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UMK3 Tier list discussion

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scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....

;)
What do you need me for? Hop to it.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
We were working on a team of top players to revise a new tier list, but the site went under and it got ditched. It may have gotten done if that guy who posted above me wasn't so lazy sometimes....
That would be fine, but as long as its known as a Online Tier list and based soley off netplay...
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

The list would be the same....

I wouldn't plan on revising a tier list under laggy or delayed conditions.

Mine and MistaKM's connection for example is pretty much as close to flawless as you can get.

Adjusting to the speed of offline and online play is all that would be required. Netplay doesn't make a character better than it would be offline. That is simply lag or delay causing you to mess up or react different.

People who are used to playing offline will naturally lose to things online they wouldn't offline because they are not used to the speed or delay. But characters do not get better or worse, nor can they do things online they can't do offline or vice versa. Characters stay the same, the people playing them are the ones who need to adjust.

Should a tier list be composed offline? Yes, if available. But for a game like this, it isn't available. So near flawless connections with 2 players of equal skill, who have properly adapted to the connection between them would be fine.

But if you know of a game that has a different tier list for online and offline play, please bring it to my attention.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

I don't think online and offline should have different versions for a tier list.
 
S

scheissn

Guest
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

black album said:
I don't think online and offline should have different versions for a tier list.
I don't think so either.

I don't think that it would hurt if we list a couple things that help characters during lag though.
example: Scorps hk,hk,lk, break, repeat combo is a pain in the fuckin ass to get out of in laggy/delayed conditions.

Lag fuckin sucks but it's part of the game. You can't just ignore the vast majority of players because online play isn't perfect. It shouldn't affect the core gameplay/tier list however.

Personally, I don't care about numbered tier lists. I would prefer grouping the characters rather than numbering them.
I'm pretty damn sure that is how almost everyone thinks of it anyway. It's not like people are like OMFG YOU PICKED HIM AND HE IS 1 HIGHER IN THE TIER LIST!

They know that Sektor is in a different group from H.Smoke.

*EDIT: If there is going to be a separate tier list made, I would rather see one that considers everything that characters have to offer, including infinites. I really don't understand why they aren't taken into consideration when high damage combos are very much a part of almost any fighting game known to man. Especially since nothing is banned in umk3 tourneys.

I honestly think Stryker is better than people give him credit for, mainly for this reason. Almost anything leads to an infinite and yet it isn't taken into consideration, then what is the point? Tier lists are for people that are trying to learn the game to understand how it works, why it works and who is a more effective character. Yet, such an enormous part of a lot of the characters is completely disregarded to make a tier list for people that already understand the game.

The only reason I even remotely agree on the MKDC tier lists is because those infinites are actually banned.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Yea, they should just note the advantages and disadvantages for lag but it shouldn't really affect the numbers.
 

dubson

Noob
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

Yeah, like Scheisse already mentioned, Stryker is one character who should most definitely be higher.
 

Dreamcatcher

EFL Founder
Royal Contributor
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
Cyrax is definitely not the worst with that infinite Chaos Control discovered. All it takes is getting caught in one net (punisher or not) and either in the corner or pushed to (like Stryker), and the infinite is easy. He has many set-ups with it.

That combined with other 100% combos, he is not the worst in the game. That is all there is to it.

The worst character by himself is Shang Tsung. Obviously because when he morphs, he is no longer Shang Tsung.
I brought this from the "your best char" thread to discuss a little bit for sport. I agree with the points about Cyrax, he can't be the worst given his obvious stats on paper. His throw is arguably the most dangerous in the game, some people need to seriously consider that. It can lead to aapunch, net, and infinite. It can also lead to aalp, hp, run cancel, hp, jk on male ninjas, jax, and larger chars. And if you want to switch back to zoning, go with aapunch, rh.

I'd also like to edit into this post that I agree with Styker's underrated status. His game revolves around the infinite and simple high damage, which is why he's definitely not above the likes of Lao and Ermac; yet he is still a threat to anyone in the right hands.
 
UMK3 Tier list discussion (taken from Phoenix's thread @ MKU.com)

dubson said:
Yeah, like Scheisse already mentioned, Stryker is one character who should most definitely be higher.
I've been saying this for a LONG time.

I can't say I agree with you about Kano though. I guess he could go down a spot or two, but he is still definately top-tier.
When you get into the zone with him, your opponent just gets shut down at every turn. Vertical cannonballs destroy rush down. And although his combos damage-wise arent' anything special, they lead right into rushdown and not all character's combos do that. It's like Sonya's common autocombo then the JK Leg grab, it puts you right on top of them again.

RoboSmoke is another character I'd like to see a little higher on the tier list but I'll save that explanation for another day.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Nightwolf!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Gdw0tYvUc

LOL at the almost comeback!
^^^^If no one can beat you, you'd be the best in the world, making you a #10 - the player everyone models themselves after. Don't be modest, I've heard about you from American players, Hanzo.

