Turning Liu Kangs F43xx Tools Against Him (Short Guide)

[lordlosh]

He isn't my main or my character. I legit hated the character until I labbed him. I don't believe you labbed him enough. Its very possibleyoue jade struggles against his tools. That doesn't make a character broke.

Its reactable I've proven that but let's say some can't well that's not a benchmark to nerf a character. I don't know if you understand this but he had jailing before the patch and they nerfed his cancels his F3xxSS3 has a gap now and every option after F4 is unsafe other than blocking. My answer to those who can't react is to practice until they can.
Labbing a character with your main is not enough. There are bad matchups with every character.
I'm currently maining him for 3 weeks same I've done with many others. I no longer have a problem with LK because of it.
Take my challenge I bet it will surprise you.

Who are you trying to convince that he is not your main, cause this is pretty obvious.
Most top players already said he is stupid broken and he needs to be balanced by one way or another.
And very comfy you miss my post where i ask you about your video and how its make.
It was obvious after one of the move how late you make him block.
You still missed my post where i post a video how Top Pro players get hit by his F4 mix, so if it was so easy to react on 323727832783872837 option he have, shouldnt they punish this move everytime arround ?

And its not true that every other option after F4 its unsafe. Firstable they are safe. You need to risk to punish on recovery. Cause on block they are safe.
Yet you are still wrong that he have no other safe option after F4. He can throw, he can D1, D3, D4 and he is still safe. This all option for him and you have to guess what he will do.
When he have 4382342838238 options its a read.
While some people have hard time reacting to Sub OH, Sub-Zero have 1 option, and its obvious when he will go for it.
And you cant compare him to Jacqui, because Jacqui have no zoning in his tools.

He is OP, because he have it all. Best pressure in the game, best turn stealer in the game, best zoner in the game for mixed character, great full screen Move to punish everything, one of or the best anti-air in the game. I would say he have the best FB and KB in terms on landing. Should i mention his hitbox issue with is FB, F4, Throw animation ?

And i was saying from the day 1, that he is the top of the top. All can check that.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Who are you trying to convince that he is not your main, cause this is pretty obvious

He has been my main for 5 days as explained above. I've used many characters but my mains are: Kotal, Shang, Nightwolf and Cassie YQ. I was challenged to use the character for 3 weeks and see if I felt the same way about him. It changed my mind.

Most top players already said he is stupid broken and he needs to be balanced by one way or another.

Many top players say characters are broke this isn't anything new and most of the characters have been called broke through the games life even Kotal.

And very comfy you miss my post where i ask you about your video and how its make.
It was obvious after one of the move how late you make him block.

It was made via XB record feature.

How late he blocked? It doesn't matter when they block I actually didn't have them set to block. Look at the video again and you will see the punish message appear on screen that only haoeneds if they can't block because they are still in negative frames.

You still missed my post where i post a video how Top Pro players get hit by his F4 mix, so if it was so easy to react on 323727832783872837 option he have, shouldnt they punish this move everytime arround ?

No move will go unpunished.
Top players utilize all tools and playing at that level you can hit players with almost anything because they have to lookout for so many options and players make mistakes.

unsafe. Firstable they are safe. You need to risk to punish on recovery. Cause on block they are safe.
Yet you are still wrong that he have no other safe option after F4.

All options after F43 if he cancels it are punishable On block including:
F43xxFireball
F43xxLow Fireball
F43xx Amp-Fireball
F43xxAmpLowFireball
F43xxFlyKick
F43xxBicycleKick
F43xxParry
F43xxShoalinStancexxanything
ECT
How about you name an option after F43 that is safe other than F4 and F43?

"lordlosh, post: 2580636, member: 62818"]
And you cant compare him to Jacqui, because Jacqui have no zoning in his tools.
[/QUOTE]
Jacqui is very strong and has mad pressure And many options and very good gap closers and really doesn't need zoning to be top tier.

Should i mention his hitbox issue with is FB, F4, Throw animation ?

I mentioned that above

And i was saying from the day 1, that he is the top of the top. All can check that.

Ohh we all know you have complained about him since day 1. I don't believe he was top ten before patch and neither did the top players and that was reflected in their tier lists. He was a solid balanced character.
His hurtbox issues are dumb but he is pretty balanced as is he is just the new target after patch. Just a few adjustments and he will be perfect imo

 

[Kanalratte]

sonicfox and tweedy also say he's currently no.1 and those are top of the top mk11 players. if you think he's balanced you're just downplaying him.

