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Discussion Tiers and Their Effect on Game Balance

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Hey guys, CrazyFingers here and today I'm here to just talk about a few specific things involving balance for fighting games and where MKXL should probably want to be after its final patch is said and done. So without further ado, the points I will be covering are these.

  • When is a Top 5/10 list a list of characters that MUST be dealt with?
  • What is the final goal for a competitive game's balance team?
  • Finally, why "preemptive nerfing" is an unhealthy practice in a patch based fighting game.
So! No more dilly dallying let's get this show on the road.

When are the Top Tier "Too" Top Tier
So whenever there is a fighting game, there is always a "Top Tier". However, the question that needs to be asked when talking about balancing the top tier is "When is this list of characters/specific character too much in one direction." and by that I mean, when is a character 'broke'. When is it at the point where a character NEEDS to be dealt with. Before we go into that, we have to ask exactly what a 'broken' character entails. A character is broken when it has a tool or tools that cause you to play the game in an almost 100% different way due to their impact on the game. There are obviously varying levels of broken but this kind of broken is when you almost feel like you're playing a different game in between rounds. For example, pre nerf Quan Chi is one of the epitomes of a broken character. The things he did were NOT ok. It caused you to be in a permanent state of having to block in ways that, quite frankly, this game was not meant to do. "Low (Tiny Pause) Overhead. Low IMMEDIATELY overhead, Overhead IMMEDIATELY low, etc etc" are not exactly what NRS was probably thinking of when they thought of what they wanted in their game. The PEAK of this was on release Tanya or as I like to call her "Block Simulator" because let's face it, the character was like playing solitaire. So there will always be the Quans and Tanyas, but what about the less extreme but still REALLY high up there. Well, that's what we have right now. The following is a short list of character that break the game in ridiculous ways, and how they do this.
  • Sonya (Demolitions)- Shock Grenades create multiple scenarios in which you basically have to throw your knowledge of fighting games out the window. Trades are non-existent, and the Sonya has complete control over the situation.
  • Alien (All Variations)- Alien throws any sense of spacing out the window with simply 3 buttons. D4, B3, F4. The fact that alien is able to hit you from near full screen with normals and little to no way of punishing it, along with that being a 50/50 on top of it, is ridiculous in its own right. But when you get into canceling into flips and 50/50's after landing a D4, you start to go to a crazy land where this is no longer a fighting game.
  • Takeda (Not Ronin)- Takeda has this little move called EX Kunai. This does almost the exact same dirt as Sonya without it being so flexible. Throwing this move out makes it so the opponent has to try and guess SO MANY THINGS that it is insane. Do they release and cash out on plus frames/chip? Do they hard to block able? Do they delay it? Who knows m8! This is MKX! Where the only thing you need to know is that THERE ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS.
  • Kano (Cutthroat)- So here's a fun game. It's the "How many times can you guess before you get tagged?" you better hope the answer is a high number because Cutthroat will mix you to the bank. Now usually this wouldn't be an issue, 50/50's are just a commonplace thing in MKX. But 50/50's into plus frames and EVEN MORE 50/50s? And if that wasn't enough, you also have to think "Will he read the armored wakeup?" because if he does, you eat 40% minimum for your troubles. AND the armor breaking setup has to versions! A low, and an overhead! Causing the setup to basically be able to be thrown out there whenever! The character causes you to constantly flip coins with little interaction with what he's doing.
  • D'vorrah (Swarm Queen)- So there is one thing and one thing only that causes this character to break the game. No it's not grenade cancels and no it is no 50/50's. It is fucking puddle. Puddle, is +22 on block. Puddle, can be used to break armor. Puddle, makes it so there is only two kinds of wakeups, and that is delayed wakeup and wakeup block, because this damn tool causes you to play hospital waiting room and guess what! You're the guy with a gunshot wound when there's three pregnant ladies and a stabbing victim in front of you because you'll be waiting a LONG time friend.
  • Jason Vorheez (Unstoppable)- Ok...so I love this character. He's one of my mains and I think he's super fun...but DD3...breaks armor. Like...talk about LITERALLY breaking the game. The character makes everyone freaking Blood God Kotal when it comes to wakeup options. Do I think he needs a nerf? Not really. Does this break the game in a huge way? Yes. Why did I put him on here? To show that you can break the game and NOT be super overpowered.
That is just a couple of characters that break the game but keep in mind the last one. Jason Vorheez. Jason is an A+ character who is VERY solid all around, and DD3 is one of the best moves in the entire game. However, he doesn't need nerfs. This is to show that just because a character has game breaking potential, it does not mean they need to be nerfed. Now, if it's not JUST breaking the game that gets you nerfed, then what else should justify a nerf? Well it's simple. The other half of a character needing a nerf is when they do something that the rest of the cast cannot one up them on. For example, you will not find a single character in MKX that will be able to compete with Alien's space control. No character in the game will have better OKI than D'vorrah and no character in the game will out trade Sonya. It will not happen. When you have a character that does something SO good that no one else can even touch them on it, that is when you have to realize that is an issue that needs to be dealt with.
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A Fighting Game Balance Team's "End Goal"

