The Tierlist is ALMOST Correct

[Tom Brady]

No, I am not going to move Liu Kang up just because MIT beat Perfect Legend with him. I am also not going to move Cyrax to "auto-top three" just because Maxter was raping players left and right with him at Dallas.

You guys need to stop with this flavor of the month shit. If Perfect Legend wins NEC, everyone is going to go back to saying "yeah KL is top 3", etc. While some of the match-up specific numbers aren't set in stone, they are still there in varying amounts which is why certain characters have been agreed to be where they are.

my reasons for LK are 0.0% around PL vs MIT.


dude.. if anything just change the icons so that the character's with the blood splatter are at the front of the group. I cant tell you how many people look at that list and get confused.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

I'm really not sure who's better between Sonya and Kung Lao, Sonya has the element of confusion with all that MS and mix up options, but Kung Lao has that stupid ass spin which basically can be a deterrant for low pokes, cross overs, jump in's normals and basically everything but a projectile or armor, always makes me paranoid approaching him but Sonya's en cartwheel does have almost no consequence even blocked but can be jumped over. hmm.

 

[RiBBz22]

Any character that possesses the ability to one shot you should never be overlooked. I'm shock and appalled that it took the community this long to accept that Smoke and Cyrax have their place at the top of the food chain.

So where do you put Quan Chi on this tier list? Top 5?

 

[16 Bit]

Liu Kang isn't a flavor of the month. West Coast has been pumping up Liu Kang for over a year and they've shown why on a national stage. Their guys have had Liu Kang in the top 8 of Evo 2011, 2012 and MLG. Why are we not listening to the region that has the top Liu Kang players?

DJTMIT get in here lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Liu Kang isn't a flavor of the month. West Coast has been pumping up Liu Kang for over a year and they've shown why on a national stage. Their guys have had Liu Kang in the top 8 of Evo 2011, 2012 and MLG. Why are we not listening to the region that has the top Liu Kang players?

DJTMIT get in here lol

tru...evo 2011 till now...Kang has always been viable

 

[REO]

my reasons for LK are 0.0% around PL vs MIT.


dude.. if anything just change the icons so that the character's with the blood splatter are at the front of the group. I cant tell you how many people look at that list and get confused.

They're not in order from best to worse on the list... It's in alphabetical order. I guess we could make it alphabetical with blood splatter characters priority first, then the rest alphabetical. m2dave BillStickers, thoughts?

I'm really not sure who's better between Sonya and Kung Lao, Sonya has the element of confusion with all that MS and mix up options, but Kung Lao has that stupid ass spin which basically can be a deterrant for low pokes, cross overs, jump in's normals and basically everything but a projectile or armor, always makes me paranoid approaching him but Sonya's en cartwheel does have almost no consequence even blocked but can be jumped over. hmm.

Sonya has 3-7 losing match-up, Kung Lao doesn't. Really now?

Liu Kang isn't a flavor of the month. West Coast has been pumping up Liu Kang for over a year and they've shown why on a national stage. Their guys have had Liu Kang in the top 8 of Evo 2011, 2012 and MLG. Why are we not listening to the region that has the top Liu Kang players?

DJTMIT get in here lol

By your logic Stryker should be moved up and Kabal needs to be moved down. The list isn't based on tournament results, it's based on tournament viability. There's a difference. You guys can go make a tournament result tier list and have Jax and Kung Lao at S+ for all I care.

 

[STRYKIE]

EX low hat is +20 on hit again

It is. :tonyt

 

[gdf]

I'm really not sure who's better between Sonya and Kung Lao, Sonya has the element of confusion with all that MS and mix up options, but Kung Lao has that stupid ass spin which basically can be a deterrant for low pokes, cross overs, jump in's normals and basically everything but a projectile or armor, always makes me paranoid approaching him but Sonya's en cartwheel does have almost no consequence even blocked but can be jumped over. hmm.

The thing about Kung Lao's spin is that it has a risk/reward factor. In a perfect world, every Kung Lao would spin a Kabal out of 2~NDC, but it isn't. Sonya's pressure has more safety than Kung Lao.


I don't know Sonya well enough, but to be honest a tier list should be based on who wins more matches overall, not X beats Y so X should be higher on the tierlist.

It is. :tonyt

EX Low Hat hits high. So if you stand block 2,4, ex low hat, you'll only take full damage for the 4. If you didn't already know.

 

[BillStickers]

Personally, I wasn't convinced by Tom Brady's explanation of how great Liu Kang is. For those that didn't listen last night, he said that Liu Kang deserves to be in A+ because he can zone you high and low, then once you get in on him, you have to deal with his quick mixups.

In other words: Sindel.

REO I'm fine with re-ordering the list.

 

[STRYKIE]

The thing about Kung Lao's spin is that it has a risk/reward factor. In a perfect world, every Kung Lao would spin a Kabal out of 2~NDC, but it isn't. Sonya's pressure has more safety than Kung Lao.


