Tom's Incident Has Made it to Esports Mainstream News

[CrimsonShadow]

Did you seriously just compare soccer, the most popular and lucrative sport in the world, to playing video games competitively? Typical professional soccer players make millions of dollars. Even the worst professional soccer players make millions in the world's most prominent leagues. Typical fighting game players, on the other hand, are broke and live in their parents' basement, which was my lifestyle when I played Mortal Kombat 9 six hours a day.

I have been a member of the NRS community for almost two decades and I can count the people who made a living playing the games competitively on one hand, and I am including people like 16 Bit who managed to get a job in the video gaming industry.

That was actually his point, though. I’m sure you can also count your acquaintances who make a living playing professional sports on one hand.

Making a career the NFL, for example, is like a million to one shot. It’s rare and 99% of people who pick up a football will never see that contract.

Just like everybody who plays football should probably learn something else or have a side job lined up, most people won’t reach the level where their combination of sponsorship and winnings earn them a lifestyle and pay their bills. But for the few who do it’s a viable profession.

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

Did you seriously just compare soccer, the most popular and lucrative sport in the world, to playing video games competitively? Typical professional soccer players make millions of dollars. Even the worst professional soccer players make millions in the world's most prominent leagues. Typical fighting game players, on the other hand, are broke and live in their parents' basement, which was my lifestyle when I played Mortal Kombat 9 six hours a day.

I have been a member of the NRS community for almost two decades and I can count the people who made a living playing the games competitively on one hand, and I am including people like 16 Bit who managed to get a job in the video gaming industry.

Fighting games are certainly an example, but if you take into account some of the salaries professional League of Legends players got in their contracts for the 2020 season, shit is truly getting pretty absurd.
And being an eSport player is just as much about branding and making money with streaming/merch as it is about playing the game. It's still a young business but things are evolving pretty fast.

 

[HeavyNorse]

Did you seriously just compare soccer, the most popular and lucrative sport in the world, to playing video games competitively? Typical professional soccer players make millions of dollars. Even the worst professional soccer players make millions in the world's most prominent leagues. Typical fighting game players, on the other hand, are broke and live in their parents' basement, which was my lifestyle when I played Mortal Kombat 9 six hours a day.

I have been a member of the NRS community for almost two decades and I can count the people who made a living playing the games competitively on one hand, and I am including people like 16 Bit who managed to get a job in the video gaming industry.

You're taking the example a bit too literally than intended, and getting a bit too worked up about it.

 

[portent]

That was actually his point, though. I’m sure you can also count your acquaintances who make a living playing professional sports on one hand.

Making a career the NFL, for example, is like a million to one shot. It’s rare and 99% of people who pick up a football will never see that contract.

Just like everybody who plays football should probably learn something else or have a side job lined up, most people won’t reach the level where their combination of sponsorship and winnings earn them a lifestyle and pay their bills. But for the few who do it’s a viable profession.

This is actually more along the lines of what I meant when I said it wasn't a career. More like it's not a very smart career path.

Very few gamers ever have more than a 5-7 year run. There are a few generational players like Daigo, Justin Wong and maybe you can put Valle in that group as well. The truth is, not many, go beyond the 5 year mark. How many years is Sonic Fox at it? Maybe age 14? So what amount of time does Sonic have invested, 5-7yrs now? Look what's happening now, suddenly, NinjaKilla is the next big thing and Sonic may be on the way out. The longevity just isn't there, and there are so many outside IRL factors that play upon that.

-When you're under 18 (at least in the USA), you're a kid with virtually no need for much money, and what money you do have, by all accounts is usually disposable income. This creates a wonderful atmosphere spend your time playing games, training, and prepping for the next big tournament you're hoping to win.

-As we age, our reflexes naturally diminish. Combine that with less time to focus on gaming as we get older due to external factors like longer hours working (for non-disposable income), studying (to get that job for non-disposable income), or even just social activity, suddenly, that sharp edge begins to dull a little bit.


The truth is, there is no sense in professional gaming as a conscious career path, same goes for professional athletics. If you HAPPEN to be talented and you chase it as plan C while working on plans A and B, then good. If not, then learn to be happy living in Mom and Dad's basement all while donating to the pot for the winners of each major you attend.

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

This is actually more along the lines of what I meant when I said it wasn't a career. More like it's not a very smart career path.