When people talk about a fighting game being "Balanced" the majority is probably thinking something along the lines of "Everyone is viable and the same power level" seems like a reasonable idea for balancing right? Well the problem is, it's not. Whenever you are talking about a competitive game of ANY kind, there will always be the strongest, the middle tier, and the weakest. The goal of balance team in a fighting game specifically isn't to make the weak as strong as the current top and the current top as weak as the current low tier. This is what people have been so kind enough to attach a phrase to, that phrase being "Tier Shifting". This is a state of being where the game becomes a boring cycle of balance patches not improving the meta of the game sometimes making it even worse (see pre MKXL in comparison to post MKXL, the results are clearly worse) And the way that this kind of design perpetuates itself is when the community CONTINUOUSLY overreacts to the things presented to them. A perfect example of overreaction on the part of the community is when people get a hold of NRS games early/when they get them day one. The community will every single time, WITHOUT FAIL, cry "Overpowered" and "Nerf this, Nerf that" upon seeing something that is even remotely strong (RIP On Release Ice Klone, you were never given the light of day). This kind of behavior obviously has perpetuated itself till this very day with MKX. Triborgs getting over normalized while Alien is kept at a VERY unstable and powerful form, because all the attention was brought to the "OP OP" of Triborg. So if constantly nerfing and buffing characters to overblown proportions isn't how we balance the game, then how is. Well, it's simple, balancing in a fighting game is about closing the gap. Now what I mean by this is that yes, every character can be played at the highest level and win. The mid tier competes with top, the top competes with low tier and vice versa. There will ALWAYS be a top 5. Never EVER in a million years will you find a fighting game that doesn't have the strongest and the weakest. This will ALWAYS be the case but the balancing team isn't there to fulfill your dreams of having a top tier monster at your disposal because you bitched about them not being good enough. They are there to normalize, to make sure that you Unbreakable Sub CAN beat the Demo Sonya. A perfect example of this sort of design is Soul Calibur 2. This is one of if not the most balanced fighting game ever made, I will fight till my last dying breath about this. The tiers were all there, with Spawn being the only really "trash" (god I hate that term in FG's) character in the game, the rest of it was 100% VIABILITY. If you can eventually beat that Demo with Unbreakable, we made it boys...and girls I guess.
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What is "Preemptive Nerfing" and Why is it Unhealthy for the Game
So, usually around incoming patch time you will see countless threads crying for nerfs and buffs. But one thing that I'm sure we have seen is "Nerf this guy 'just in case' he's op after the current top tier are gone". I will preface this by informing you of my AGGRESSIVE hatred of this mentality of thinking. Why do I hate this mentality? I am so glad you asked, I love a good rant. The reason this line of thinking is Unhealthy is simple. We have no way of TRULY knowing the outcome of them at their current state being in a game where the original oppressive top tier does not exist. This creates things like Cyber Sub Zero in his current state. NRS didn't give it more than a month before they nerfed the ever loving shit out of him and now, a lot of people call him bottom 5 in the game and for good reason. This was most definitely a form of Preemptive nerfing. Another perfect example of this is Leatherface, in fact, this is possibly the BIGGEST example of it. Upon release Leatherface had a few notable things in his arsenal. In Killer, he obtained unarmorable unblockable setups that were either backdash or eat it. This was strong, but by no means something that needed to be nerfed, and yet NRS was SO FUCKING SCARED of this possibly making everyone mad that they took it away in the blink of an eye. The other thing they snatched from him were both in Butcher, his now worst variation. He had a true vortex by ending combos in S22, which forced the opponent to guess and he ALSO had the fastest command grab in the game in the form of his 6f DBF 1. However, they took away BOTH of these. And these nerfs weren't based off of any concrete data, it was all "Just in case they're op" nerfs. This form of thinking can ALSO be applied to buffs, which is fucking terrifying and has created things like Piercing Mileena and Takeda. Characters who people constantly called trash, low tier etc that got more buffs than some characters get nerfs and buffs combined. This form of thinking causes for flimsy design that just makes the entirety of your game a balancing nightmare.