 

[PreNerf_]

Here's a new concept for you. Different characters have different issues vs broken shit because they, themselves work differently.

Ok, well what's funny is I don't have a problem with Liu Kang at all. And what's even funnier is that what people who about is his f43 mind game. The reason my little brother started this thread is because everyone always cries Nerf when they have trouble with something instead of just labbing it up. So instead of watching another character getting nerfed he just gave you guys the tools to understand how to beat Liu Kang. Nothing he has is broke. It's all punishable on reaction and the rest is punishable on read. Nobody even talks about the only tool he has that's even partially almost broken and that's his 12 cause it's plus on hit and you can jail into it. This game is sooooo watered down compared to older titles. Almost boring at times cause the characters are one dimensional. Do you know why the characters came (prenerfed)? Cause everyone in the community cried about it in the last two games. So now we have less combinability, less character mobility, less mind games, less damaging combos, less pressure, ECT, the list could probably go on for an hour. And here we are again. Ven though this game is pre-watered down and gutted.... Still people are whining about things to be toned down even more. God forbid nrs comes out with another game. Cause when they do i hope that they don't listen to everyone and make it the most boring fighting game to date. I guess they could just make mk1 all over, but then again i have this sneaking suspicion that there would be people crying about how broke a three hit juggle would be. I don't even play Liu Kang really at all. But I love it when people play Liu Kang cause I almost always win. Same with scorpion. Everyone pre patch were freaking out about his teleport saying how broken he was and when I got beat by a few scorpions i went into the lab and learned how to punish all of his moves. Then i loved it when someone would play scorpion cause I beat at least 9out of 10 scorpions i played. Was i beating him cause I was playing a better character? Nope!!! I beat him cause I knew how to punish all of his shenanigans. My main got nerfed because people were crying nerf on almost every character in the game. Most the people i know or have talked to about it, even ones that don't play shang agree that he didn't deserve the Nerf. But see that's what happens when people would rather have a character changed than just labbing it up.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

One thing I learned while being a Rag'doll against @Dreamcatcher is...


Don't Jump...
Thank You. For this awesome guide @LawAbidingCitizen!

 

[GLoRToR]

Ok, well what's funny is I don't have a problem with Liu Kang at all. And what's even funnier is that what people who about is his f43 mind game. The reason my little brother started this thread is because everyone always cries Nerf when they have trouble with something instead of just labbing it up. So instead of watching another character getting nerfed he just gave you guys the tools to understand how to beat Liu Kang. Nothing he has is broke. It's all punishable on reaction and the rest is punishable on read. Nobody even talks about the only tool he has that's even partially almost broken and that's his 12 cause it's plus on hit and you can jail into it. This game is sooooo watered down compared to older titles. Almost boring at times cause the characters are one dimensional. Do you know why the characters came (prenerfed)? Cause everyone in the community cried about it in the last two games. So now we have less combinability, less character mobility, less mind games, less damaging combos, less pressure, ECT, the list could probably go on for an hour. And here we are again. Ven though this game is pre-watered down and gutted.... Still people are whining about things to be toned down even more. God forbid nrs comes out with another game. Cause when they do i hope that they don't listen to everyone and make it the most boring fighting game to date. I guess they could just make mk1 all over, but then again i have this sneaking suspicion that there would be people crying about how broke a three hit juggle would be. I don't even play Liu Kang really at all. But I love it when people play Liu Kang cause I almost always win. Same with scorpion. Everyone pre patch were freaking out about his teleport saying how broken he was and when I got beat by a few scorpions i went into the lab and learned how to punish all of his moves. Then i loved it when someone would play scorpion cause I beat at least 9out of 10 scorpions i played. Was i beating him cause I was playing a better character? Nope!!! I beat him cause I knew how to punish all of his shenanigans. My main got nerfed because people were crying nerf on almost every character in the game. Most the people i know or have talked to about it, even ones that don't play shang agree that he didn't deserve the Nerf. But see that's what happens when people would rather have a character changed than just labbing it up.