Aren't Kung Lao and Kano Tournament-worthy also? I would assume Ermac as well since he can be played the same way as H. Smoke w/ the 2-mistake rule, only he requires a bit more skill, as I agree his combos ARE much more difficult to hit. I know I'm not really anyone special, but w/ the exception of combo-difficulty, and OTG-free hits what makes H. Smoke so much better than Ermac? Ermac has much better punishers, right? Or is it just because H. Smoke averages more wins in a series to 10 and nothing more?


EDIT: sorry, this post probably should have gone in the tier list discussion.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
^^^^If no one can beat you, you'd be the best in the world, making you a #10 - the player everyone models themselves after. Don't be modest, I've heard about you from American players, Hanzo.

Aren't Kung Lao and Kano Tournament-worthy also? I would assume Ermac as well since he can be played the same way as H. Smoke w/ the 2-mistake rule, only he requires a bit more skill, as I agree his combos ARE much more difficult to hit. I know I'm not really anyone special, but w/ the exception of combo-difficulty, and OTG-free hits what makes H. Smoke so much better than Ermac? Ermac has much better punishers, right? Or is it just because H. Smoke averages more wins in a series to 10 and nothing more?


EDIT: sorry, this post probably should have gone in the tier list discussion.
I moved this into tier list discussion.
Il try to anwser your questions. Kung Lao is definitely a tournament worthy character. Summoning will drive you crazy with his MK2 style keep away and safe dive kick shenanigans.
Kano is high tier also. While we dont see alot of him at tournaments I think its because Kano can be hard to play at really high levels.

Human Smoke and Ermac do play somewhat similar but they do have some differences and I think Human Smoke is unquestionably better for a few reasons:

1. Human Smoke has an air throw. Its only one move but I think it makes a dramatic difference. The air throw is rape. Once I learned how to abuse it I could totally neutralize Summonings Kung Lao almost with that move alone.
Summoning is a much better player than I am. I could not beat his Kung Lao with any other character but H.Smoke. Thats how good the air throw is.

2. Faster walking speed. Again it seems like a small thing but its really not. H.Smokes juggles are much easier than Ermacs because he can walk so much faster. Also its easier to move in and out of range of your opponents pokes to bait out a punishable move because he can move faster,

3. Combos. I think they are pretty even here. Human Smoke may edge out a little bit because of his versatility. H.Smoke can break 50% anywhere, anytime, whether off his 2 hit popup or a naked spear or a punish.

In the corner however Ermac is pure rape. Dont stand in the corner and get caught by a naked TKS from Ermac. I learned this the hard way at Road to Evo when I was this close to putting Shock into losers. One naked TKS from his Ermac changed everything. He took my whole life bar and all I could do was watch helplessly. I went in the corner and sobbed like a little girl. lol

Watch at 3:24 to see the rape. And take notice of where my life bar was when Shock started this combo. Im getting weepy again just watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2nisiZXJU
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
fyi everyone can be tourney worthy. if you are just that much better than everyone, you'll beat everyone with anyone.

tier lists are determined by the outcomes of head to head matches of those whose skill level is pratically the same. Like for example, me vs Hanzo or me vs Lex.



































































lmao BULLSHIT! but you get the idea, i think.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
I moved this into tier list discussion.
Il try to anwser your questions. Kung Lao is definitely a tournament worthy character. Summoning will drive you crazy with his MK2 style keep away and safe dive kick shenanigans.
Kano is high tier also. While we dont see alot of him at tournaments I think its because Kano can be hard to play at really high levels.
][/QUOTE]

Simon showed me how much Cannon Ball punishes and it's almost as useful as HatSpin or Psycho Spin, so w/ the exception of a few hit-priorities and a big difference between a properly played Kano on stick not pad and being one of those top players who can keep a Cannon balll charged while performing linkers and specials. This thin line would be the difference between a top Kano-user and a casual Kano-user. (i can't keep a charged Cannon Ball on paD)

Human Smoke and Ermac do play somewhat similar but they do have some differences and I think Human Smoke is unquestionably better for a few reasons:

1. Human Smoke has an air throw. Its only one move but I think it makes a dramatic difference. The air throw is rape. Once I learned how to abuse it I could totally neutralize Summonings Kung Lao almost with that move alone.
Summoning is a much better player than I am. I could not beat his Kung Lao with any other character but H.Smoke. Thats how good the air throw is.
]
I'm not sure which part of reality hit me harder, the air throw or the faster walking speed, but you can almost see my cerebral palsy the way I just question those facts I already knew (-_-)

2. Faster walking speed. Again it seems like a small thing but its really not. H.Smokes juggles are much easier than Ermacs because he can walk so much faster. Also its easier to move in and out of range of your opponents pokes to bait out a punishable move because he can move faster,
][/QUOTE]

See above.