WELL THERE IT IS FOLKS!
Hope you all learned a thing or two or at least have some stuff think about. Feel free to discuss what I went over in the comments, would love to hear what the community has to say about this topic!
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
If dvorahs puddle is the only problem why aren't venomous and brood mother even near the top 10? It also doesn't armor break in swarm queen only the Other two have Access to the good ex Version of it.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
If dvorahs puddle is the only problem why aren't venomous and brood mother even near the top 10? It also doesn't armor break in swarm queen only the Other two have Access to the good ex Version of it.
It's not the ONLY problem. It is just the thing that she does that breaks the game. When I point out a character's absurd tool it's not the only strong tool they have, it's just the one that makes you change what you're doing in such a drastic way. Also, I've seen Swarm Queen puddle break armor before but I suppose that depends on the speed of the armored move.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
"Nerf Cyber Sub-Zero just in case".

A truly balanced game doesn't need always to be about the characters, the general mechanics are the things that needs to work 100% of the time, NRS keeps failing at this constantly because they have characters with tools that bends what they establish as general rules, either a character can't use the rules when it should, or the top character just doesn't care about said rules.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
"Nerf Cyber Sub-Zero just in case".

A truly balanced game doesn't need always to be about the characters, the general mechanics are the things that needs to work 100% of the time, NRS keeps failing at this constantly because they have characters with tools that bends what they establish as general rules, either a character can't use the rules when it should, or the top character just doesn't care about said rules.
Another thing that's true that I wish I included. The bullshit of just throw this character's tools off of them because we think it's too good but then IMMEDIATELY give those tools in an exact or better fashion to another character
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
It's not the ONLY problem. It is just the thing that she does that breaks the game. When I point out a character's absurd tool it's not the only strong tool they have, it's just the one that makes you change what you're doing in such a drastic way. Also, I've seen Swarm Queen puddle break armor before but I suppose that depends on the speed of the armored move.
The Problem is if they nerf the puddle they also nerf venomous and BM which is stupid because the last thing these two characters need is to be toned down. But this has happened before *cough* cassie

And there is just no way sq can Break armor with it with the amount of recovery. As I said venomous and bm have the armor break setups, not sq
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Another thing that's true that I wish I included. The bullshit of just throw this character's tools off of them because we think it's too good but then IMMEDIATELY give those tools in an exact or better fashion to another character
One of the reason a lot of people think this games wears off so fast is because there isn't much improvement in general gameplay, just characters doing better things inside the same game.

As results, characters that used to do the same gets weaker while some that were weaker get empowered, there isn't exactly a neutral ground because the real issue its not being looked at, just empowering and weakening characters on a year life cycle.