Very few gamers ever have more than a 5-7 year run. There are a few generational players like Daigo, Justin Wong and maybe you can put Valle in that group as well. The truth is, not many, go beyond the 5 year mark. How many years is Sonic Fox at it? Maybe age 14? So what amount of time does Sonic have invested, 5-7yrs now? Look what's happening now, suddenly, NinjaKilla is the next big thing and Sonic may be on the way out. The longevity just isn't there, and there are so many outside IRL factors that play upon that.

-When you're under 18 (at least in the USA), you're a kid with virtually no need for much money, and what money you do have, by all accounts is usually disposable income. This creates a wonderful atmosphere spend your time playing games, training, and prepping for the next big tournament you're hoping to win.

-As we age, our reflexes naturally diminish. Combine that with less time to focus on gaming as we get older due to external factors like longer hours working (for non-disposable income), studying (to get that job for non-disposable income), or even just social activity, suddenly, that sharp edge begins to dull a little bit.


The truth is, there is no sense in professional gaming as a conscious career path, same goes for professional athletics. If you HAPPEN to be talented and you chase it while working on plans B and C, then good. If not, then learn to be happy living in Mom and Dad's basement all while donating to the pot for the winners of each major you attend.

Many pro eSports players transition from playing competitively to branding/streaming/whatever. Working on this industry doesn't necessarily involve going pro. In fact, many streamers for many games are arguably good enough to go pro but know they'll make more money by streaming and building their fanbase.
In fact, transitioning from competitive play to branding (or even coaching) happens on traditional sports as well.
It's not a career for everyone, but more and more people make a living out of that nowadays. You don't have to be young and have adderal-like reflexes to make a living out of games, you can do it by being smart and charismatic as well.
Times are changing and I absolutely guarantee you this scene will only get bigger. Again, it's not for everyone, but as more games get relevant there's more room for pro players/coaches/streamers/personalities.
EDIT: I do agree though that the smart thing to do is having a plan B. Most content creators I watch have some form of higher education or had a stable job before streaming or creating videos full time. That's just the way of the entertainment industry, even aspiring actors have day jobs.

 

[portent]

Many pro eSports players transition from playing competitively to branding/streaming/whatever. Working on this industry doesn't necessarily involve going pro. In fact, many streamers for many games are arguably good enough to go pro but know they'll make more money by streaming and building their fanbase.
In fact, transitioning from competitive play to branding (or even coaching) happens on traditional sports as well.
It's not a career for everyone, but more and more people make a living out of that nowadays. You don't have to be young and have adderal-like reflexes to make a living out of games, you can do it by being smart and charismatic as well.
Times are changing and I absolutely guarantee you this scene will only get bigger. Again, it's not for everyone, but as more games get relevant there's more room for pro players/coaches/streamers/personalities.

I agree. What you said actually further supports what I was saying. Being a professional gamer is not a smart career path. The likelihood of it happening is so small, that you're better off with it being "plan C".

I don't want you to think I'm mincing words, which is why I'm being careful about what I'm saying here. I said that being a professional gamer is not a smart career path. I DID NOT say that working toward a career in the gaming industry, (which, to a slight degree can include being a player) is not smart. It very much is a smart career choice.

Being an online personality doing reviews, satire, tutorials, etc. CAN earn you a living. That isn't what I said though. Just wanted to be clear about that.

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

I agree. What you said actually further supports what I was saying. Being a professional gamer is not a smart career path. The likelihood of it happening is so small, that you're better off with it being "plan C".

I don't want you to think I'm mincing words, which is why I'm being careful about what I'm saying here. I said that being a professional gamer is not a smart career path. I DID NOT say that working toward a career in the gaming industry, (which, to a slight degree can include being a player) is not smart. It very much is a smart career choice.

Being an online personality doing reviews, satire, tutorials, etc. CAN earn you a living. That isn't what I said though. Just wanted to be clear about that.

Yeah I totally agree with you. I watch a ton of professional League of Legends and a lot of players who don't make it big or don't make a name for themselves in the scene end up just fading away, and this is probably the biggest eSports game atm. Those who are smarter manage to use their time in the spotlight to build a brand and gain fans, and a few others move to coaching. I can imagine that's why we see fewer new names in the NRS community. Other games have more safety nets and can gain you more immediate money (being tied to a team etc), being an FGC player with no sponsors must be scary af. The scene would probably mature a lot if players had an easier way to enter it or more stability.

