Discussion Tiers and Their Effect on Game Balance

[Solomon Gorondy]

The OP is right; we need to lab more before we ask for buffs and nerfs. Solomon Grundy suffered the worst preemptive nerf in Injustice; When they made his trait throw breakable. He is now forever low tier. Also the later buffs on Bane were unnecessary.
#Buff Grundy

 

[omooba]

The OP is right; we need to lab more before we ask for buffs and nerfs. Solomon Grundy suffered the worst preemptive nerf in Injustice; When they made his trait throw breakable. He is now forever low tier. Also the later buffs on Bane were unnecessary.
#Buff Grundy

Feel like people especially those who place well at tournaments will always believe they can tell how good a character is earlier than the bunch so yeah it would be nice if when a game comes out we waited a bit but not likely

 

[Tweedy]

There's technically no option that can't be covered with what he said as long as you read it

I read it.

You can always get out if he goes for the HTB. He can always pressure you, so it's a 50/50.

This has been an argument/discussion in like 40 threads on TYM. If it's still not common knowledge, whatever.

 

[Solomon Gorondy]

I read it.

You can always get out if he goes for the HTB. He can always pressure you, so it's a 50/50.

This has been an argument/discussion in like 40 threads on TYM. If it's still not common knowledge, whatever.

As a Goro main, I must say that Takeda whups the shit out of me. If it is a 50/50, it's a pretty damn good one, better than any 50/50 Goro has.

 

[hkriderz]

Lol what?

Takeda's EX kunai is a prime example of how desperately this community needs to lab more.

What? If takeda does fist flurry into Ex kunai and does a "run up" b2 overhead whip, you can't jump back.

It's essentially a four way mixup, just pressure, jump in 3, run up b2 or raw b2. Armor is very limited since ex kunai breaks it.

Oh I forgot. He can also instantly let it go if he knows you're going to jump. So free combo there. Good luck guessing all of that

Telling you all this from actual labbing it just now.

I guess if you mop takedas with gaylien then we must level up

 

[TheGangstaFace]

What? If takeda does fist flurry into Ex kunai and does a "run up" b2 overhead whip, you can't jump back.

It's essentially a four way mixup, just pressure, jump in 3, run up b2 or raw b2. Armor is very limited since ex kunai breaks it.

Oh I forgot. He can also instantly let it go if he knows you're going to jump. So free combo there. Good luck guessing all of that

Telling you all this from actual labbing it just now.

I guess if you mop takedas with gaylien then we must level up

Yeah I gotta say I've never seen anyone over simplify the options against takedas ex kunai lol "just jump". That's like saying "just armor through sonyas grenades"

 

[Bilbo11]

Just read this, thought it would fit right in here

If the character doesn't make top 8, it means it's not overpowered enough to win money.

If the character doesn't cause you to lose money by BODYING you out of a top8, then how in the FK does it need to get nerfed?

You mean everyone is just lucky everyone is blind and forgets the character is on the select screen, oh my i'm so lucky no A-list or F/T got picked, I'd rather take on this Acidic Alien or Ronin Takeda, much, much easier to fight against.

So basically you want those characters to get nerfed just for show, because somehow you think that they are better on paper, in theory, because in reality they don't cause any problems or make it impossible for people to qualify or win tournaments.

TL;DR: OBVIOUSLY IT FKN COUNTS if the character makes or not top 8 when you consider top tiers, DUH. People pick top tiers to WIN MONEY. If they can't win, they don't pick. Period.

 

[Second Saint]

The Problem is if they nerf the puddle they also nerf venomous and BM which is stupid because the last thing these two characters need is to be toned down. But this has happened before *cough* cassie

And there is just no way sq can Break armor with it with the amount of recovery. As I said venomous and bm have the armor break setups, not sq

Well...not quite true. As far as I can tell, the regular puddle has the same recovery throughout all variations. It can be a bit difficult, but you can break armor around ~15 frames or so. Maybe even 14, not sure. You have to end in 212 to setup the puddle, and you have to get that very high in the air to maximize your frame advantage.

On the plus side, you talking about this got me into the lab to check stuff, which lead to me improving the armor breaking setups for Venomous/BM even more. Using 212 instead of b12 like I originally did can allow for extra frame advantage and puts the EX puddle meaty perfectly, so you can break any armor, though some might low profile s1 but can still be broke with d1. Kind of surprised I never realized this in the first place, tbh.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Well! I'm glad people like the thread! Also glad I've caused discussion, discussion is gold

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Unstoppable Jason isn't as good as Sonya, Alien, Mileena, etc...

I'm more salty about Jason's D1 than the armor breaking. 6 frames, minus 2. Get fucked Liu Kang, Tremor, Sub-Zero, D'Vorah, or anyone with no 7 frame poke. He can mash like a scrub and beat you clean. Oh and if I have a 7 frame poke the be goddamn perfect and you are allowed to trade. If you are privelaged with a 6 frame poke then you could probably counter poke against Jason.

Make D1 like minus 5 and Jason is fine.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Unstoppable Jason isn't as good as Sonya, Alien, Mileena, etc...

I'm more salty about Jason's D1 than the armor breaking. 6 frames, minus 2. Get fucked Liu Kang, Tremor, Sub-Zero, D'Vorah, or anyone with no 7 frame poke. He can mash like a scrub and beat you clean. Oh and if I have a 7 frame poke the be goddamn perfect and you are allowed to trade. If you are privelaged with a 6 frame poke then you could probably counter poke against Jason.

Make D1 like minus 5 and Jason is fine.