No wonder we keep nerfing and buffing characters, the general gameplay which is affected by the meta is what it should be looked at, only then how characters plays around the system.
Takeda is allowed to mash NJPs on the way up, if a character doesn't have an advancing string that is fast and combo-able on certain ranges same character can't even punish it. Just an example.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
One of the reason a lot of people think this games wears off so fast is because there isn't much improvement in general gameplay, just characters doing better things inside the same game.

As results, characters that used to do the same gets weaker while some that were weaker get empowered, there isn't exactly a neutral ground because the real issue its not being looked at, just empowering and weakening characters on a year life cycle.

No wonder we keep nerfing and buffing characters, the general gameplay which is affected by the meta is what it should be looked at, only then how characters plays around the system.
Takeda is allowed to mash NJPs on the way up, if a character doesn't have an advancing string that is fast and combo-able on certain ranges same character can't even punish it. Just an example.
Let's hope NRS pulled out all the stops on this last patch and makes it count or else this game is just going to be same meta different faces
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Let's hope NRS pulled out all the stops on this last patch and makes it count or else this game is just going to be same meta different faces
I don't get surprised anymore.
last year a way to break armor was by having double hitting strings or moves, then they gave Goro and Kitana a 2 hit armor move, Jason a untilimited armor move.

And to make it worse, now we have specific normals that can and will disable armors in the game, including X-Rays, which was something only X-Rays could do, now its a mechanic for 1 character if not mistaken, soon to be more maybe.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I think it's all
I don't get surprised anymore.
last year a way to break armor was by having double hitting strings or moves, then they gave Goro and Kitana a 2 hit armor move, Jason a untilimited armor move.

And to make it worse, now we have specific normals that can and will disable armors in the game, including X-Rays, which was something only X-Rays could do, now its a mechanic for 1 character if not mistaken, soon to be more maybe.
I think it's all just NRS letting all the overwhelming amount of feedback get to them. I'm sure they're trying their best but at the end of the day, there are things in MKX that can and will NEVER be fixed :(
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Ronin's also top tier
Well yea but I was pointing out the characters and their game breaking moves, wasn't really a tier list it was just showing off the moves that change how you need to play the game in the most drastic way, and Ronin doesn't have EX kunai
 

Tweedy

Noob
EX kunai is essentially a 50/50 for a bar.

Ronin is always plus without having to spend meter, and has a really dumb mid range and pressure game with B11.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
EX kunai is essentially a 50/50 for a bar.

Ronin is always plus without having to spend meter, and has a really dumb mid range and pressure game with B11.
It's a bit more than that man. HTB's, Kunai delays, plus frames into more plus frames. The Takeda player gets to choose what you have to do next or you get blown up by it. Boiling it down to a 50/50 for one bar underselling it a ton
 

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
EX kunai is essentially a 50/50 for a bar.

Ronin is always plus without having to spend meter, and has a really dumb mid range and pressure game with B11.
EX Kunai is not just a "50 50". You have only one option. Mash and move your ass out of there unless you want to try your luck on a one frame HTB into 36, or maybe eat some plus 32.

Anyways, this game sadly is broken on a fundamental level. Launching mixups that are safe, plus, or even unsafe it doesn't matter, half/ full screen mixups with no hurtbox completely oblliterating neutral, NJPS and NJKs with stupid range that can be made plus, double hitting armor moves, Plus gapless jailing pressure, safe armored launchers...

List goes on. This is the core of the game, its what its based on. And this upcoming patch is not fixing any of that. Unless this patch is like 15 Gigs and redoes the games meta from scratch, I'm afraid this game will remain an infestation of the list above.

New patch is going to nerf the top 5 to the ground so people will start complaining, the low tiers will get buffed, some more than needed and become insane and some of the rest top characters will start being exposed after downplayers saved them from the nerfs, and that'll be it.

But you know, still hoping:DOGE
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Hey guys, CrazyFingers here and today I'm here to just talk about a few specific things involving balance for fighting games and where MKXL should probably want to be after its final patch is said and done. So without further ado, the points I will be covering are these.