 

[chores]

never change TYM... never change.

 

[trufenix]

Wow, what brought that on?

So I said that gaming isn't a career. You disagreed with me. I left it alone. Suddenly you attack me?

Bad day I assume. Hopefully you have a better rest of the day man.

It's the worst when people make statements as facts based on circumstancial or biased data, isn't it?

 

[M2Dave]

That was actually his point, though. I’m sure you can also count your acquaintances who make a living playing professional sports on one hand.

I can count none because no acquaintances of mine are adequately delusional to perceive themselves in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and Premier League. Besides, the vast majority of athletes go to college anyway, which is the "plan B", while I am familiar with many professional fighting game players who drop out of college to play full time. Did Sonic Fox not drop out of college during Mortal Kombat X?

You're taking the example a bit too literally than intended, and getting a bit too worked up about it.

I am "getting worked up about it" because I teach teenagers for a living and encourage them to pursue appropriate and sustainable career decisions while you are ignorantly romanticizing competitive fighting games with nonsensical analogies and setting up many young people for failure. Everyone ought to go to college or some type of vocational school in order to be make a living in the long term.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Question. Lord Brady always talked about how legendary he used to be at fighting games, he once said he was "sonic fox before sonic fox was sonic fox." What games was he sonic fox at? I only started watching him in Injustice 1.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I can count none because no acquaintances of mine are adequately delusional to perceive themselves in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and Premier League. Besides, the vast majority of athletes go to college anyway, which is the "plan B", while I am familiar with many professional fighting game players who drop out of college to play full time. Did Sonic Fox not drop out of college during Mortal Kombat X?



I am "getting worked up about it" because I teach teenagers for a living and encourage them to pursue appropriate and sustainable career decisions while you are ignorantly romanticizing competitive fighting games with nonsensical analogies and setting up many young people for failure. Everyone ought to go to college or some type of vocational school in order to be make a living in the long term.

A lot of athletes go to college, but many of them don't finish, because when all you've ever done is sports, it can be pretty hard to adjust to an academic lifestyle. Many of them go on scholarships that are based solely on athletic performance, and once they're off the team, they can't pull their weight.

I think you're vastly overstating the extent of financial and life planning for people who intend to be pro athletes. There's a reason that our top pro sports leagues have a 60-70% bankruptcy rate (no exaggeration, look it up -- it's crazy). Many of them have to actually hit the wall and be picked back up again to realize that they need to make life changes.

The differences aren't as vast as you're making them out to be.

Yes, pro sports leagues pay a lot more, but there are also 1) Way more people trying to get into them, and 2) It requires a MUCH bigger investment, both financially and in terms of time, to even have a chance.

You can go from nothing to making Top 8s and being in consideration for sponsorship in fighting games within a couple years. We've all seen numerous examples. Obviously it doesn't guarantee you'll reach the professional level, but to even be considered in a pro sport you're competing against people who have literally had to dedicate their entire lives, from young ages, to the sport. I have friends who've been in that pipeline, and literally everything they did since elementary school, and everything their parents did for them, was about baseball, football, basketball, working out, being coached, leagues, camps, time with personal trainers, etc..

Fighting games carry a much lower risk. But while I understand where you're coming from, I think the mindsets are not as far apart as you might think they are.

 

[portent]

It's the worst when people make statements as facts based on circumstancial or biased data, isn't it?

Apparently you didn’t have a better day. I’m sorry to hear that.

I honestly pity you for feeling so bad about whatever is bothering you so much that you have to resort to picking fights with strangers on a forum.

If you need to talk, I have an open inbox. If you need to yell at me, I’m ok, I can handle it, I just don’t want to hear about someone doing something horrible to themselves because something is so off and had nobody to talk to.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Apparently you didn’t have a better day. I’m sorry to hear that.

I honestly pity you for feeling so bad about whatever is bothering you so much that you have to resort to picking fights with strangers on a forum.

If you need to talk, I have an open inbox. If you need to yell at me, I’m ok, I can handle it, I just don’t want to hear about someone doing something horrible to themselves because something is so off and had nobody to talk to.

Lmao “a better day?”

Felix is ALWAYS like this.

 

[M2Dave]

A lot of athletes go to college, but many of them don't finish, because when all you've ever done is sports, it can be pretty hard to adjust to an academic lifestyle. Many of them go on scholarships that are based solely on athletic performance, and once they're off the team, they can't pull their weight.