I wasn't saying he was, the point of putting Jason there was to show that characters can have a broken move and not be too strong to the point of needing to be nerfed

 

[Blewdew]

That's what I'm saying

Well...not quite true. As far as I can tell, the regular puddle has the same recovery throughout all variations. It can be a bit difficult, but you can break armor around ~15 frames or so. Maybe even 14, not sure. You have to end in 212 to setup the puddle, and you have to get that very high in the air to maximize your frame advantage.

On the plus side, you talking about this got me into the lab to check stuff, which lead to me improving the armor breaking setups for Venomous/BM even more. Using 212 instead of b12 like I originally did can allow for extra frame advantage and puts the EX puddle meaty perfectly, so you can break any armor, though some might low profile s1 but can still be broke with d1. Kind of surprised I never realized this in the first place, tbh.

no. the armor break setup only works with ex puddle. you can't even break ex scimitar which is 23 startup.

yeah it's the same setup as with sq but you use ex puddle instead. I main brood mother and I use it all the time. if they don't have meter and get restand into block you're +47 so you can follow up with b3 which is +11 which garantuees 112 which you can hitconfirm into ex bug blast into 11b2,d1d1d1,212, ex puddle / low bug.
when you don't have meter you can do low bug instead of ex puddle which is unavoidable even if they delay wakeup and you can htb them.

 

[CrazyFingers]

no. the armor break setup only works with ex puddle. you can't even break ex scimitar which is 23 startup.

yeah it's the same setup as with sq but you use ex puddle instead. I main brood mother and I use it all the time. if they don't have meter and get restand into block you're +47 so you can follow up with b3 which is +11 which garantuees 112 which you can hitconfirm into ex bug blast into 11b2,d1d1d1,212, ex puddle / low bug.
when you don't have meter you can do low bug instead of ex puddle which is unavoidable even if they delay wakeup and you can htb them.

So...youre saying I should update the OP?

 

[Blewdew]

So...youre saying I should update the OP?

maybe I know puddle is cheap as fuck but at least swarm queen doesn't have access to the armor breaking ex puddle setup.

 

[CrazyFingers]

maybe I know puddle is cheap as fuck but at least swarm queen doesn't have access to the armor breaking ex puddle setup.

True, I can update it when I get the chance. Tbh, wasn't expecting this post to blow up as much as it did xD

 

[Second Saint]

no. the armor break setup only works with ex puddle. you can't even break ex scimitar which is 23 startup.

yeah it's the same setup as with sq but you use ex puddle instead. I main brood mother and I use it all the time. if they don't have meter and get restand into block you're +47 so you can follow up with b3 which is +11 which garantuees 112 which you can hitconfirm into ex bug blast into 11b2,d1d1d1,212, ex puddle / low bug.
when you don't have meter you can do low bug instead of ex puddle which is unavoidable even if they delay wakeup and you can htb them.

You realize I'm the guy who posted those ex puddle armor breaking setups, right? I know what I'm talking about, and I know what I've done. Don't dismiss what I say out of hand, please.

Try f34, d1, f34, 212~db1 in the corner, making sure to hit 212 as high as possible, then break with s1. The best I've broken is 15 frames, traded with 14. I can consistently break 17, and it works in all variations. If you use ex puddle like this, Lao's spin gets broke really easily with s1. So on slower armors, you can use slower moves like 212, f11, f44, etc and still break for ridiculous damage.

 

[AGRxShiroKuma]

Unstoppable Jason isn't as good as Sonya, Alien, Mileena, etc...

I'm more salty about Jason's D1 than the armor breaking. 6 frames, minus 2. Get fucked Liu Kang, Tremor, Sub-Zero, D'Vorah, or anyone with no 7 frame poke. He can mash like a scrub and beat you clean. Oh and if I have a 7 frame poke the be goddamn perfect and you are allowed to trade. If you are privelaged with a 6 frame poke then you could probably counter poke against Jason.

Make D1 like minus 5 and Jason is fine.

Nah man don't talk about the scrubby D1. That's my favorite move. In all seriousness if it is minus 5 I wonder how much that will effect is corner combos.

 

[Second Saint]

Nah man don't talk the scrubby D1. That's my favorite move. In all seriousness if it is minus 5 I wonder how much that will effect is corner combos.

None since people don't block mid-combo? How negative it is on block doesn't come into play.

 

[AGRxShiroKuma]

None since people don't block mid-combo? How negative it is on block doesn't come into play.

I meant like if I would still be able to do F2, shoulder charger, D1, B2, shoulder charge, D1, B12, grab n stab.

 

[Second Saint]

I meant like if I would still be able to do F2, shoulder charger, D1, B2, shoulder charge, D1, B12, grab n stab.

You would be. The proposed -5 is only on block. Since all those d1's hit, he has a different amount of recovery, which in this hypothetical scenario was not changed.

 

[AGRxShiroKuma]

You would be. The proposed -5 is only on block. Since all those d1's hit, he has a different amount of recovery, which in this hypothetical scenario was not changed.

Oh I think I get it now. So if it connects it's not effected but if it is block the recovery is minus 5?

 

[Second Saint]

Oh I think I get it now. So if it connects it's not effected but if it is block the recovery is minus 5?

That's about it, yeah. Your combos are safe.

 

[AGRxShiroKuma]

That's about it, yeah. Your combos are safe.

Alright cool. Thanks for the info.

 

[Invincible Salads]

I read it.

You can always get out if he goes for the HTB. He can always pressure you, so it's a 50/50.

This has been an argument/discussion in like 40 threads on TYM. If it's still not common knowledge, whatever.

what option does takeda have to counter a jump out attempt?

 

[Tweedy]

what option does takeda have to counter a jump out attempt?

He can just F12 2+4, which is obviously not a mix up.

Let me also note that sometimes you have to backdash and then jump out, or even double backdash, vs certain set ups.