  • When is a Top 5/10 list a list of characters that MUST be dealt with?
  • What is the final goal for a competitive game's balance team?
  • Finally, why "preemptive nerfing" is an unhealthy practice in a patch based fighting game.
So! No more dilly dallying let's get this show on the road.

When are the Top Tier "Too" Top Tier
So whenever there is a fighting game, there is always a "Top Tier". However, the question that needs to be asked when talking about balancing the top tier is "When is this list of characters/specific character too much in one direction." and by that I mean, when is a character 'broke'. When is it at the point where a character NEEDS to be dealt with. Before we go into that, we have to ask exactly what a 'broken' character entails. A character is broken when it has a tool or tools that cause you to play the game in an almost 100% different way due to their impact on the game. There are obviously varying levels of broken but this kind of broken is when you almost feel like you're playing a different game in between rounds. For example, pre nerf Quan Chi is one of the epitomes of a broken character. The things he did were NOT ok. It caused you to be in a permanent state of having to block in ways that, quite frankly, this game was not meant to do. "Low (Tiny Pause) Overhead. Low IMMEDIATELY overhead, Overhead IMMEDIATELY low, etc etc" are not exactly what NRS was probably thinking of when they thought of what they wanted in their game. The PEAK of this was on release Tanya or as I like to call her "Block Simulator" because let's face it, the character was like playing solitaire. So there will always be the Quans and Tanyas, but what about the less extreme but still REALLY high up there. Well, that's what we have right now. The following is a short list of character that break the game in ridiculous ways, and how they do this.
  • Sonya (Demolitions)- Shock Grenades create multiple scenarios in which you basically have to throw your knowledge of fighting games out the window. Trades are non-existent, and the Sonya has complete control over the situation.
  • Alien (All Variations)- Alien throws any sense of spacing out the window with simply 3 buttons. D4, B3, F4. The fact that alien is able to hit you from near full screen with normals and little to no way of punishing it, along with that being a 50/50 on top of it, is ridiculous in its own right. But when you get into canceling into flips and 50/50's after landing a D4, you start to go to a crazy land where this is no longer a fighting game.
  • Takeda (Not Ronin)- Takeda has this little move called EX Kunai. This does almost the exact same dirt as Sonya without it being so flexible. Throwing this move out makes it so the opponent has to try and guess SO MANY THINGS that it is insane. Do they release and cash out on plus frames/chip? Do they hard to block able? Do they delay it? Who knows m8! This is MKX! Where the only thing you need to know is that THERE ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS.
  • Kano (Cutthroat)- So here's a fun game. It's the "How many times can you guess before you get tagged?" you better hope the answer is a high number because Cutthroat will mix you to the bank. Now usually this wouldn't be an issue, 50/50's are just a commonplace thing in MKX. But 50/50's into plus frames and EVEN MORE 50/50s? And if that wasn't enough, you also have to think "Will he read the armored wakeup?" because if he does, you eat 40% minimum for your troubles. AND the armor breaking setup has to versions! A low, and an overhead! Causing the setup to basically be able to be thrown out there whenever! The character causes you to constantly flip coins with little interaction with what he's doing.
  • D'vorrah (Swarm Queen)- So there is one thing and one thing only that causes this character to break the game. No it's not grenade cancels and no it is no 50/50's. It is fucking puddle. Puddle, is +22 on block. Puddle, can be used to break armor. Puddle, makes it so there is only two kinds of wakeups, and that is delayed wakeup and wakeup block, because this damn tool causes you to play hospital waiting room and guess what! You're the guy with a gunshot wound when there's three pregnant ladies and a stabbing victim in front of you because you'll be waiting a LONG time friend.
  • Jason Vorheez (Unstoppable)- Ok...so I love this character. He's one of my mains and I think he's super fun...but DD3...breaks armor. Like...talk about LITERALLY breaking the game. The character makes everyone freaking Blood God Kotal when it comes to wakeup options. Do I think he needs a nerf? Not really. Does this break the game in a huge way? Yes. Why did I put him on here? To show that you can break the game and NOT be super overpowered.
That is just a couple of characters that break the game but keep in mind the last one. Jason Vorheez. Jason is an A+ character who is VERY solid all around, and DD3 is one of the best moves in the entire game. However, he doesn't need nerfs. This is to show that just because a character has game breaking potential, it does not mean they need to be nerfed. Now, if it's not JUST breaking the game that gets you nerfed, then what else should justify a nerf? Well it's simple. The other half of a character needing a nerf is when they do something that the rest of the cast cannot one up them on. For example, you will not find a single character in MKX that will be able to compete with Alien's space control. No character in the game will have better OKI than D'vorrah and no character in the game will out trade Sonya. It will not happen. When you have a character that does something SO good that no one else can even touch them on it, that is when you have to realize that is an issue that needs to be dealt with.
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A Fighting Game Balance Team's "End Goal"

