Trying to mb roll through deadshot's zoning (video)

[wsj515]

We aren't calling for nerfs to Black Adam, Captain Cold, Batman, etc..

My point is that we shouldn't be calling for nerf for anyone, but we also shouldn't outright say a character is fine. Its effectively the same thing.

 

[SaltShaker]

My point is that we shouldn't be calling for nerf for anyone, but we also shouldn't outright say a character is fine. Its effectively the same thing.

Off subject, but I just realized you have a Black Adam avatar lol. So, does he need nerfs or is he fine? Given your comments about Deadshot, I must know your thoughts on what is the stance.

 

[wsj515]

I haven't played the Cheetah MU with anyone noteworthy but I can check some things out for you and get back to you tomorrow with at least something. I have heard though that she is one of his most dominant MUs so that might be a rough one. I'll see what I can find. and tag you.



Explain to me what an "easy win scrub character" is at anything competitive level? Can I hop on King's stream and body him free because I'm using the character? Can you? I don't think it works that way but I'm open to hear an explanation.

Was just quoting your own words, maybe I was being too cute. My point is you are having such an adverse reaction because you don't want your character to change. Is this fair? I don't know, which is why I keep saying we shouldn't be calling for nerfs. But it also isn't fair for you to say he is completely fine. After all, it's only Day 4

Edit:

Off subject, but I just realized you have a Black Adam avatar lol. So, does he need nerfs or is he fine? Given your comments about Deadshot, I must know your thoughts on what is the stance.

Just like how you think of Deadshot, I think Adam is really strong with some glaring weaknesses. However, I'm not going to make the assumption that my perceived weaknesses of the character make him balanced or fair. He's really good, and fun to play.

 

[Shaka]

I appreciate the respect and I'll take the advice to heart.

But I just have to laugh as I point out you said Zod and MMH made it so that some characters couldn't play the game, but then you said "like INJ1" we have to learn those matchups if we want the diversity.

I guess that means that mains with bad matchups against Zod, MMH, and now Deadshot, are going to have to pick a different character, huh? I actually hope that isn't the case.

But you're right. It's been four days and I haven't had a weekend with the game yet. You can trust I'll keep it cool and quiet, until I know my options. Thank you for your help.

Counter picking is part of any fighting game, no issues here.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Well, do you think it's just a coincidence I play catwoman? The way deadshot is right now, no one with any common sense would not pick some sort of counter to him.

Supermans f23? Just space and punish? And have I defended 50/50's???

Edit: I wanna see that 20 minute block string tho.

batman has a 20 minblock string? how?

 

[Azarashi Elder]

Counter picking is part of any fighting game, no issues here.

Well I have a couple things: Yes counter picking is a part of fighting games, but game developers decide on how big of a role that plays. In Tekken, its balanced enough so that the worst character still has a fighting chance against arguably the best character. In Smash Wii U, at least for a time, there was Double S-Tier Meta Knight and everybody else.

If, and I repeat. IF any character wins 24 MUs, loses 3 and goes even with two, the character is too good, imo. Obviously I'm talking hypothetical here, but a character like that messes with character diversity, which is also a key in fighting games and ultimately, what keeps more people playing longer. Without character diversity, you get Tanyas Aliens, Meta Knights, Kokonoe, and Superman getting booed off the stage.

Those characters get hated because they invalidate too many other characters. The game gets stale to watch and play, because it's basically a game reduced to 4-5 viable characters, or less! Counter Picking doesn't hide the fact that a game is broken and unbalanced.

You can counter pick Infinite block stun Kabal, but that doesn't make him OK.

 

[Azarashi Elder]

Whoops, I meant Smash Wii. My bad.

 

[Shaka]

Well I have a couple things: Yes counter picking is a part of fighting games, but game developers decide on how big of a role that plays. In Tekken, its balanced enough so that the worst character still has a fighting chance against arguably the best character. In Smash Wii U, at least for a time, there was Double S-Tier Meta Knight and everybody else.