Characters get nerfed if something they have is too strong. It's how games work. You could complain about Ryu being too strong or Shao being too strong but they won't get nerfed because they are not.
Liu's F4, as I explained about 15 times on tym already, is a literal omnipotent button that just beats everything and you can just walk up to people with this character and press that button and he'll win in most cases, or trade favourably.

 

[PreNerf_]

Characters get nerfed if something they have is too strong. It's how games work. You could complain about Ryu being too strong or Shao being too strong but they won't get nerfed because they are not.
Liu's F4, as I explained about 15 times on tym already, is a literal omnipotent button that just beats everything and you can just walk up to people with this character and press that button and he'll win in most cases, or trade favourably.

Ok lol.

 

[lordlosh]

All options after F43 if he cancels it are punishable On block including:
F43xxFireball
F43xxLow Fireball
F43xx Amp-Fireball
F43xxAmpLowFireball
F43xxFlyKick
F43xxBicycleKick
F43xxParry
F43xxShoalinStancexxanything
ECT
How about you name an option after F43 that is safe other than F4 and F43?

F4,3,U3 is +4 on block
You can punish on recovery if you know what is coming.
F4,3 ShaolinStance and 3(low kick) is also safe. So you are wrong on this one.
And you realize the problem is the option he have, cause they are limitless.

He can go D1, D3, D4, low fireball, amp low, high fireball, amp high, Parry, Shaolin Stance and so on. He can stop the string after F4, and how plenty of option to do.
And the gap/window to punish some of the option is incredible slim, so you need to be ready.
Thats why most pro get hit by the option after F4. I give you a clip with SonicFox and Rewind, where Rewind won a online set against SonicFox, his first in MK11.

Check how many times SonicFox get hit by the famous F4....

You can watch the whole set here:
From 08:20 to 43:30

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

And btw he would have been beyond broken if all of his option after F4,3 was safe and unpunishable.
F43 its 3 hit string, that is safe.

It would be insanely insolent to even talk about move after F43 to be safe, yet he still have them.

Sub Zero string that are safe on string are also 3 hit, like most characters?
Its like wanting any string on Sub Zero Ice Ball and string after that to be all safe.
You see how dumb that sound?
But what options i have after Sub Zero string ? Either to finish the string, for example B3,2,1 or B3,2 Ice Ball, and that is full punishable with a big window for punish that.
Now you understand how OP his options are?


This string just give him a BIG + to what he already have, but because he have it all, he is that dumb, his easy KB that set the whole set for him, as well as his FB, that is best or one of the best. In terms of dmg scaling its the best one.
He have free round thanks to his FB, and in the first round he will probably set his KB, and if by any chance you won the second round, there is like 500% chance that all of his OP KB are to go in the third, and its all over for you.
Just like what Magician said:

Why the fk is Liu a f*ing character. Everytime im playing KL, a Liu just comes to mess it up. Liu is broken especially with how much damage he does and when you get close to killing him you are the one who dies. Seriously either nerf him as much as Erron or just remove him.

I was talking about this one, its obvious from a plane that the block is late as f*.

In this video specifically after Liu Kang did his combo he is blocking extremely late.
Im talking about that video:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163958203744305153
Its the second combo, its start at 0:05 seconds:
I dont understand what you are trying to show there.

And no this character is not balanced. And no you cant compare it to anyone, cause he have it all. Jacqui is 950hp, and doesnt have a single zoning tools, while this character have the best zoning for mixed character and a anti-zoning tool that completely disable your zoning against him, safe strings all over the place, best pressure, wakeup attack against him not working, you going to eat big damage because of his parry, stealing turn after turn and etc.

 

[Hellbringer]

Lordlosh the problem with you is that u should listen to ppl more when they try to correct you like lawabidingcitizen is doing here for example, instead of blindly following everything you read on twitter or whatever a pro says on social media. I dont wanna say this in a bad way, but i know you lack some really basic understanding of fightinggame fundamentals, nothing wrong with that but dont be so stubborn and only take what pros says for truth without even understanding why they say it.
We all here to learn and we all make mistakes, but you never get better if you dont learn from your mistakes.