When people talk about a fighting game being "Balanced" the majority is probably thinking something along the lines of "Everyone is viable and the same power level" seems like a reasonable idea for balancing right? Well the problem is, it's not. Whenever you are talking about a competitive game of ANY kind, there will always be the strongest, the middle tier, and the weakest. The goal of balance team in a fighting game specifically isn't to make the weak as strong as the current top and the current top as weak as the current low tier. This is what people have been so kind enough to attach a phrase to, that phrase being "Tier Shifting". This is a state of being where the game becomes a boring cycle of balance patches not improving the meta of the game sometimes making it even worse (see pre MKXL in comparison to post MKXL, the results are clearly worse) And the way that this kind of design perpetuates itself is when the community CONTINUOUSLY overreacts to the things presented to them. A perfect example of overreaction on the part of the community is when people get a hold of NRS games early/when they get them day one. The community will every single time, WITHOUT FAIL, cry "Overpowered" and "Nerf this, Nerf that" upon seeing something that is even remotely strong (RIP On Release Ice Klone, you were never given the light of day). This kind of behavior obviously has perpetuated itself till this very day with MKX. Triborgs getting over normalized while Alien is kept at a VERY unstable and powerful form, because all the attention was brought to the "OP OP" of Triborg. So if constantly nerfing and buffing characters to overblown proportions isn't how we balance the game, then how is. Well, it's simple, balancing in a fighting game is about closing the gap. Now what I mean by this is that yes, every character can be played at the highest level and win. The mid tier competes with top, the top competes with low tier and vice versa. There will ALWAYS be a top 5. Never EVER in a million years will you find a fighting game that doesn't have the strongest and the weakest. This will ALWAYS be the case but the balancing team isn't there to fulfill your dreams of having a top tier monster at your disposal because you bitched about them not being good enough. They are there to normalize, to make sure that you Unbreakable Sub CAN beat the Demo Sonya. A perfect example of this sort of design is Soul Calibur 2. This is one of if not the most balanced fighting game ever made, I will fight till my last dying breath about this. The tiers were all there, with Spawn being the only really "trash" (god I hate that term in FG's) character in the game, the rest of it was 100% VIABILITY. If you can eventually beat that Demo with Unbreakable, we made it boys...and girls I guess.
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What is "Preemptive Nerfing" and Why is it Unhealthy for the Game
So, usually around incoming patch time you will see countless threads crying for nerfs and buffs. But one thing that I'm sure we have seen is "Nerf this guy 'just in case' he's op after the current top tier are gone". I will preface this by informing you of my AGGRESSIVE hatred of this mentality of thinking. Why do I hate this mentality? I am so glad you asked, I love a good rant. The reason this line of thinking is Unhealthy is simple. We have no way of TRULY knowing the outcome of them at their current state being in a game where the original oppressive top tier does not exist. This creates things like Cyber Sub Zero in his current state. NRS didn't give it more than a month before they nerfed the ever loving shit out of him and now, a lot of people call him bottom 5 in the game and for good reason. This was most definitely a form of Preemptive nerfing. Another perfect example of this is Leatherface, in fact, this is possibly the BIGGEST example of it. Upon release Leatherface had a few notable things in his arsenal. In Killer, he obtained unarmorable unblockable setups that were either backdash or eat it. This was strong, but by no means something that needed to be nerfed, and yet NRS was SO FUCKING SCARED of this possibly making everyone mad that they took it away in the blink of an eye. The other thing they snatched from him were both in Butcher, his now worst variation. He had a true vortex by ending combos in S22, which forced the opponent to guess and he ALSO had the fastest command grab in the game in the form of his 6f DBF 1. However, they took away BOTH of these. And these nerfs weren't based off of any concrete data, it was all "Just in case they're op" nerfs. This form of thinking can ALSO be applied to buffs, which is fucking terrifying and has created things like Piercing Mileena and Takeda. Characters who people constantly called trash, low tier etc that got more buffs than some characters get nerfs and buffs combined. This form of thinking causes for flimsy design that just makes the entirety of your game a balancing nightmare.

