The Newest Mortal Kombat (9) Tier List

[Sao87]

Where would you rank him?

Well I'd say his bad match ups are as follows.

Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot, Reptile, Kitana, Kabal and Shang Tsung. (Freddy might go up here, just not to familiar with it yet.)

Tough match ups are as follows.

Quan Chi, Sektor, Sindel, Freddy, Kenshi

Small hitbox characters really shut down his offensive pressure options.

Quan Chi, Reptile, etc.

I think Cage is a great character to have in your pocket but not as a main because he has a steep hill to climb.

If anyone wants to argue about Shang Tsung than I challenge you to play against Detroit, I'm sure Marvaz would back me up on this opinion.

 

[Sasuga]

So I'm guessing Rain's bad matchups, Kitana and Shang Tsung..?

 

[Slips]

I don't see how Ermac can be zoned THAT BAD by just straight horizontal fireball characters. True, if they gain the projectile advantage full screen Ermac has to work his way in...but its just a dash and a half away to get them in tkp range and they have to stop, its not like its hard to get there. After a tkp HE gets the projectile advantage.

So the argument of Ermac getting zoned full screen seems a bit overblown to me. There's very few characters that can compete with Jax up close, so that argument seems overblown to me too. You all admit that when he's in tkp he has the advantage, and thats a range that will come into play before the the up close game comes into effect.

This is for nearly every character Ermac fights, everyone has to play his game at one point or another, and a good Ermac player can use that tkp range to mount an offense or create space to turtle more. Thats why I think he should be ranked higher.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

REO

I've stopped thinking nw is top tier for a while now...that's why I play kabal and kenshi...lol. I do believe NW has dropped in the list since the patch. That said, I still believe he is higher tier than ALL the C characters and he beats half of the A characters. He does lose matches but I don't think any of them are worse than 6-4. He isn't broken with LT but his rushdown and damage are some of the best out there. His counter zoning is decent and with armor makes a bad matchup bearable.

But seriously I think there should be an S, A, B, C and that's it. So many characters in this game are soooooo close in matchups that it's hard to distinguish a B from a C or an A+ fom an A.

P.s.
If only LT worked like smoke bomb reset...sigh

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Nw beats ermac also...I can out zone you with lightning and reflect. I can also punish push with shoulder into LT

 

[cyke_out]

Smoke is one I still need to get a handle on but I'm not convinced it's that bad. Yes, his d4 is good, but jumping from that range is a hundred times less risky on him than it is on Mileena. He doesn't have a way out of pressure beyond the standard crouching normals (don't say EX shake plz). Oh, and he can't punish upball very well at all which is always big.

Sonya scares me more than Smoke at this point. Better d4 that forces real mixups, and better anti-air. Kano just isn't a character who can realistically keep someone out the entire match, so these things will inevitably come into play.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that Freddy is pretty borderline too. I think it's a 4.5 for Kano - you can air ball pretty much all his crap on reaction, but that doesn't get you in so you have to do a lot of those and hope you eventually scare him into not doing anything when you jump. Getting in isn't quite the reward for Kano that it is for Cage, though, which is why he still loses it. But I don't think it's a hard counter or anything.

EDIT: Forgot Sektor! I could easily see him being as bad as Jax. Trading projectiles isn't great since you get knocked down, his b+34 means you can't space him out, f+1 whiffs if he crouch blocks, and he can jab you our of almost all your pressure.

How bad is Kano/Jax? I do beleive that Jax wins, but I don't see how it's any worse than just 6-4. In fact, I really don't see Kano having any major lopsided (6.5-2.5 or greater) losing match ups.

 

[Ruuku1012]

So if I understand all of this correctly, people are saying that Ermac's game only focuses on getting into max force push range. Because most Ermac players I've seen don't do it, it doesn't mean that Ermac can't pressure his opponents at close range. The fact that the majority of his strings/moves are punishable doesn't dismiss the efficient ones like u4, b2, f2, b114, and 31.

