higher on the tier list but I'll save that explanation for another day.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Nightwolf!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Gdw0tYvUc

LOL at the almost comeback!
^^^^If no one can beat you, you'd be the best in the world, making you a #10 - the player everyone models themselves after. Don't be modest, I've heard about you from American players, Hanzo.

Aren't Kung Lao and Kano Tournament-worthy also? I would assume Ermac as well since he can be played the same way as H. Smoke w/ the 2-mistake rule, only he requires a bit more skill, as I agree his combos ARE much more difficult to hit. I know I'm not really anyone special, but w/ the exception of combo-difficulty, and OTG-free hits what makes H. Smoke so much better than Ermac? Ermac has much better punishers, right? Or is it just because H. Smoke averages more wins in a series to 10 and nothing more?


EDIT: sorry, this post probably should have gone in the tier list discussion.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
^^^^If no one can beat you, you'd be the best in the world, making you a #10 - the player everyone models themselves after. Don't be modest, I've heard about you from American players, Hanzo.

Aren't Kung Lao and Kano Tournament-worthy also? I would assume Ermac as well since he can be played the same way as H. Smoke w/ the 2-mistake rule, only he requires a bit more skill, as I agree his combos ARE much more difficult to hit. I know I'm not really anyone special, but w/ the exception of combo-difficulty, and OTG-free hits what makes H. Smoke so much better than Ermac? Ermac has much better punishers, right? Or is it just because H. Smoke averages more wins in a series to 10 and nothing more?


EDIT: sorry, this post probably should have gone in the tier list discussion.
I moved this into tier list discussion.
Il try to anwser your questions. Kung Lao is definitely a tournament worthy character. Summoning will drive you crazy with his MK2 style keep away and safe dive kick shenanigans.
Kano is high tier also. While we dont see alot of him at tournaments I think its because Kano can be hard to play at really high levels.

Human Smoke and Ermac do play somewhat similar but they do have some differences and I think Human Smoke is unquestionably better for a few reasons:

1. Human Smoke has an air throw. Its only one move but I think it makes a dramatic difference. The air throw is rape. Once I learned how to abuse it I could totally neutralize Summonings Kung Lao almost with that move alone.
Summoning is a much better player than I am. I could not beat his Kung Lao with any other character but H.Smoke. Thats how good the air throw is.

2. Faster walking speed. Again it seems like a small thing but its really not. H.Smokes juggles are much easier than Ermacs because he can walk so much faster. Also its easier to move in and out of range of your opponents pokes to bait out a punishable move because he can move faster,

3. Combos. I think they are pretty even here. Human Smoke may edge out a little bit because of his versatility. H.Smoke can break 50% anywhere, anytime, whether off his 2 hit popup or a naked spear or a punish.

In the corner however Ermac is pure rape. Dont stand in the corner and get caught by a naked TKS from Ermac. I learned this the hard way at Road to Evo when I was this close to putting Shock into losers. One naked TKS from his Ermac changed everything. He took my whole life bar and all I could do was watch helplessly. I went in the corner and sobbed like a little girl. lol

Watch at 3:24 to see the rape. And take notice of where my life bar was when Shock started this combo. Im getting weepy again just watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2nisiZXJU
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
fyi everyone can be tourney worthy. if you are just that much better than everyone, you'll beat everyone with anyone.

tier lists are determined by the outcomes of head to head matches of those whose skill level is pratically the same. Like for example, me vs Hanzo or me vs Lex.



































































lmao BULLSHIT! but you get the idea, i think.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
I moved this into tier list discussion.
Il try to anwser your questions. Kung Lao is definitely a tournament worthy character. Summoning will drive you crazy with his MK2 style keep away and safe dive kick shenanigans.
Kano is high tier also. While we dont see alot of him at tournaments I think its because Kano can be hard to play at really high levels.
][/QUOTE]

Simon showed me how much Cannon Ball punishes and it's almost as useful as HatSpin or Psycho Spin, so w/ the exception of a few hit-priorities and a big difference between a properly played Kano on stick not pad and being one of those top players who can keep a Cannon balll charged while performing linkers and specials. This thin line would be the difference between a top Kano-user and a casual Kano-user. (i can't keep a charged Cannon Ball on paD)

Human Smoke and Ermac do play somewhat similar but they do have some differences and I think Human Smoke is unquestionably better for a few reasons:

1. Human Smoke has an air throw. Its only one move but I think it makes a dramatic difference. The air throw is rape. Once I learned how to abuse it I could totally neutralize Summonings Kung Lao almost with that move alone.
Summoning is a much better player than I am. I could not beat his Kung Lao with any other character but H.Smoke. Thats how good the air throw is.
]
I'm not sure which part of reality hit me harder, the air throw or the faster walking speed, but you can almost see my cerebral palsy the way I just question those facts I already knew (-_-)

2. Faster walking speed. Again it seems like a small thing but its really not. H.Smokes juggles are much easier than Ermacs because he can walk so much faster. Also its easier to move in and out of range of your opponents pokes to bait out a punishable move because he can move faster,
][/QUOTE]

See above.

3. Combos. I think they are pretty even here. Human Smoke may edge out a little bit because of his versatility. H.Smoke can break 50% anywhere, anytime, whether off his 2 hit popup or a naked spear or a punish.
][/QUOTE]

When i read it made me realize that Ermac has a harder time dishing out his 50%'ers, knocking him down the list. Ermac not having a *Stun-hit-free stun-hit* and the rest of H. Smoke's combo-initiating ability definitel6 hurts the Ermac-player when fighting H. Smoke

In the corner however Ermac is pure rape. Dont stand in the corner and get caught by a naked TKS from Ermac. I learned this the hard way at Road to Evo when I was this close to putting Shock into losers. One naked TKS from his Ermac changed everything. He took my whole life bar and all I could do was watch helplessly. I went in the corner and sobbed like a little girl. lol
][/QUOTE]

I remember the video you posted. It was insane and I asked Shock to do it while he was here ;) You should feel priveldiged - you only got crushed by Shock's Ermac...I got crushed by Shock's AND Simon's one after another :(

Watch at 3:24 to see the rape. And take notice of where my life bar was when Shock started this combo. Im getting weepy again just watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2nisiZXJU
][/QUOTE]

Your job here like everywhere else has been well-spent. Even after only being here 6 months, you have absorbed so much UMK3 info it makes you SEEM like u been playing forever. I thought the sickest part of your post was unwritten in that it made me feel like I was talking to someone who was playing for a decade or that one very gifted BLACK DRAGON-All Star-Player did his muthafuckin homework.

Thanks for the input. Dark Rob for President, Ladies and Gentlemed


P.S. Can someone show me how to create a poll? :D