WELL THERE IT IS FOLKS!
Hope you all learned a thing or two or at least have some stuff think about. Feel free to discuss what I went over in the comments, would love to hear what the community has to say about this topic!
you sir are now in my top 10 people on TYM:) honestly i didn't think anyone else on TYM thought like me on the subject.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
EX Kunai is not just a "50 50". You have only one option. Mash and move your ass out of there unless you want to try your luck on a one frame HTB into 36, or maybe eat some plus 32.

Anyways, this game sadly is broken on a fundamental level. Launching mixups that are safe, plus, or even unsafe it doesn't matter, half/ full screen mixups with no hurtbox completely oblliterating neutral, NJPS and NJKs with stupid range that can be made plus, double hitting armor moves, Plus gapless jailing pressure, safe armored launchers...

List goes on. This is the core of the game, its what its based on. And this upcoming patch is not fixing any of that. Unless this patch is like 15 Gigs and redoes the games meta from scratch, I'm afraid this game will remain an infestation of the list above.

New patch is going to nerf the top 5 to the ground so people will start complaining, the low tiers will get buffed, some more than needed and become insane and some of the rest top characters will start being exposed after downplayers saved them from the nerfs, and that'll be it.

But you know, still hoping:DOGE
and often thats what happends, surley we all see it, the agenda marchers, popping this tech is OP right before nerf day approches. and then the constant front page treatment. its always that character is OP forget about mine.

ive been so sick of it. Litterally there has been nothing to do but Pick Bottom tier chars and hoep for the best buffs. cuz if you choose top or slose to you are in for some injust nerfs.
 
Complaints about he current meta and a discussion about game balance are, I suppose, hand in hand... since it seems like the way balancing has happened was to give low tiers tools that are effective in the current meta and take some of the effective tools away from top tiers., rather than consider whether or not the meta is desirable. As Eddy said, what this ends up with is characters doing slightly better or slightly worse things within the same exact game.

Anyway.. I don't think there should be any matchups where at the highest level of play, the match is totally determined off the bat from character select. Amazing as it is, people actually disagree with that. It's just mind blowing. For any of you that watched ABS7 this past weekend... Two very good, evenly matched players were playing in top 8. But one guy was Kano, and the match was over right off the bat when GM sub was picked. That's a stupid ass fucking game. I know Kano has a lot of favorable matchups... in fact more than most.. but jesus Christ why is it OK that it's just flat out over before it starts because of the selected characters? why is that OK ever? That match made the game look ridiculously terrible.
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
Great points, although I want to play a bit of devil's advocate in regards to your view of Pre-emptive nerfing.

What about cases where people genuinely believe a tool/character is too powerful, but they are overshadowed by even more powerful/broken options. Example of this is D'Vorah and Kung Jin. In my opinion, these two need to be adjusted with the latest patch, not because I feel like I'm trying to pre-emptively take care of them, but because they are both great characters that have amazing tools that circumvent the rules of the game.