Smoke is one I still need to get a handle on but I'm not convinced it's that bad. Yes, his d4 is good, but jumping from that range is a hundred times less risky on him than it is on Mileena. He doesn't have a way out of pressure beyond the standard crouching normals (don't say EX shake plz). Oh, and he can't punish upball very well at all which is always big.

Sonya scares me more than Smoke at this point. Better d4 that forces real mixups, and better anti-air. Kano just isn't a character who can realistically keep someone out the entire match, so these things will inevitably come into play.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that Freddy is pretty borderline too. I think it's a 4.5 for Kano - you can air ball pretty much all his crap on reaction, but that doesn't get you in so you have to do a lot of those and hope you eventually scare him into not doing anything when you jump. Getting in isn't quite the reward for Kano that it is for Cage, though, which is why he still loses it. But I don't think it's a hard counter or anything.

EDIT: Forgot Sektor! I could easily see him being as bad as Jax. Trading projectiles isn't great since you get knocked down, his b+34 means you can't space him out, f+1 whiffs if he crouch blocks, and he can jab you our of almost all your pressure.

About the Smoke match up, what really bothers me is that Kano's forced to get in. If Smoke gets the lead this match can become very annoying.

As far as the Sonya match up goes, I think it's more about trying to punish her approach rather than only trying to keep her out. But my Sonya experience is limited so there must be factors I'm not aware of.

Against Freddy I find enhanced air ball to be really efficient since it leaves him closer to Kano on hit. Freddy's the kind of match up in Kano has to be patient and pick his shots. I hate the fact that you pretty much get nothing from hitting good out pressure characters with straight or air ball. So for Freddy I try to dash block until I know that if I connect a ball he'll end up in the corner.

Sektor is one of those characters I need to learn to fight against. I get blown up by him since I have close to no experience against him. >_<

 

[M2Dave]

[MENTION=27]m2dave[/MENTION]

Reptile was put in A+ meaning 3-4 bad matchups.

I'm guessing they are:
Mileena
Sektor
Freddy
Kabal

Correct me if I'm wrong? Also will there be more details coming up soon about what the bad matchups are? I think Liu Kang could be a bad matchup for Reptile or at the very best 5-5 for Reptile.

Mileena is Reptile's hardest match up for sure because of the prominent f,f+3 xx aerial sai blast issue. Then you have characters like Liu Kang and Sektor who arguably have a minor advantage over Reptile. Kabal is even, according to THTB, and according to me, most Reptile players have no idea how to fight Freddy. Despite his poor mobility (elbow dash aside), Reptile has some unique tools that are very effective vs Freddy. The match could end up being even, so we did not include Freddy as a bad match up. Reptile is one of the most versatile characters in the game. He should never be ranked worse than A+ tier.

Cage is a solid B tier character. He's a nice pocket character for some of the upper tier characters - Kung Lao, Mileena and Raiden for instance. But he gets shut down way too easily by zoners.

I still cannot understand how Cage beats Mileena. From what I understand, Foxy's argument is that he will whiff punish Mileena's iaSBs or d+4 with EX shadow kick and turtle for the rest of the round, which is one of the most theory based statements I have ever read. Again, Cage can do nothing vs a properly spaced d+4 because none of his normals have adequate range to whiff punish the poke. b+3 falls short, regular shadow kick hits high, and EX shadow kick requires meter. Cage has to jump, which Mileena can easily AA with ball. Anything else Cage tries to do is also whiff punishable by ball.

The fact that the majority of his strings/moves are punishable doesn't dismiss the efficient ones like u4, b2, f2, b114, and 31.

u+4 is an average overhead. f+2 and b+2 are average pokes. b+1 has a 21 frame start up. Good luck using it outside of jumping punches. 3,1 is interruptable by low pokes. It only jails high crouching hitbox characters.