I think you're vastly overstating the extent of financial and life planning for people who intend to be pro athletes. There's a reason that our top pro sports leagues have a 60-70% bankruptcy rate (no exaggeration, look it up -- it's crazy). Many of them have to actually hit the wall and be picked back up again to realize that they need to make life changes.

The differences aren't as vast as you're making them out to be.

Yes, pro sports leagues pay a lot more, but there are also 1) Way more people trying to get into them, and 2) It requires a MUCH bigger investment, both financially and in terms of time, to even have a chance.

You can go from nothing to making Top 8s and being in consideration for sponsorship in fighting games within a couple years. We've all seen numerous examples. Obviously it doesn't guarantee you'll reach the professional level, but to even be considered in a pro sport you're competing against people who have literally had to dedicate their entire lives, from young ages, to the sport. I have friends who've been in that pipeline, and literally everything they did since elementary school, and everything their parents did for them, was about baseball, football, basketball, working out, being coached, leagues, camps, time with personal trainers, etc..

Fighting games carry a much lower risk. But while I understand where you're coming from, I think the mindsets are not as far apart as you might think they are.

Being sponsored in fighting games is inconsequential in the long term. See Echo Fox, what used to be the most prominent sponsor in the fighting game community just a couple of months ago. When a professional athlete signs a contract with Nike, he or she will make millions of dollars and have financial stability for the future as Nike is highly unlikely to disband or run out of business. The fighting game business model for the competitive player is unstable and in its infancy. You made the same claims just a couple of weeks ago.

I have lots more to say about this topic, but you and I can agree to disagree about the nuances because this topic is not about us. I am honestly uninterested in the similarities and differences between professional sports and competitive fighting gaming. I am, however, interested in guiding adolescences into rewarding and secure careers. If you want what is best for the average competitive fighting game player, and I genuinely believe you do, you ought to support me and stop romanticizing this issue. The majority of players will otherwise end up like the professional athletes whom you accurately described at the very beginning of your post.

Broke. In their mid 30s. No ability to adjust to the working or academic lifestyle.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Being sponsored in fighting games is inconsequential in the long term. See Echo Fox, what used to be the most prominent sponsor in the fighting game community just a couple of months ago. When a professional athlete signs a contract with Nike, he or she will make millions of dollars and have financial stability for the future as Nike is highly unlikely to disband or run out of business. The fighting game business model for the competitive player is unstable and in its infancy. You made the same claims just a couple of weeks ago.

I have lots more to say about this topic, but you and I can agree to disagree about the nuances because this topic is not about us. I am honestly uninterested in the similarities and differences between professional sports and competitive fighting gaming. I am, however, interested in guiding adolescences into rewarding and secure careers. If you want what is best for the average competitive fighting game player, and I genuinely believe you do, you ought to support me and stop romanticizing this issue. The majority of players will otherwise end up like the professional athletes whom you accurately described at the very beginning of your post.

Broke. In their mid 30s. No ability to adjust to the working or academic lifestyle.

A few points on this:

1) If a professional esports player’s career doesn’t matter because they don’t make millions, then 99% of other jobs don’t matter either.

2) Not every sports sponsorship is Nike. There are plenty of other sponsorships that have come and go over the years. But with brands like Coca Cola becoming involved with brands like Overwatch League, etc., it’s only a matter of time until big name brands are backing esports players as well.

3) How many pro athletes have a Nike shoe deal? It’s the vast minority. But plenty of athletes have smaller sponsors and do fine. When one deal ends, they find another, just like Sonic will after Echo Fox.

4) Sponsorships like Nike were built over years incrementally. Someone like Lebron is able to earn millions today because of all the people who paved the way for him. Sonic Fox has been able to earn a living playing games because of people who came before him and made less. And Sonic will pave the way for some kid in the next generation to make a lot more than he makes (as has happened in several other esports). We should be lauding these people, as they’re helping to build the future.

5) Plenty of people in this country will end up broke in their 30s for reasons other than “I played fighting games for a living”. And just like the gamers, most of them will just find another job and ultimately be fine. I think it’s a little presumptuous to say that having to reboot one’s work environment basically makes them useless to society. It’s not like Valle or LI Joe is living out the street in a cardboard box. People move on.