If, and I repeat. IF any character wins 24 MUs, loses 3 and goes even with two, the character is too good, imo. Obviously I'm talking hypothetical here, but a character like that messes with character diversity, which is also a key in fighting games and ultimately, what keeps more people playing longer. Without character diversity, you get Tanyas Aliens, Meta Knights, Kokonoe, and Superman getting booed off the stage.

Those characters get hated because they invalidate too many other characters. The game gets stale to watch and play, because it's basically a game reduced to 4-5 viable characters, or less! Counter Picking doesn't hide the fact that a game is broken and unbalanced.

You can counter pick Infinite block stun Kabal, but that doesn't make him OK.

I see and understand your point, but the game just barely came out, let's just keep playing for a few months then decide which what is balance and what is not.

I mained Quan chi and Shinnok in MKX, I like zoning but I can also play offensive. I could be using Deadshot he looks amazing but won't because of all this crying, it gets annoying. Instead I'm using Black Adam, Scarecrow and Batman... so you understand if they nerf projectile zoning it will make it easier for my mains but still not in favor of nerfing anything this early.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

@SaltShaker Any advice for a Swamp Thing player in the Deadshot matchup?

 

[chr1sam]

Did some more testing...

 

[Tweedy]

You don't want to dash or roll in deadshot's face. He'll recover faster than you and he'll get to mix you up and send you back fullscreen. Just walk/dash/jump until you're 75% of the way in or so, then walk or jump.

 

[dribirut]

Off subject, but I just realized you have a Black Adam avatar lol. So, does he need nerfs or is he fine? Given your comments about Deadshot, I must know your thoughts on what is the stance.

Tbf blackadam needs damage reduction asap

 

[chr1sam]

You don't want to dash or roll in deadshot's face. He'll recover faster than you and he'll get to mix you up and send you back fullscreen. Just walk/dash/jump until you're 75% of the way in or so, then walk or jump.

Doesn't it seem silly though...that a mechanic meant to counter zoning...is not good against a zoning character?

But yeah, you are defiantly right. As it is now. Its better to slowly approach.

I'm honestly interested if people will eventually adjust to deadshot as he is in the current game so I hope NRS doesn't patch anything for at least a month or two.

 

[buyacushun]

If Deadshot zoning took the effort/risk of Dhalsim/Guile/Zato etc

I just want to shine the light on the savior of 2D fighting games, GG Rev2 which will have all the zoning, rushdown, offense, defense, and counter play everyone wants. With loads of content. May 26th. About 3 weeks before the 3D savior Tekken 7 releases June 6th.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

LOL, downplaying is in full effect in this thread.

Deadshot does seem to get an awful lot for free. Hard to really say what weaknesses he has. Yes, the game is early and we all have to learn the MUs, but we should also be free to use our eyes and brain and see something for what it is.

 

[Heartwire]

You don't want to dash or roll in deadshot's face. He'll recover faster than you and he'll get to mix you up and send you back fullscreen. Just walk/dash/jump until you're 75% of the way in or so, then walk or jump.

You can't jump or dash that's the issue with his straight shot, the recovery is VERY fast, and jumping over a projectile gets you hit by the one followed up by that, dashing same thing it's not an option.

All you can do is inch in step by step, and then you can still get pushed halfway back while blocking when he suddenly does a MB rifle, not to mention his 50/50 and his wakeup.


I get why people are saying it's too early to do this or that to a character, but even though IJ2 is a new game, experience people have from other games should be taken in to consideration, there are people that have an eye for these things whether they are right or wrong.
And a lot of these people have dealt with zoners in previous games. But from my experience I never had such a hard time getting close to a zoner as I have had with Deadshot.
In IJ1 there was Deathstroke, and a lot of people complained, though I personally and a lot of other experienced fighting game players could get around his zoning and close in. with Deadshot however it doesn't seem viable unless you have a teleport,and even then he still is a danger closeup.


I know people will disagree with me, but to each their own, as long as we can discuss this maturely I'm willing to listen to both sides of the story.