I don't know Sonya well enough, but to be honest a tier list should be based on who wins more matches overall, not X beats Y so X should be higher on the tierlist.

EX Low Hat hits high. So if you stand block 2,4, ex low hat, you'll only take full damage for the 4. If you didn't already know.

Yes I do know, I just find it funny how everybody is still parading over that nerf a year later. It was overrated to begin with.

 

[gdf]

Yes I do know, I just find it funny how everybody is still parading over that nerf a year later. It was overrated to begin with.

I completely agree with that. I won a lot of matches with Kung Lao early in the life of the game without using 2,4, low hat. Mostly because I didn't know about it until Fly told me, lol.

 

[16 Bit]

By your logic Stryker should be moved up and Kabal needs to be moved down. The list isn't based on tournament results, it's based on tournament viability. There's a difference. You guys can go make a tournament result tier list and have Jax and Kung Lao at S+ for all I care.

Yeah no. Stryker was IN the Evo top 8 but he didn't MAKE the top 8. Stryker was MIT pulling a hail mary after already making top 8 with his usual cast of characters. Liu Kang as a main or serious secondary is consistently in these top 8's in the west coast and when they travel.

It is about tournament viability and clearly he's viable. Isn't it possible your Liu Kang MU numbers are wrong? Why are REO and M2Dave the Liu Kang matchup police? West Coast is who should be determing Liu Kang viability. All the guys there that play Liu Kang hype him up. All the guys that play those guys hype him up. They consistenly deliver. Yet we continue to downplaying Liu Kang. Baffling.

 

[16 Bit]

Personally, I wasn't convinced by Tom Brady's explanation of how great Liu Kang is. For those that didn't listen last night, he said that Liu Kang deserves to be in A+ because he can zone you high and low, then once you get in on him, you have to deal with his quick mixups.

In other words: Sindel.

REO I'm fine with re-ordering the list.

Dude Liu Kang's mixups are significantly better than Sindel's. His 50/50's are all full combo/continued pressure rewards. He is also much faster, has much better counter poking and has amor. Get out of here.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Mine is almost exactly the same.

In order:
S+: Kabal.
S: Standouts - Kenshi, Cyrax, Sonya. Others - Kung Lao, Krueger, (maybe) Skarlet - I'm sure she is, but it's yet to be proven.
A+: Standouts: Human Cyrax, Cage, Skarlet (if she isn't eventually proven better). Others - Reptile, Kitana, Liu Kang, Smoke.
I think, to a higher than high player who knows both Kang and Smoke inside out, that Liu is more dangerous.
A: Standouts - Ermac, Raiden, Shang Tsung. Others: Sektor, Mileena, Rain.
Rain's meterless damage is second to none, but he collectively has to take more risks to kill than Robo Tomato or Milly.
B: Standouts: Sub-Zero, Quan Chi. Others - Sindel, Scorpion, Noob Saibot, Jade.
Quan Chi, much like Sub-Zero's midscreen/corner differences, is a different fight completely with and without Meter.
I think when Jade's spacing is properly, perfectly manipulated, she's good enough for a B.
C: Baraka, Nightwolf, Stryker. All dead even.
D: Standout: Sheeva. Other: Kano.
A giant hitbox and a nerf plague puts these two in last.

 

[BillStickers]

Dude Liu Kang's mixups are significantly better than Sindel's. His 50/50's are all full combo/continued pressure rewards. He is also much faster, has much better counter poking and has amor. Get out of here.

Sindel has step up and Liu has his kick thingy as overheads. They both have low starters. They both have pressure shenanigans. And don't even act like Kang's armor is something to get excited about, it's absolute trash.

And just as a counterpoint to this Liu Kang stuff, Mileena has fared far better in tournament than Liu Kang has, yet she is in B tier--one tier lower than Kang is.

 

[Seven]

Good Job Tom

 

[REO]

Yeah no. Stryker was IN the Evo top 8 but he didn't MAKE the top 8. Stryker was MIT pulling a hail mary after already making top 8 with his usual cast of characters. Liu Kang as a main or serious secondary is consistently in these top 8's in the west coast and when they travel.

It is about tournament viability and clearly he's viable. Isn't it possible your Liu Kang MU numbers are wrong? Why are REO and M2Dave the Liu Kang matchup police? West Coast is who should be determing Liu Kang viability. All the guys there that play Liu Kang hype him up. All the guys that play those guys hype him up. They consistenly deliver. Yet we continue to downplaying Liu Kang. Baffling.

