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TYM's Hot Topic of the Week: Do we ban Scorpion from tournament play?

Should Scorpion be banned from tournaments?


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RexyWrecks

RTSD All Day. I'm going in. No Vaseline.
AK Pig Of The Hut
A F0xy Grampa

This post is what how I actually feel towards this debate.

Let me clear up the mkt/mk4 comparisons I made. I understand that igau has back to block and that mkt/mk4 have a block button. But you need to look past that. My actual comparison between scorpion in igau and older mk games is the following. I feel like sometimes when you are on defense in the older mks that you kind of have to play a rock paper scissors game.

I feel that scorpion makes you do this similar sort of guessing game in injustice, but he is the ONLY character that does this and it makes no sense. I wasn't making the comparison in full seriousness yesterday, so I never truly explained this. If I did, everyone would see that I do agree he is out of place. All the characters in the older mks play a certain way and have a block button, so there is a flow to the game. However, like I said, scorpion is the only one in the game who does this.

I do not like to ban characters or stages or anything of the like in most fighters. Unless nothing is proven to counter it. I am always a player who will look for things to counter something deemed "broken" or "over-powered". But in this case it's not that he is broken as a whole, it is just the teleport. It does not belong in a game like this. There really is nothing to look for because of how teleport works currently.

Killer Frost and Batgirl force opponents into guessing games as well and yet they still follow the mechanics of the game.
 

zaf

professor
Killer Frost and Batgirl force opponents into guessing games as well and yet they still follow the mechanics of the game.
I agree. When i said scorpion was the only one. I meant only one that does it with the block mechanics
 

RWDY Nori

Where is crossplay?
Also people comparing Kabal to Scorpion don't understand either game it seems. Kabal fit IN the system and was the best at using it to his advantage. Scorpion is GAME BREAKING, there is no block button for his teleport abuse. Very different. It's giving a tool to a char that nobody else has that can be abused over and over and VERY FEW chars can properly punish. Kabal was just really good FROM from broken. The best and broken are not the same, and a lot of you people seem to think it is
 

MagicMan357

"130 ms is more legit than Labbing" - TYM
Before listening to the podcast, you'd have to be an idiot not to see that.

How? Most of the top players didnt even go in depth of how bad he was and all the other people just kept screaming he was broken. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction but brady actually went in depth about all of his bullshit. All ive seen in these forums is "BOOHOO j3 is broken!!!"

Now its undeniable

All the need to do is make tele mid and only allow MB on hit
 

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
injustice is actually a good game, a bad tournament result won't kill the game. T6 was still played even after Bob killed it. Chun ran 3rd strike for 10 years , ect. Marvel still has the most participants despite Morrigan Doom.
Actually, T6 was dead after Bob killed it. Only the total diehards continued to play that game. Everyone else quit. Even *I* quit, and I was a hardcore Tekkenite tournament player for a decade. 3S kept going because there was nothing else that was better.

MVC3 is fine despite Morridoom. A lot of people are trying with lukewarm results... it's Chris G that makes Morridoom. In MVC3, we're actually starting to see MORE characters than ever being completely viable. Haggar, Chris, Hulk, Iron Man, Joe, MODOK and Skrull are all seeing a lot more play lately.

Scorpion breaks the IGAU system so bad that he's going to absolutely murder character diversity and this game in general. It'll die real fast. With all of the great games out right now (TTT2, SF4, KOF, MVC3), why waste your time playing an unbalanced mess? Players will just go play a different game.
 

ReZo

MKX
So how many of you have actually contacted Mr. Wizard?
What is his twitter? I dont have a twitter account, But, I would make a twitter account just to tell Wizard about this broken nonsense. I dont want my current favorite game to get dropped by everyone but the diehards because of Scorpion. Honestly, if he is left alone as he is right now, Im quitting this game myself along with thousands of others. And I dont want to see Injustice die after EVO, but it will happen if you leave it like it is right now.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
What is his twitter? I dont have a twitter account, But, I would make a twitter account just to tell Wizard about this broken nonsense. I dont want my current favorite game to get dropped by everyone but the diehards because of Scorpion. Honestly, if he is left alone as he is right now, Im quitting this game myself along with thousands of others. And I dont want to see Injustice die after EVO, but it will happen if you leave it like it is right now.
@EvilMrWizard

Edit: "Thousands of others" is an extreme exaggeration. There is not even 500 people who think he should be banned
 

Vogue

Noob
Unless CEO proves without a doubt that this character should be banned EVO is going to let it rock. EVO takes a pretty hard stance on not banning anything unless it makes the game unplayable. The fact that some characters can actually compete with him and certain players are advoacting for his use since they main him will force EVO to let it rock and let the tournament results show. My only hope is that CEO top 8 is 8 scorpions.
 

ReZo

MKX
@EvilMrWizard

Edit: "Thousands of others" is an extreme exaggeration. There is not even 500 people who think he should be banned
Oh yeah? So take all the tekken guys, Capcom guys, who clearly have a game to go back to. Do you think they will sit through this stupid shit? Hell no. There are even people from this community who only play Injustice who are quitting because of this shit.

After Perfect Legend beat Alucard in the tournament with Scorpion. Alucard looked over at PL and said "I'm quitting this game."