3. Combos. I think they are pretty even here. Human Smoke may edge out a little bit because of his versatility. H.Smoke can break 50% anywhere, anytime, whether off his 2 hit popup or a naked spear or a punish.
][/QUOTE]

When i read it made me realize that Ermac has a harder time dishing out his 50%'ers, knocking him down the list. Ermac not having a *Stun-hit-free stun-hit* and the rest of H. Smoke's combo-initiating ability definitel6 hurts the Ermac-player when fighting H. Smoke

In the corner however Ermac is pure rape. Dont stand in the corner and get caught by a naked TKS from Ermac. I learned this the hard way at Road to Evo when I was this close to putting Shock into losers. One naked TKS from his Ermac changed everything. He took my whole life bar and all I could do was watch helplessly. I went in the corner and sobbed like a little girl. lol
][/QUOTE]

I remember the video you posted. It was insane and I asked Shock to do it while he was here ;) You should feel priveldiged - you only got crushed by Shock's Ermac...I got crushed by Shock's AND Simon's one after another :(

Watch at 3:24 to see the rape. And take notice of where my life bar was when Shock started this combo. Im getting weepy again just watching this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci2nisiZXJU
][/QUOTE]

Your job here like everywhere else has been well-spent. Even after only being here 6 months, you have absorbed so much UMK3 info it makes you SEEM like u been playing forever. I thought the sickest part of your post was unwritten in that it made me feel like I was talking to someone who was playing for a decade or that one very gifted BLACK DRAGON-All Star-Player did his muthafuckin homework.

Thanks for the input. Dark Rob for President, Ladies and Gentlemed


P.S. Can someone show me how to create a poll? :D
 

O Juggernaut 0

Ambassador
fyi everyone can be tourney worthy. if you are just that much better than everyone, you'll beat everyone with anyone.
Not in all games though, only a few are balanced enough for you to be able to accomplish this. UMK3 isn't amazingly balanced, but balanced enough that any character can win. Dunno why I brought that up, lol.

tier lists are determined by the outcomes of head to head matches of those whose skill level is pratically the same.
Exactly, but to dwell a little deeper. Imagine a tier list as if though robots were playing the game perfectly. They are playing the characters to their full potential with no mistakes. So, when two humans play, the results won't always be what the tier lists indicate, since humans aren't perfect and can never play perfect all the time. Even amazing players like Daigo in SF4, make plenty of mistakes.

The UMK3 tier list is kinda unique in the fact that it's not set-up like any other tier list. There's no match-up chart that I am aware of, so I'm not quite sure how they came up with the tier list for UMK3. I also don't think it should be a 1-23 numbered tier list, I believe it should be divided by A, B, C etc, with multiple characters being in either one. This, again, is how it's done in other games, and I think it should be done with UMK3 as well. But, the game is so old I think people already have a very good idea of who is good against who and who is good in general. It would be nice for newcomers though, to have a match-up chart based tier list.

People focus too much time on tier lists though. I'm kinda glad there's no match-up chart in UMK3. I have become quite sick of getting messages in SSF4 saying "I only lost because that is a 6:4 match-up". It's the lamest excuse I get because it's so easy to fall back on and because of that you don't improve. You won't try and figure the match out because when you lose you can just say it's a bad match-up that's why you lost. The only way this is true is when it gets to 8:2+ match-ups, maybe 7:3, but in both cases it's still winnable.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
I want to do a match up chart badly and make a redefined tier list broken up into groups. The one we've used for so long has generally be based on frequency of use, tournament success, and simple logic math and science based upon gameplay facts. The problem is no one has the time, and the only real place to do it is at a tournament.
 

O Juggernaut 0

Ambassador
I want to do a match up chart badly and make a redefined tier list broken up into groups. The one we've used for so long has generally be based on frequency of use, tournament success, and simple logic math and science based upon gameplay facts. The problem is no one has the time, and the only real place to do it is at a tournament.
I would love one for UMK3 too, just to have it. I would attempt to make one, but most of my experience is online based, and the match-up tier lists are based on tournaments. I've only been to one tournament, so I'm not exactly qualified. I do think I could help though, if needed.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
The tier list we have is considerably outdated, but not as outdated as the old Chicago tier list. It's been talked about on here for years but it's really time to do it. We can put some players against each other at the next tournament, of equal skill, but perhaps ensuring the characters chosen are being used by players who know what they are doing with them. I don't personally know many players who can use every single character to an effective level in the game but we have enough to cover the board.
 

Godking Nori

The Edenian Candidate
Premium Supporter
I did not play UMK3 on a competitive level (gonna start now, never too late right?): Why is Shang so bad?
 

NobilityV3

Smalls deep.
Yes, but I wanted multiple opinions, not just 1 person. You don't get better at a game listening to just one source
The tier list are actually the characters who have the most useful specials when utilizing the run-jab method. So, if you are playing at competitive-play, this list is relevant. If not, in a run-jab free zone, anything is possible.

And Shock, can you at least give us one substantial change to the tier list?