 

[lordlosh]

The obvious thing is you have problem with me, cause everytime i post about anything i put arguments to my opinion. And you dont know if im good, bad, or have bad fundamentals or anything about me, when you dont know me, dont see how i play and how i think, get it ?
What really will help you and make you understand the game in the right way and to move yourself into high level, its not just playing set after set(that too), lab a lot, but watch and see how Pro players play the game and try to understand why they do this and that.
And no i do not take every word pro say as a truth or prove for something. I do it when i see the same thing.
I maybe not the best player on the planet, but i know the game, watch of plenty or reps and i understand the game.
I was the first here to say the truth about Liu Kang, that more and more people start realizing.

And long ago i get the point of lawabidingcitizen, but if you read my whole post you will understand what my point of view is.
He is repeating the same thing , and not trying to understand the view of the other people that complain.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

F4,3,U3 is +4 on block
You can punish on recovery if you know what is coming.
F4,3 ShaolinStance and 3(low kick) is also safe. So you are wrong on this one.
And you realize the problem is the option he have, cause they are limitless.

He can go D1, D3, D4, low fireball, amp low, high fireball, amp high, Parry, Shaolin Stance and so on. He can stop the string after F4, and how plenty of option to do.

None of those are safe!

• F43U3 has a 10 frame gap that is punishable. And you can't punish it on recovery.
• F43xxShaolinStance low kick(3) is not safe it was nerfed last patch and now has a gap in it.
• High Fireball And Amped high fireball is punishable by ducking the highs after F43.
• Amped Low Fireball and Low Fireball are punishable on block, the meterless version is punishable on block and the Amped is punishable by ducking the high fireball.
• Parry is punishable by waiting until its on recovery.
• Shoalin Stance anything is punishable: the cancel is -20 the overhead is more than -13 and the low has a gap making it punishable.

Pokes can't be done after F43 since he is -7 on both F4 and F43 making them full combo punishable.

you really need to go into practice and test all of this.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The obvious thing is you have problem with me, cause everytime i post about anything i put arguments to my opinion. And you dont know if im good, bad, or have bad fundamentals or anything about me, when you dont know me, dont see how i play and how i think, get it ?
What really will help you and make you understand the game in the right way and to move yourself into high level, its not just playing set after set(that too), lab a lot, but watch and see how Pro players play the game and try to understand why they do this and that.
And no i do not take every word pro say as a truth or prove for something. I do it when i see the same thing.
I maybe not the best player on the planet, but i know the game, watch of plenty or reps and i understand the game.
I was the first here to say the truth about Liu Kang, that more and more people start realizing.

And long ago i get the point of lawabidingcitizen, but if you read my whole post you will understand what my point of view is.
He is repeating the same thing , and not trying to understand the view of the other people that complain.

You really are not understanding. All of his options after F4 is punishable. Many characters have safe strings and have everything going for them except one big weakness.

Liu Kang weakness is he has no range and for most of what he does you can punish him on reads. His F4, B1, 1, 2 have short range and he is easily wiff punished by walking back and wave dashing you just have to space properly. His only string that has good range is B34 and it starts up at 16f so its mainly only usuable in certain situations.
Jacqui is a good example because she has everything but a projectile and plenty of tools to get in like B22 which is safe and her dash punch is not reactable. She has massive range on her F3 and F1 and is -2 off everything. Her weakness is she can get zoned out but honestly she can get in. She is safe off every button but her special moves are punishable just like Liu Kang so if she cancels into any special you can make the read and get full combo punish.

You want to trick both of them to press buttons at the wrong time.

Lius:
B34 has a gap that you can FB
12 is highs that you can duck and full combo punish or D2 KB.
Like I've explained before in post and on video proving you can punish his F43xx options on reaction.
Most of all you can play footsies and space yourself outside if his range where your buttons reach but his don't cussing him to wiff and you to convert off it and the only thing he can do is Flykick which is punishable and throw fireballs which you can counter at that range.
If you are having problems with Liu Kang, use characters with long range buttons like Scarlet, Johnny, D'Vorah, Cassie.
Remember this is coming from a day 1 Kotal main where every character felt op to him.

 

[Hellbringer]

The obvious thing is you have problem with me, cause everytime i post about anything i put arguments to my opinion. And you dont know if im good, bad, or have bad fundamentals or anything about me, when you dont know me, dont see how i play and how i think, get it ?