 

[SaltShaker]

All you can do is inch in step by step, and then you can still get pushed halfway back while blocking when he suddenly does a MB rifle

Low rifle has a 27f start up, a crouching animation on his only crouch special, and a pause before the MB comes it. If you're playing with Fate, why don't you crouch under while walking, and when he goes to shoot MB Rifle react with a fireball. That was being done to me so I stopped using it a lot against him. You do that weird stun in the trade and he waste a bar for nothing.

 

[Jay Rupp]

You're a straight dude, so I'm gonna give you a legit response but probably won't respond to the rest of the thread.

MB Roll is not the answer to get in on Wrist Cannon, you will always be hit between the two straight shots. i knew that day -3, and that's not the time you use it. You have to walk. You have different options after block ricochet, rifle, and ducked/blocked 4 shot wrist, and walk straight shots. Once you have mastered all your options, you make the right reads you get in, you make the wrong reads you get hit, as it should be. Once you are in, most rush characters have advantage, and if you KD, you can either body or read WU and blow it up fairly easy without using meter. If you think he'll B1, abuse the 2 gaps in the string or just block and pressure/punish. If you think he'll F2, block and pressure with advantage or punish if no MB. If he does a string free pressure. He only gets 1 turn up close, and if it's wrong you can get 2 or even 3 depending on the character used. I would go into greater detail but this isn't the Deadshot discussion thread and a few people who are fighting rather than complaining know a lot of this stuff already.

I think the biggest issue is taking many players from MKX, who are used to playing rock em sock em robots, so when you have characters who take patience and reads defensively to get around they cannot handle it. Even the guy above is like "there is no run button". Personally, I stopped playing MKX months after release because it was 95% offense and it just wasn't for me, but some others like that. Once Deadshot gets nerfed they will move on to Fate, regardless of how strong rushdown characters are like Cold and Canary. There was not this much outrage against characters like Zod and MMH for example, who were better than Deadshot, and had completely oppressive zoning in some MUs where you LITERALLY couldn't play the game. Yea people complained, and had their memes, but it was nothing close to this, and if anything Batgirl and even Bane got more complaints. Most of that community came from MK9 though and then brought new players, who were already used to diverse playstyles so it wasn't a big deal like the MKX community who have no idea what to do. If a character like Captain Cold is allowed to exist where I'm watching the game instead of playing it when he gets in, then a character like Deadshot or Dr. Fate should be allowed to exist as well.

Which is why I point to MKX. If you want linear offense where you get in and throw attacks nonstop it's there. If you want diversity, then like Inj1 you had to learn the Zod/MMH/Sinestro MU just like you had to learn the Batgirl/Flash/Bane MU. It's been 4 days. Peace.

My friend who never plays fighting games can zone well. Why? It's lolbraindead. It's definitely effective, but also brain-dead. That's why so many newcomers flock to characters like Deadshot and Deathstroke (RIP).

You can't dash in between wrist cannon shots. Just gotta inch and shuffle.

I just spent a whole match dashing in between shots. Maybe some characters can't though.

 

[FL Rushdown]

while I do think we should let it rock, I do find it pretty suspect that at full screen you can't jump a projectile on reaction because he recovers fast enough to shoot again and hit you on the way down, just from a design standpoint that seems really weird. I could understand him having time to use an AA to counter but it's a little silly that he can just shoot again. That being said let it go for a bit, if it's really busted we'll know soon enough.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

I love zoning, zoning is one of the most essential and most important ways of how to play a fighting game since the first incarnation of SF2. Its one of the reason why NRS decided to go back to a 2d plane, there was no zoning prior to MK9 and its one of the reasons why the 3d era lacked in the depth department. But there was one problem that plenty pros had an issue with the ways how some projectiles work in NRS games. Since NRS loves to be creative, they tend to make all sorts of ways how to throw a projectile which is fine, people always disliked the fact that projectiles don't trade AT ALL, I get around it, so do others and its essentialy fine, but in my time of playing fighting games, I have never seen so much hate for the Bullet type of projectile, its apsolutely hilarious seeing pros lose their shit. They will continue hating it as long as it exists in NRS games, so characters like Deadshot,Deathstroke and the like will naturally just get hated regardless of how good/bad they are. Its why ChrisG said that Deadshot is stupid, even though he is a zoner at heart.