If we only nerf the establish top tier (Alien, Piercing, Demo, Cutthroat, Takeda), then we essentially shift that title to the next group of characters (D'Vorah, Shaolin, Mystic, A-List, Shotgun).
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Great points, although I want to play a bit of devil's advocate in regards to your view of Pre-emptive nerfing.

What about cases where people genuinely believe a tool/character is too powerful, but they are overshadowed by even more powerful/broken options. Example of this is D'Vorah and Kung Jin. In my opinion, these two need to be adjusted with the latest patch, not because I feel like I'm trying to pre-emptively take care of them, but because they are both great characters that have amazing tools that circumvent the rules of the game.

If we only nerf the establish top tier (Alien, Piercing, Demo, Cutthroat, Takeda), then we essentially shift that title to the next group of characters (D'Vorah, Shaolin, Mystic, A-List, Shotgun).
I agree. If people are asking for buffs for a mid tier character than they don't actually want a balanced game. Only nerfs to the top and buffs to the low should be made imo.

Characters like CSZ who had an insane amount of strengths that outweighed his weaknesses. When ALL the strengths except mobility were taken, NONE of his weaknesses were helped, now he is total shit.

Same could be said about Tempest Lao, Cyrax, Tanya, and Erron Black (even though they are still way better than CSZ). But they still faced Paulo's wrath and weren't given anything to help their weaknesses.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Great points, although I want to play a bit of devil's advocate in regards to your view of Pre-emptive nerfing.

What about cases where people genuinely believe a tool/character is too powerful, but they are overshadowed by even more powerful/broken options. Example of this is D'Vorah and Kung Jin. In my opinion, these two need to be adjusted with the latest patch, not because I feel like I'm trying to pre-emptively take care of them, but because they are both great characters that have amazing tools that circumvent the rules of the game.

If we only nerf the establish top tier (Alien, Piercing, Demo, Cutthroat, Takeda), then we essentially shift that title to the next group of characters (D'Vorah, Shaolin, Mystic, A-List, Shotgun).
That is kind of what he said. in many more words, he believe like me i think, in the sense that its Tier shifting, Bringing up the bottom which needs to be done and is impoirtant just as much as bringing down the Over the top. they are very important, but it does nothing to address the real isuues with the game all it does is shift who is top and who is bottom. There are Flaws with the game mechanics that are making the problems arise. Along with Hardcore Nerfs/Buffs that creat the mess. and like he said, Nerfing/Buffing "Just In Case" situation that ruined characters like: Cyrax and CSZ, as well as others.

for instance, characters in a game can do what the rules allow, they give a leeway point from A to point B, you can do this within the bounds of this game reality, and thats it, but when a game developer Intends for one thing to happen and delivers another thats when we have this problem and they get overwealmed and cater to the masses instead of addressing the game mechanics which would keep the top for becoming over the top. They should however address these top tier and bottom tier request because it is in the games best intrest and the player base, but if they don't address certain things like Broken shit Example NJP's being plus on block, or characters having certain tools that other characters can only hold power of with Xray's then the bottom line is not addressed and previous problems will arise.

Has to be said though, MKXL is by far one of the greatest games made its in my Top 5. and they did an awesome job, Graphics wise, and with foundation, we could see what they tried to creat with there adjustments. But sometimes a simple patch is not enough.

so as you can see the OP is saying what you are saying just in a different way.


and @CrazyFingers Has to be said, this has to be my favorite intelligent thread crated on TYM. Great job, you made a place to discuss game mechanics and Balance without it getting out of hand, and to that i Tip my hat, i have tried many times to explain this point of view and well i just never hit the nail on the head. I just failed and you succeeded.

But in another aspect, they have been tier shifting quite a bit, and we know they are not taking another approach than the usual. You think it's quite possible that if they cut out the Pre-Emptive Patching then some how on this last patch we could have hope that they don't nerf to hard or to Little and get it just right?

I mean if you cycle them enough it can be made right if you know what i mean, but i do understand the point that doing it this way is really inefficient. as we have seen on KI, PR, SF, Tekken, DOA and many other games.
 
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