I don't even need to see see you playing, i only saw one thing of you, putting up a video where u try to punish liu kang after f43 amp lowfireball but you where way too slow to hit it once then you go around saying its unpunishable just cause you have lack of mechanics. I did not need to see that to know what your skil level is. Just reading your posts is enough. But you cant take critisisme, the only thing u try to back your arguments up with is a twitter from sonicfox or some random tournament video that didnt proof shit. And yeah im gonna call you out on spreading false bullshit. I tried to be nice with my last post btw.

Im also not claiming that liu kang is bad with replying to your posts, imo hes really good but nowhere near broken as you say. Being top 5 in this game means less then being top 5 in for example mkx, this game is pretty balanced, and everyone can win but some characters are obviously better then others. Thats the way fightinggames always have been.

 

[lordlosh]

Hellbringer, firstable i never saiod his F43 amp lowfireball isn`t punishable. And secondable i put a video with Sub Zero and shows that his 1,2 string whiff everytime and you cant punish Liu Kang with that. Didnt i asked you to show me how you punish Liu Kang with his 1,2 ? You disappear big time.
Troll ?
From the so call thread, video from me:

VID_20190821_002937 - Streamable

Check out this video on Streamable using your phone, tablet or desktop.

streamable.com

And sorry to not take your opinion serious. I see most of your post, and they looks like trolling.
You cant sleep without quoting me.

And as much as you dont like of course SonicFox, Tweedy, Scar, Magician, Kombat have that character at number 1. Skindaer made a pool about who number 1 OP char is online with almost 2k votes, Liu Kang is leading the race big time with 40%, the second one is with 20% less. Thats tell the whole story.
So stop downplaying him. Not going to work.

LawAbidingCitizen, yeah i mean F43 low fireball amplified is on recovery, but this is implied. I know F43U3 has 10f gaps we was talking about that in the other thread about that move.
As far for Shaolin Stance low kick after F4 or F43. Firstable you dont know where it will come. After F4 or F4,3. This is the first problem. Second one is he have 543437473747 more option, with very slim window to be punished. So unless your psychic you will have hard time.
My videos of top players struggle with F4,3mix prove this.

And no he doesnt short range on his attack. Both F4 and his 1,2 have higher range than Sub Zero B3 and 1,2. And they are faster. He also have bigger range on his throw compare to Sub Zero. You can whiff on everything if you can start up 5 meter away from your opponent.


As far as 1,2 this is a frame trap move. Good luck with crouching trying for D2, if he decide to go for anything else you will eat full punish. You can only read on this, but risk to get full punish as well for that. This is hard read. The move is 9f you cant react to it. Same as his F4.
This mean you will whiff you are not choosing the right distance to do it and the mistake is in you.
How much range you woul want 9f mid to have? Half screen ?

P.P. Just checked his Shaolin Stance Low Kick. The best you could do is D1 with Sub. I tried with front punch, but you will eat it 9 out of 10 time.
You need 6 frame to punish that move constantly.
Good luck with that not knowing what really will come at you.
You missed my whole point. I never said Liu is op because of this move, but with all of his tools, and its combination of all, Its obviously you dont want understand my or other people opinion on him and trying to downplay him.

I have Lab and other people have Lab as well. Yeah it maybe because we are bad, but still a lot of Pros also have problem with that character and some of his tools. Should you go tell Scar or Magician to Lab him more?

The result of him lately and the usage online shows how OP this char is.
This is last from me on this topic.

Good luck.

 

[KIllaByte]

The original post definitely provides the right mindset for defending against F4, but it doesn't negate F4 pressure at all, because it doesn't include every possible option that Liu has to make F4 stagger pressure work. I don't blame the OP for that, to write out every possible option would take a lot of time, it would be a huge dissertation.

In this short video, I discuss and demonstrate how the hit-confirmability of a single F4, without the F43 string, enables Liu Kang to add more options to his stagger pressure, raising the likelihood of the opponent's failure to properly react or read Liu Kang. It's the truth.

Attempting to list the amount of potential options sounds hilarious, but here is my dissertation.

1. F4 F4,
2. F4, D1
3. F4. 1,2
4. F4 parry,
5. F4, fatal blow
6. F43,
7. F43 parry,
8. F4 low fireball,
9. F4 low fireball amplify,
10. F4 high fireball amplify,
11. F43 low fireball,
12. F43 low fireball amplify,
13. F43 high fireball amplify,
14. F4 stance cancel low, (-8 on block, low profiles highs if they try to hit the gap with stand 1)
15. F43 stance cancel low,
16. F4 stance cancel amplify,
17. F4 (1st hit cancel) stance cancel amplify)
18. F4 stance cancel nunchuk (smaller gap)
19. F43 stance cancel nunchuk (again for the smaller gap)
20. F43U3.