 

[SinkFla]

Can't call it deflategate so how about uhh... QuicklyBuyAdobeSoICanPhotoshopANonexistentDateGate?

 

[Son ov Timett]

These sponsorships arent down the pipe, stop kidding yourselves. Take a peak at any Major, half the seats in the back drop are empty and you'll be lucky to have betwixt 15-20k in viewership. If a brand like Coca-Cola is offering money to sponsor, they're going to want their brand exposure in exchange. Gilmore Girl re-runs on CW have more eyes and fanfare than the FGC. Nice pipe dream, but kids go pick up a trade and make some stable sustainable green.

A man can not live on joystick alone.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Question. Lord Brady always talked about how legendary he used to be at fighting games, he once said he was "sonic fox before sonic fox was sonic fox." What games was he sonic fox at? I only started watching him in Injustice 1.

He was never a "SonicFox". Mostly of the time he wouldn't even place at big MK9 tournaments. It got so bad it became a meme at one point.

Tom Brady - Bill Menoutis - Fighting Game Player Results & Earnings By Game :: Esports Earnings

Tournament results for fighting game player Bill "Tom Brady" Menoutis.

www.esportsearnings.com

 

[Jynks]

M2Dave is a teacher?!!!

 

[Jynks]

M2Dave does have a point though

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

These sponsorships arent down the pipe, stop kidding yourselves. Take a peak at any Major, half the seats in the back drop are empty and you'll be lucky to have betwixt 15-20k in viewership. If a brand like Coca-Cola is offering money to sponsor, they're going to want their brand exposure in exchange. Gilmore Girl re-runs on CW have more eyes and fanfare than the FGC. Nice pipe dream, but kids go pick up a trade and make some stable sustainable green.

A man can not live on joystick alone.

FGC is like the poorest cousin of the eSports community but ok

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but didn't pig or someone do the math a few years ago and said that on average forever king made like $11 per hour when he was winning tournaments in mkx?

Even though it is literally just playing video games, it would take a shit ton of effort to actually make money in a fighting game, much more effort than $11 per hour is worth. I haven't worked an $11 per hour job since I was 16 and that was not mentally or physically taxing whatsoever. And that's forever king. A very very good player who was making that, while also living with several other men who also play the game all day.

I agree with crimson though that adjusting in your 30s is certainly possible and that people can and will move on. Everyone knows someone who did.

 

[M2Dave]

5) Plenty of people in this country will end up broke in their 30s for reasons other than “I played fighting games for a living”. And just like the gamers, most of them will just find another job and ultimately be fine. I think it’s a little presumptuous to say that having to reboot one’s work environment basically makes them useless to society. It’s not like Valle or LI Joe is living out the street in a cardboard box. People move on.

People in this country end up broke because of unexpected medical expenses. While I sympathize with sick people because insurance companies are corrupt, I cannot sympathize with anyone who plays fighting games six hours a day and expects to make a long-term profit. In an already small faction of the gaming community, an even smaller number will be adequately fortunate to make a living playing fighting games competitively. The percentages are overwhelmingly against you so you are better off investing those six hours that you spend playing fighting games into going to college, learning a trade, getting a certificate, etc.

As I have said before, if your answer to the question "What are your skills?" is "I have mostly been playing video games", you will be laughed out of the job interview unless you are applying to work for a video game company. You can name Joe and Valle. I have a plethora of examples, even in the state in which I reside, that support my argument, but I choose not to discuss people's private lives and financial matters.

Playing fighting games competitively and making a living would be a dream come true for lots of men. No waking up at seven in the morning. No commuting to your job and dealing with traffic. No boss breathing down your neck. The situation would certainly be ideal but is nothing more than a fantasy. As a "community engineer", you ought to educate people about this subject, not give them a warped sense of reality.

 

[M2Dave]

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but didn't pig or someone do the math a few years ago and said that on average forever king made like $11 per hour when he was winning tournaments in mkx?

Correct. He, among others, also dropped out of college at that time to pursue a "career" in playing fighting games competitively.

And people wonder why 30+ year old gamers like me stopped traveling and playing fighting games competitively. Albeit I am far from the golden standard, we stopped not because we are too old to react to throws and overheads. We are simply not foolish to work for $11 an hour. I personally make very good money doing what I like and I have three months of vacation, at which time I can enjoy playing fighting games competitively and casually.