Ermac has poor defense, as everybody already knows, and poor offense because his strings are too slow. Many of them do not jail either. His fireball is average. The only good thing about Ermac aside from his damage is by far max range TKP because the move allows him to zone most characters safely, and you obviously cannot reflect, parry, etc. TKPs.

 

[CitizenSnips]

Mileena is Reptile's hardest match up for sure because of the prominent f,f+3 xx aerial sai blast issue. Then you have characters like Liu Kang and Sektor who arguably have a minor advantage over Reptile. Kabal is even, according to THTB, and according to me, most Reptile players have no idea how to fight Freddy. Despite his poor mobility (elbow dash aside), Reptile has some unique tools that are very effective vs Freddy. The match could end up being even, so we did not include Freddy as a bad match up. Reptile is one of the most versatile characters in the game. He should never be ranked worse than A+ tier.

Yeah I agree with everything you said. I recently played SwiftTomHanks in a tournament and while fighting Sektor can be a pain in the ass, I don't think he holds any big advantage over him. I ended up winning because if you can time and bait the missiles from like mid screen then the match isn't so bad.

I won't talk about Freddy because I basically have 0 matchup experience against a really legit one.

Liu Kang I think theoretically should have advantage over Reptile but I can't recall watching many fights between the two.

KAbal I'm inclined to believe has a small advantage over REptile, I know that Reptile has a lot of tools including a low hitbox but I still think Reptile has a tough time getting much offense against him. Or maybe it's just something that I personally need to work on

 

[MK Peanuts]

Liu Kang I think theoretically should have advantage over Reptile but I can't recall watching many fights between the two.

Winners finals and grand finals of Impact Clash had ATL Redd vs Chris G. It wasn't all Liu Kang vs Reptile because Redd switched to Smoke for some games, but the games where he played Liu Kang should be indicative of how the matchup goes at a high level. The aftermath thread for the tournament has links to video of the matches: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?11815-Chris-G-wins-Impact-Clash-Results

 

[eyehaveyou17]

Personally I think that scorpion is a tough match for reptile(I'm a scorpion player). This is because scorpion can do a close jump kick then cancel into a teleport to make him totally safe. This is because of reptiles extremely low hitbox. Also scorpion can now punish reptiles dash more easily with his 7 frame 33 into spear, which can now lead into a vortex setup thanks to slips and check along with other members of the creative scorpion community.

 

[CitizenSnips]

Winners finals and grand finals of Impact Clash had ATL Redd vs Chris G. It wasn't all Liu Kang vs Reptile because Redd switched to Smoke for some games, but the games where he played Liu Kang should be indicative of how the matchup goes at a high level. The aftermath thread for the tournament has links to video of the matches: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?11815-Chris-G-wins-Impact-Clash-Results

Interesting, I'll check those vids out tonight, thanks.

And yeah I think Scorpion might have advantage over Reptile but it would be a very slight one. Or it's 5-5. From what I've experienced, there is no clear cut way for Reptile to approach the match. Can't zone Scorpion and up close he doesn't really blow him up.

 

[Ruuku1012]

u+4 is an average overhead. f+2 and b+2 are average pokes. b+1 has a 21 frame start up. Good luck using it outside of jumping punches. 3,1 is interruptable by low pokes. It only jails high crouching hitbox characters.

Average overheads crush lows? Average pokes are chargeable, not block-able, and cancel-able? I don't think I really understand what you consider average. Most of his useful strings are there to bait whiffs and punish while staying safe. The others are options to mix up after jumping punches. b1 obviously is one options used after jumping in. You said it yourself that his damage is the one good thing other than his force push. Those strings I mentioned are the ones that lead to that damage.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So is Baraka not considered a bad matchup for Smoke? I remember SomeCubanGuy saying it was, don't know what others opinions are on it.
Maybe he hadn't considered smoke's resets.