Not all of these options are the most rewarding option for Liu Kang, but knowing that F4 is hitconfirmable, Liu can guarantee the most rewarding option on hit, and a litany of different potentially punishable cancel options on block, or no cancel, which is still safe, at minus 7. Only Raijin Raiden can punish that.

Not a single one of these cancel options are truly safe, but if you can use them all, people just can't be prepared for all of them. Of all of the options I've typed, the least reliable is probably high fireball amplify, which can always be ducked if you're crouch blocking after the second fireball. That said, the different timing of the fireball coming out can mess with people and get them hit, and the move does a lot of damage on hit.

 

[Kindred]

When someone bitches about all the options he has, it tells me 2 things:

1. They are probably very passive and get blown up because of it
2. They overthink what another human being is going to do.

If I was in your shoes @lordlosh, Id be scared shitless thinking, he might cancel into grab, or into low, or into another F4, etc.
The truth is that despite having all these options, your very human opponent will adapt to what you do. Liu Kang players arent machines that cycle randomly through all the options we have. We start with 1, such as the pressure of F4, F43. If this always works, we dont need to use any other options. When you start poking, they start adding a low fireball. When you get hit by those and stop poking and instead block and punish, then the LK player will opt for a different appropriate response.

Having that mindset of "omg he can do 100000 things" is how you lose games, it's how LK gets in your head and makes you feel helpless. You forget theres an actual person behind the character who is just adapting to what you are doing.
Go into fights in that mindset and you inevitably improve. Go in thinking it's a lost cause and you'll come write a thesis on a forum.

 

[lordlosh]

KIllaByte
This is exactly what im talking about, his options.
Tell me a character with a string, that is safe and have so many options after that.

Sub Zero for example. B3,2 and than i can only go for IceBall(big window for punish) or finish with 1, that is safe, and my turn is over.
And some of the mixed Liu Kang option have too little window for punish, so unless you have cat reflexes and knows exactly what move he is going to use you will miss your punish.
Still the OP will come and say they are all reactable and to Lab more.

Kindred, but this is just 1 string you get that man ? He have many more. When Liu Kang player is good he will mixup, he will zone, he will mix his string, and wont use only his F4.

And i speak generally. and why Liu Kang is so strong at Low, Mid, High and most importantly at Top/Pro level. The tools and option one character have make the different at the highest possible level.

P.P. Check the KillaByte video and see what im telling you from the very begining for his Shaolin Stance Low kick. As i said things are very different in reality, not only on paper.

 

[KIllaByte]

When someone bitches about all the options he has, it tells me 2 things:

1. They are probably very passive and get blown up because of it
2. They overthink what another human being is going to do.

If I was in your shoes @lordlosh, Id be scared shitless thinking, he might cancel into grab, or into low, or into another F4, etc.
The truth is that despite having all these options, your very human opponent will adapt to what you do. Liu Kang players arent machines that cycle randomly through all the options we have. We start with 1, such as the pressure of F4, F43. If this always works, we dont need to use any other options. When you start poking, they start adding a low fireball. When you get hit by those and stop poking and instead block and punish, then the LK player will opt for a different appropriate response.

Having that mindset of "omg he can do 100000 things" is how you lose games, it's how LK gets in your head and makes you feel helpless. You forget theres an actual person behind the character who is just adapting to what you are doing.
Go into fights in that mindset and you inevitably improve. Go in thinking it's a lost cause and you'll come write a thesis on a forum.

Nobody is guaranteed to follow such a linear order of events and decision making. Not every successful interrupt yields an instantaneous response for that kind of action, If you played this way, you would be far too easy to read. On the assumption that everyone answers with a counter for the previous action, your next move will be predicted every single time,

If you watch Ninjakilla, you'll find he reverse conditions the opponent pretty often, by starting with cancel options in order to pave the way for staggers into 12, into real frametraps. But that's not guaranteed to be his decision making either, and that's the point, is to be unreadable.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

LawAbidingCitizen, yeah i mean F43 low fireball amplified is on recovery, but this is implied. I know F43U3 has 10f gaps we was talking about that in the other thread about that move.
As far for Shaolin Stance low kick after F4 or F43. Firstable you dont know where it will come. After F4 or F4,3. This is the first problem. Second one is he have 543437473747 more option, with very slim window to be punished. So unless your psychic you will have hard time.
My videos of top players struggle with F4,3mix prove this.