 

[Jay Rupp]

If Deadshot zoning took the effort/risk of Dhalsim/Guile/Zato etc, no one would complain. Those characters take actual thought to not fuck up and lose.

Right now, it's just too easy to be effective with him, his risk factor is minimal and near effortless vs the risk/effort to get in on him, and the counters are limited to a few characters that I'm sure everyone isn't interested in playing. People also always forget the max size of the stages in injustice. They are very large to favour zoning.

At least the game is still fun, but the denial of Deadshot's ease of use is real.

That's the way I see it. Right now someone who doesn't know anything about fighting games can pickup Deadshot, only learn his Specials and hold their own. He's stupid easy to use and requires almost no knowledge. There's a reason all the new players are flocking to him.. and it's not because he's hard to master.

 

[Truesolo]

After blocking the first shot of mb rifle, is it possible to use mb roll as a reversal and be right in his face?

 

[Azarashi Elder]

I have never seen so much hate for the Bullet type of projectile, its apsolutely hilarious seeing pros lose their shit. They will continue hating it as long as it exists in NRS games, so characters like Deadshot,Deathstroke and the like will naturally just get hated regardless of how good/bad they are. Its why ChrisG said that Deadshot is stupid, even though he is a zoner at heart.

My problem with fans of Deadshot are comments like these.

"hate" "so much hate for the Bullet type of projectile"

Why you hating on my boy? Meanwhile, all they play is Deadshot and they love pissing people off.

Lookit, the problem isn't the bullets, the problem is, he recovers really fast after shooting them. If a zoner recovers too quickly then the stage becomes a bullet obstacle course, and the zoner doesn't have to think anymore.

Now, at some level that's happening. I'm willing to admit it's possible that better players are getting around it, but instead of dismissing critique of Deadshot, with "why you hating?", why not A) Listen to a pro gamer with a better understanding of game balance than you, or B) come up with a better defense, or ways to justify the fact that I have to duck every 1.5 seconds.

 

[SaltShaker]

My problem with fans of Deadshot are comments like these.

"hate" "so much hate for the Bullet type of projectile"

Why you hating on my boy? Meanwhile, all they play is Deadshot and they love pissing people off.

Lookit, the problem isn't the bullets, the problem is, he recovers really fast after shooting them. If a zoner recovers too quickly then the stage becomes a bullet obstacle course, and the zoner doesn't have to think anymore.

Now, at some level that's happening. I'm willing to admit it's possible that better players are getting around it, but instead of dismissing critique of Deadshot, with "why you hating?", why not A) Listen to a pro gamer with a better understanding of game balance than you, or B) come up with a better defense, or ways to justify the fact that I have to duck every 1.5 seconds.

Did you watch Pig's stream last night? RHS?? Imagine if you could dash between each bullet shot. Cheetah, Catwoman, and Canary would 10-0 Deadshot.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

EDIT:

More testing...

My conclusions:

MB roll is terrible against his straight shot. Not only is it hard to get through it but even if you do you don't get a punish and at some ranges he even recovers before you. Meaning you spent a meter to let him pressure you.

MB roll is USELESS against his MB rifle. If you don't get hit at the start you'll either get hit at the end or even if you can block at the end of the roll you still get pushed back out of range.

MB roll is decent against his trick shot. Its still can be hard to time it but if you do he recovers fairly slow so you can defiantly punish(the vid doesn't show this clearly but you defiantly can punish the recovery on this if you make it through).

your conclusions fricken suck. you have no idea how to test or when to actually use it. where is your test against beetle's projectile? why are you guys not crying about Harley