It doesn't matter, Stryker got to see play in top eight at EVO where 80% of the cast has never gotten a chance to. You still have to factor that in the grand scheme of things. You can't just write that off as "whatever" if you're going by tournament matches. Either count them all, or go by a different ranking format. And please name me all of the Kenshi and Freddy players on west coast again? Oh, right. No wonder Liu Kang is so gdlk there. The only times I remember seeing Liu Kang make top eight at majors was at EVO 2012 and MLG Dallas. I never seen such a heart-wrecking match-up in my life until I saw Xblades playing Pig on the main stage. Also MIT opted to switch out of Liu Kang for top eight at Dallas and go with Reptile. It sure convinced me Liu Kang is top. 16 Bit, I know you would love for me to place all characters in top ten that give Kitana trouble, but this is not how a tier list on tournament viability works.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Yeah no. Stryker was IN the Evo top 8 but he didn't MAKE the top 8. Stryker was MIT pulling a hail mary after already making top 8 with his usual cast of characters. Liu Kang as a main or serious secondary is consistently in these top 8's in the west coast and when they travel.

It is about tournament viability and clearly he's viable. Isn't it possible your Liu Kang MU numbers are wrong? Why are REO and M2Dave the Liu Kang matchup police? West Coast is who should be determing Liu Kang viability. All the guys there that play Liu Kang hype him up. All the guys that play those guys hype him up. They consistenly deliver. Yet we continue to downplaying Liu Kang. Baffling.

Stryker was in top 8 about the same way rain was in top 8

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Mine is almost exactly the same.

Rain's meterless damage is second to none, but he collectively has to take more risks to kill than Robo Tomato or Milly.

its second to skarlet

 

[16 Bit]

MIT used Liu Kang in every MU but one, Kitana. Which he considers a 5-5 MU(and I agree so don't play that bias card). Almost no one is using one character. If that's now criteria we need to talk about Johnny Cage and Kitana being the best. Get out of here.

 

[TomlulsBrady]

16 Bit, I know you would love for me to place all characters in top ten that give Kitana trouble, but this is not how a tier list on tournament viability works.

an elaborate plot so 16bit can sneak in some downplay kitana, dayum that's a low blow REO, come on.

 

[REO]

MIT used Liu Kang in every MU but one, Kitana. Which he considers a 5-5 MU(and I agree so don't play that bias card). Almost no one is using one character. If that's now criteria we need to talk about Johnny Cage and Kitana being the best. Get out of here.

Oh, shit, so Liu Kang doesn't beat Kitana now? Damn, Liu Kang sure is looking better by the days.

 

[16 Bit]

Sindel has step up and Liu has his kick thingy as overheads. They both have low starters. They both have pressure shenanigans. And don't even act like Kang's armor is something to get excited about, it's absolute trash.

And just as a counterpoint to this Liu Kang stuff, Mileena has fared far better in tournament than Liu Kang has, yet she is in B tier--one tier lower than Kang is.

Are you being serious? Liu Kang's f+3/b+3 mixup is way beter than step up/b+1. f+3 is safe and the reward is more offense. b+3 is a 10 frame low.

Liu Kang's armor gets the job done. It's better than nothing.

 

[Big D]

First, let me start off by giving props to REO and m2dave for putting the current list together. I believe this list is 98% accurate.

the only issues I have are sonya, kung lao, liu kang, mileena, nightwolf, and shang. the reasons why these characters are where they are are because of MU's that they lose. LBSH.. if it were a fact that we accurately know EVERY mu score then we wouldnt need this grouping tier list, we would have an accurate mu chart and let the numbers decide. The fact is that we dont know every mu accurately yet, so we use this group system. with that being said, there is no way to decide that a character like Liu Kang is not is A+ but better then characters in A, yet still in A. ESPECIALLY when he is considered on par with all of the characters in the A+ tier by most of the community.

My version of the tier list looks like this..

S+:
Kabal

S:
Characters that stand out above the others - Kenshi, Sonya. Other characters that are in this tier - Kung Lao, Cyrax, Freddy

A+:
H Cyrax, JAX, Cage, Kitana, Reptile, Smoke, Liu Kang, Skarlet

A:
Characters that stand out above the others - Raiden, Shang Tsung. Other characters in this tier - Ermac, Rain, Sektor, Mileena

B:
Characters that stand out above the others - Sub-Zero. Other characters in this tier - Sindel, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Noob Saibot, Cyber Sub-Zero.

C:
Characters that stand out above the others - Nightwolf, Jade. Other characters in this tier - Baraka, Stryker

D:
Characters that stand out - Sheeva. Others in the tier - Kano

You are relentless man lol. Did our conversation last night do nothing at all? >.<

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

kang is definitely good. Here is the issue...in the tier chart like tom posted you have the argument that osu and reo are having. The only way to solce that argument is to have actual MU numbers and make a chart based on who has highest points. But that means you have to have accurate numbers (which we dont know).

Realize that what can sometimes make a character tournament viable is the opponents unfamiliarity with that character. Big D made top 8 with ermac and NW in two different tournaments. does that make them top 8 material in a tier list? Maybe his opponents just didnt have the total MU in check.

Tournament wins are about the player more than a character...The player wins, not the character. You have to separate that from this list because it is about viability. Viability has to separated from the flaws of a human.