And no he doesnt short range on his attack. Both F4 and his 1,2 have higher range than Sub Zero B3 and 1,2. And they are faster. He also have bigger range on his throw compare to Sub Zero. You can whiff on everything if you can start up 5 meter away from your opponent.


As far as 1,2 this is a frame trap move. Good luck with crouching trying for D2, if he decide to go for anything else you will eat full punish. You can only read on this, but risk to get full punish as well for that. This is hard read. The move is 9f you cant react to it. Same as his F4.
This mean you will whiff you are not choosing the right distance to do it and the mistake is in you.
How much range you woul want 9f mid to have? Half screen ?

Im gonna make this short. I'm not gonna explain things over and over for you. The amount of issues with this post is astounding. It would take me a year to explain everything to you and I don't have the patience.
This game is about making reads and spacing properly. Liu Kang has very short range and is easily wiff punished but if you want to think everything he has is Godlike by all means go for it. Almost everything he can cancel into is punishable and there are plenty counters to him including outspacing him. Every character has number if hit mix where they can force you to guess.
He is top tier just not broke.
I'm going to end the discussion here because I believe no matter what is shown to you you simply can't or won't understand it. You have this belief that LK has been OP since day one and it is clear because you don't know how to play the matchup.
You have been shown Sub can punish the moves then you state the move you want to use can't. You talk about liu kangaroo massive range in F4 but ignore Sub has double his range with B1 and has some if the best tools to punish Liu that other characters do not.
You talk about liu having so many options from number io hit mix but fail to see 80% of the cast have the same.

Maybe one day you will accept the evidence provided to you instead of only accepting what supports your beliefs and rejecting what doesn't. You will never learn by doing that.

 

[lordlosh]

Maybe you will understand the nerf that he most likely will get in the next patch.
B1 is 14 frame, and it`s a high, one of the many Sub Zero Low-profiled issue he have. People simply crouch and full punish you.
B3,2 is the Sub Zero main move, yet he is 13frame, and has less range. And like only option you have is Ice Ball and get your * punished or finish with 1.
Where is the mixup potential that F4 have?
This is something unsees one move to have 4832472742642646 option.
Im accepting evidence i see in Pro replays. Pro opinions i agree with it as well.
I think the thread is very useful, good job for making it, but we stretch it too far.
I get your point i hope you get mine. We just dont agree on it.

 

[Kindred]

Nobody is guaranteed to follow such a linear order of events and decision making. Not every successful interrupt yields an instantaneous response for that kind of action, If you played this way, you would be far too easy to read. On the assumption that everyone answers with a counter for the previous action, your next move will be predicted every single time,

If you watch Ninjakilla, you'll find he reverse conditions the opponent pretty often, by starting with cancel options in order to pave the way for staggers into 12, into real frametraps. But that's not guaranteed to be his decision making either, and that's the point, is to be unreadable.

I dont think you got the point of my post. Let me rephrase it.
Obviously Im simplifying it but all the options do not have equal chances of being done. If the opponent is constantly respecting my frames, the chances of me doing a F43~Parry are drastically lower than F43~Grab.

The goal is to be unreadable but we are all humans who all fall into patterns. Ninjakilla isnt an alien, he has his patterns too but what seperates good players from pros is that pros will adapt faster

 

[NickDaGreek1983]

Are we STILL on this ?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The original post definitely provides the right mindset for defending against F4, but it doesn't negate F4 pressure at all, because it doesn't include every possible option that Liu has to make F4 stagger pressure work. I don't blame the OP for that, to write out every possible option would take a lot of time, it would be a huge dissertation.

In this short video, I discuss and demonstrate how the hit-confirmability of a single F4, without the F43 string, enables Liu Kang to add more options to his stagger pressure, raising the likelihood of the opponent's failure to properly react or read Liu Kang. It's the truth.

Attempting to list the amount of potential options sounds hilarious, but here is my dissertation.

