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Discussion Tiers and Their Effect on Game Balance

TyCarter35

Bonafide Jax scrub
They probably did to some extent. at least now it's not like there are characters that are truly game breaking. I felt like NRS at least don't hv any characters who breaks the general rules of the game now. they did alright regarding Universal changes.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Blast from the past. Think NRS read this thread? Or was our discussion ignored?
Dosent matter. Look at the change log, what you think ? They could but I dont think it had big influence on decision they made while snoring cocke and calling the shots.

BTW,
Can you reduce the size of your signature, I just woke up and realized the size hurt my eyes - thank CF.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Dosent matter. Look at the change log, what you think ? They could but I dont think it had big influence on decision they made while snoring cocke and calling the shots.

BTW,
Can you reduce the size of your signature, I just woke up and realized the size hurt my eyes - thank CF.
Problem has been noted and dealt with regarding the signature.
 

Snake Sound 222

Tonight, Tarkata feasts
I think Alien kept his range because of how unsafe he is. I think he has very few safe moves. The ones that I remember now are most of his jump attacks. I will try to find the rest when I get home.

EDIT: Here is all of Alien's safe moves:
Universal: 1, F1, JFP, JBP, JFK
Acidic: Exo Splash (df2EX)
Tarkatan: 2
Konjurer has none.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
I disagree when you say that a character is automatically broken when they have a tool that makes you play against them in a 100% different way than other characters.

Examples:

GM sub zero with his ice clone and Hawkgirl with her flight. I would absolutely agree that characters with polarizing tools like these are certainly what I would consider "meta breakers" in that they force you to play against them or approach them in a different way than you would against other characters. I do not think that automatically makes these characters "broken" though.

I know there is a group of people who think GM sub in the current patch is broken but until I see results to back up this claim I will still just view him as a high tier (not broken) character. Hawkgirl was considered a mid tier character in IGAU even with such a polarizing tool as her flight move, which certainly did force you to 100% change how you play against her when compared to other characters who had to remain grounded.

I think that "meta breakers" can be broken but a meta breaking too does not automatically lead to brokenness.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I disagree when you say that a character is automatically broken when they have a tool that makes you play against them in a 100% different way than other characters.

Examples:

GM sub zero with his ice clone and Hawkgirl with her flight. I would absolutely agree that characters with polarizing tools like these are certainly what I would consider "meta breakers" in that they force you to play against them or approach them in a different way than you would against other characters. I do not think that automatically makes these characters "broken" though.

I know there is a group of people who think GM sub in the current patch is broken but until I see results to back up this claim I will still just view him as a high tier (not broken) character. Hawkgirl was considered a mid tier character in IGAU even with such a polarizing tool as her flight move, which certainly did force you to 100% change how you play against her when compared to other characters who had to remain grounded.

I think that "meta breakers" can be broken but a meta breaking too does not automatically lead to brokenness.
i didn't mean the character is broken if they have that kind of tool. i'm saying that tool is broken. It defies the normal rules of the game and makes you play in a way that wasn't exactly intended for the majority of the cast. Bad characters can have broken tools (Hawkgirl wasn't great but Flight was broken, it made you rethink entirely how the game worked) same with the listed tools (some of those tools have been dealt with...others, not so much)
 

trufenix

bye felicia
i didn't mean the character is broken if they have that kind of tool. i'm saying that tool is broken. It defies the normal rules of the game and makes you play in a way that wasn't exactly intended for the majority of the cast. Bad characters can have broken tools (Hawkgirl wasn't great but Flight was broken, it made you rethink entirely how the game worked) same with the listed tools (some of those tools have been dealt with...others, not so much)
what tools would you classify as "broken" in MKX?
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
what tools would you classify as "broken" in MKX?
MKX does a real good job of making you uncomfortable and making you play in weird ways. Some examples include Crystaline/Sorcerer armor. Unbreakable's Armor Breaking. Demo's grenades (I can't believe they didn't change these like at all) GM's Ice Klone. Bo's EX Fart. I could make a whole list if enough people want it tbh.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
MKX does a real good job of making you uncomfortable and making you play in weird ways. Some examples include Crystaline/Sorcerer armor. Unbreakable's Armor Breaking. Demo's grenades (I can't believe they didn't change these like at all) GM's Ice Klone. Bo's EX Fart. I could make a whole list if enough people want it tbh.
I guess I don't see it as "weird" or "broken" having to play (against) every character a little different, but I think that's a distinctly non-mk sensibility which is why its becoming so maligned here. MK move design has been largely homogenous forever. Maybe moves do weird things on hit, but generally a hit is a hit, a block is a block, a jump arc is a jump arc, etc. So the fact that now a single character can have 3 very distinct attack patterns within the same subset of moves must seem jarring to the I should be able to jab anti air into 30% damage every single time crowd. The idea that a character might have some weird gimmick that says you don't get to punish me the same is still very foreign here.

Games like Tekken, KoF, Guilty, Blaz, even Marvel (though the old ones apply way more than the new ones) almost always have characters or even a small subset of characters that make you rethink basic principles like blocking and mobility and poking just because they exist. Tekken has had characters like this for years, so much so that they don't even bat an eye lash when it turns out this character has weird unblockable projectiles or a crazy 360 degree parry or something. Namco sometimes just does not give a fuck about the norm. It's why the FGC at large calls Smash a bullshit party game, because from match up to match up the rules of the game literally change. This character literally cannot be juggled, this one eats projectiles, this one is two characters, etc...

I think we're just dealing with the fact that this is the way NRS wants to go and a lot of us don't. People are used to perfecting one style of play, and not simply becoming adequate enough to win at several. IMHO, that's really the only way you can make a game now that we have things like youtube and streams. It took the SF community about 20 minutes to plumb the absolute depths of SF5. Their tier list hasn't changed since day 4. I don't think that's a commentary on overall quality of its design, I think that's just because its a very one size fits all game and the internet eats those for breakfast. Consequently, their players hate that characters like Mika exist that can just obliterate "fundamentals". Mika would however seem absolutely normal in MKX or Guilty Gear.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Think any character that basically doesnt have to adjust their gameplan at all and has next to no bad matchups is guna be broke.

(Tanya and alien)

Smoke and GM getting that way, nowhere near as bad as tanya or alien tho.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Think any character that basically doesnt have to adjust their gameplan at all and has next to no bad matchups is guna be broke.

(Tanya and alien)

Smoke and GM getting that way, nowhere near as bad as tanya or alien tho.
Smoke's B2 string makes you have to play differently. Same with his F2 string (that's the other mid right?) it causes you to have to try and guess CONSTANTLY. It makes his staggers dumb and his frame data paired up with that causes the character to be kind of dumb.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Smoke's B2 string makes you have to play differently. Same with his F2 string (that's the other mid right?) it causes you to have to try and guess CONSTANTLY. It makes his staggers dumb and his frame data paired up with that causes the character to be kind of dumb.
Its just a bit redic, you can more or less hitcofirm the first two hits into spear for an antiair and if they block it you're in and its a big ol' guessing game without much risk for him.

Its a cool design and i like it but its stupid when you incorperate safe mixups into a vortex

Again... Bo rai cho has issue with it since his fart is negated midscren