What happens when all of the people who play this game, who came from other games, start having to deal with this unbalanced mess? They say fk it and go back to their own respective games. CDjr has said it, Tyrant has, Alucard, Cat, the list goes on and on.

It is sad to think that all the great FGC players from other games who came together on injustice, who helped build the characters up from day 1 with us, are going to quit because of 1 broken character.
 

ReZo

MKX
Unless CEO proves without a doubt that this character should be banned EVO is going to let it rock. EVO takes a pretty hard stance on not banning anything unless it makes the game unplayable. The fact that some characters can actually compete with him and certain players are advoacting for his use since they main him will force EVO to let it rock and let the tournament results show. My only hope is that CEO top 8 is 8 scorpions.

Agreed. It wont be because REO isn't even going to CEO, Just Perfect Legend. Djtmit isn't going either.

Gonna be stupid to have to play WW or AM or Scorpion to compete in this game in tournaments.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Oh yeah? So take all the tekken guys, Capcom guys, who clearly have a game to go back to. Do you think they will sit through this stupid shit? Hell no. There are even people from this community who only play Injustice who are quitting because of this shit.

After Perfect Legend beat Alucard in the tournament with Scorpion. Alucard looked over at PL and said "I'm quitting this game."

What happens when all of the people who play this game, who came from other games, start having to deal with this unbalanced mess? They say fk it and go back to their own respective games. CDjr has said it, Tyrant has, Alucard, Cat, the list goes on and on.

It is sad to think that all the great FGC players from other games who came together on injustice, who helped build the characters up from day 1 with us, are going to quit because of 1 broken character.
There are maybe a thousand tournament players for this game currently, and that is being generous. Most of them are probably playing for fun and do not care about scorpion. At most 2-300 will quit the game(probably less).

I am not even speaking to whether Scorpion is broken or not. Just saying that there isnt even "Thousands: of competitive players
 

ReZo

MKX
There are maybe a thousand tournament players for this game currently, and that is being generous. Most of them are probably playing for fun and do not care about scorpion. At most 2-300 will quit the game(probably less).

I am not even speaking to whether Scorpion is broken or not. Just saying that there isnt even "Thousands: of competitive players

The game is early, there are ALOT of people who play it competitively who can't afford to pay $700 to fly to EVO, or who can't afford to Fly to CEO. There are sleepers, and I guarentee you there is more than a thousand competitive players saying: "Man I wish I could go to this tournament or that tournament." The game already sold over a million copies. To not think there is one thousand competitive players out of a million is disgraceful to this community.
 

dookieagain

Last Bastion of Arcades
For people who are saying that Scorpion can't be banned because he may have bad matchups and he has been ranked below 1 on the tier list before. Now I don't have a strong opinion on banning him or not. I am not a high enough level player to really know for sure, but I do have a history with fighting games.

For that reason I want to talk about a character named O. Sagat. Now O. Sagat is not the best character in Super Turbo. He actually has bad matchups against Claw and Boxer as well as Dhalsim, however he also has multiple 9-1 and 8-2 matchups. So although he isn't broken, he forces character selection in a way very few other characters do.

http://www.strevival.com/strategy/rankingchart2013/

So next I'm just going to post a long excerpt of David Sirlin's perennial Playing to Win.

"That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then?"

So that's the question. I think Scorpion is very much akin to O. Sagat. His inclusion invalidates certain otherwise viable characters completely, however he is not dominant in a way that is unbeatable and clear cut like ST Akuma.

(Full text of the article: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html)
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
The game is early, there are ALOT of people who play it competitively who can't afford to pay $700 to fly to EVO, or who can't afford to Fly to CEO. There are sleepers, and I guarentee you there is more than a thousand competitive players saying: "Man I wish I could go to this tournament or that tournament." The game already sold over a million copies. To not think there is one thousand competitive players out of a million is disgraceful to this community.
Yes I am a disgrace even though I pretty much spend all my time writing guides to help the community.

And yes, there are probably less than a thousand competing at tournies RIGHT NOW because like you said most do not have a scene or money to play them. Out of those million copies sold 99% of them were because the game has batman and superman, and get this: Is FUN for even the most casual of players. The competitive aspect of a community is a miniscule amount in any game because 99% of people game for fun and dont take it that serious.
 

Vogue

Noob
For people who are saying that Scorpion can't be banned because he may have bad matchups and he has been ranked below 1 on the tier list before. Now I don't have a strong opinion on banning him or not. I am not a high enough level player to really know for sure, but I do have a history with fighting games.

(Full text of the article: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html)
All of your points are valid. The problem is that in this day and age there are a ton of fighters. There are almost too many fighters. Not everyone wants to pick one of the 5 characters that can fight scorp just to compete in the game(as people did with O.Sagat). They would rather just go back to whatever they were playing before Injustice which sucks because I love this game and think it was one of the greatest fighting games since 2009 pre-scorpion. Now its a joke.
 
guys, I'm just a random stream monster . As a part of FGC, I just want to relay the message from the South East Asia Major 2013 winner himself (Rchusan) who used scorpion .
So I attached here the conversation I had between me and him in toughcookie chat recently. Basically he agreed that scorpion is a super broken character, and he could win by playing like scrub.
 

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