1. F4 F4,
2. F4, D1
3. F4. 1,2
4. F4 parry,
5. F4, fatal blow
6. F43,
7. F43 parry,
8. F4 low fireball,
9. F4 low fireball amplify,
10. F4 high fireball amplify,
11. F43 low fireball,
12. F43 low fireball amplify,
13. F43 high fireball amplify,
14. F4 stance cancel low, (-8 on block, low profiles highs if they try to hit the gap with stand 1)
15. F43 stance cancel low,
16. F4 stance cancel amplify,
17. F4 (1st hit cancel) stance cancel amplify)
18. F4 stance cancel nunchuk (smaller gap)
19. F43 stance cancel nunchuk (again for the smaller gap)
20. F43U3.

Not all of these options are the most rewarding option for Liu Kang, but knowing that F4 is hitconfirmable, Liu can guarantee the most rewarding option on hit, and a litany of different potentially punishable cancel options on block, or no cancel, which is still safe, at minus 7. Only Raijin Raiden can punish that.

Not a single one of these cancel options are truly safe, but if you can use them all, people just can't be prepared for all of them. Of all of the options I've typed, the least reliable is probably high fireball amplify, which can always be ducked if you're crouch blocking after the second fireball. That said, the different timing of the fireball coming out can mess with people and get them hit, and the move does a lot of damage on hit.

Ohh I explained this above, I agree he has plenty of options. Yes a very good Liu Kang players can make you guess. This thread was made specifically to battle online Liu Kang who play Autopilot F43xx all day.
I mentioned those 4 options because they are used a lot. After the patch with F3 having a gap between that and Shaolin Stance into 3 its basically not hit confirmable and safe anymore so we will likely not see F3 used as much.
But if my opponent uses F4 into throw/F43xxAmpedLFB/F43xxParry all of those options are reactable. They can use F4 stagger or none amped Low fireball but its pretty unsafe but us a different timing. My point is all if his options ate punishable and you can make the read And choose to punish the options that are reactable that I've listed at the low cost of chip. I can react to throws so they are not that big of a deal for me. I feel this approach is in my favor More so than poking between F43U3.
Every character has plenty of options to create guess, this isn't unique to LK at all.
I made the thread because many are complaining about Lius auto winning with only F4 which is absurd. In this thread they claimed his F4 us broke and everything he does is safe its ridiculous.

 

[Kindred]

Kindred, but this is just 1 string you get that man ? He have many more. When Liu Kang player is good he will mixup, he will zone, he will mix his string, and wont use only his F4.

For sure but every string has a pattern. One that I see MANY LK players do is F4, F43 but also B1, B123, also 12, F43

The way you have to visualize the match (no matter the MU) is like a series of scenarios. When he does F4, then the F4-followed-by-something scenario activates and you have to recall what they did last time you were in that situation. Then you make an informed decision on whether to poke or jump or etc. If he hits you with B1, then based on the last time this scenario came up, he followed it with another B1 then a grab so you will be better informed on how to react.

Is this full proof? no. This is the basis of reads in a fighting game. Sometimes, if I know he is expecting another F4, I'll go for a grab. That just means that I read what he was going to do. That has nothing to do with the character, my opponent just got outplayed. This is just how fighting games work. You make informed decision that have the highest chance of working. Sometimes, they do and sometimes they dont.

I use the same thinking when facing scorpion who staggers with F3. Last time they staggered me with it, they went for another F3 and then a grab so I know what I have to do. Jacqui hits me with F3, what did she follow that with last time.

With LK, the scenarios I keep tract of to know how to respond are whenever I see a F4, a B1 or a 12. I keep track of what they did last time these moves came out and when. If I notice that whenever I get out of the corner, he does F4 then grabs me to send me back in the corner, I can be pretty confident hes going to do that until I find a good response.

Again, you have that "Omg he has sooo many things" mindset. It's like your brain overblows how good he can be with how good your opponent actually is.

 

[KIllaByte]

I dont think you got the point of my post. Let me rephrase it.
Obviously Im simplifying it but all the options do not have equal chances of being done. If the opponent is constantly respecting my frames, the chances of me doing a F43~Parry are drastically lower than F43~Grab.

The goal is to be unreadable but we are all humans who all fall into patterns. Ninjakilla isnt an alien, he has his patterns too but what seperates good players from pros is that pros will adapt faster

I 100% agree with the rephrasing. Thank you.