 

[zaf]

i just want to discuss a few things with ermac. get some answers if anything.

against jax- down poking him. Using d4 and d1 to create space. I believe ermac can use these two moves to harass and constantly poke away at jax up close to keep him at bay. I do not mean literal endless poking, or just shooting it out. Using these pokes to avoid dash punches and to create space. I do not mind zoning when i need to, or fighting up close against jax. If i am up close i find staying in a crouching position tends to make this easier.

Against mileena - lets look at ias first. this can be ducked and dash blocked. as well as on reaction i believe, with a d3. If mileena is not up close to you she is planning something, this being one of those plans. Up close i do not see her using this. also up close she does lose to u4 if she is poke happy or read, it goes over all her low pokes. her standing strings i do not believe give ermac a problem. on block this is still a good option against her as there is knock back.

I know REO said, not to mention u4 since it is week 1 material ( i think thats what was said, correct me if i am wrong). but i would like to see what mileena players, or reo even, what they think about the u4 move against just mileena this time. Not stupid u4 and f4 mix ups on people, strictly the use of u4 only, the pros and cons would be nice.

 

[Drayn0]

i just want to discuss a few things with ermac. get some answers if anything.

against jax- down poking him. Using d4 and d1 to create space. I believe ermac can use these two moves to harass and constantly poke away at jax up close to keep him at bay. I do not mean literal endless poking, or just shooting it out. Using these pokes to avoid dash punches and to create space. I do not mind zoning when i need to, or fighting up close against jax. If i am up close i find staying in a crouching position tends to make this easier.

Against mileena - lets look at ias first. this can be ducked and dash blocked. as well as on reaction i believe, with a d3. If mileena is not up close to you she is planning something, this being one of those plans. Up close i do not see her using this. also up close she does lose to u4 if she is poke happy or read, it goes over all her low pokes. her standing strings i do not believe give ermac a problem. on block this is still a good option against her as there is knock back.

I know REO said, not to mention u4 since it is week 1 material ( i think thats what was said, correct me if i am wrong). but i would like to see what mileena players, or reo even, what they think about the u4 move against just mileena this time. Not stupid u4 and f4 mix ups on people, strictly the use of u4 only, the pros and cons would be nice.

Iirc u4 is somewhere around 25 frames? You would have to anticipate mil's d4 in order for this to work. Also u4 is safe on block, but not on whiff. So guess right and get like 8% or whatever the damage is and guess wrong and lose 30% from ball roll into full punish? Not worth the risk if you ask me. Can't comment on iAs though, I dropped mil for skarlet lol.

 

[M2Dave]

Update: Smoke has been moved down from S to A+ while Cage has been moved down from A+ to A.

 

[Robotic]

Update: Smoke has been moved down from S to A+ while Cage has been moved down from A+ to A.

What changed in you and their eyes?

 

[TakeAChance]

I am just assuming they decided that a matchup was bad for him that wasn't deemed that way before.

 

[M2Dave]

Average overheads crush lows?

25 frame start up. No juggle opportunities. No special frame advantage on block. No special oki. What would you like me to call the move? I would take any overhead over Ermac's that actually juggles. Even Sonya's gives safe jumps on hit.

Can you Ermac players please let us know how you would rank the character instead of bitching about his rank for the past 6-7 pages?

What changed in you and their eyes?

Well, Cage's problems are well-documented by now. As far as Smoke goes, we believe that he has difficult, sometimes losing, match ups rush down characters, such as Cage and Jax. In my personal opinion, Smoke's gameplay is similiar to Raiden's, and I believe Raiden plays the run away game better than anybody else does.

 

[sharp_paws]

I don't see how Ermac can be zoned THAT BAD by just straight horizontal fireball characters. True, if they gain the projectile advantage full screen Ermac has to work his way in...but its just a dash and a half away to get them in tkp range and they have to stop,...

yeah this is why i don't think mileena 'obviously has the advantage'... ermac is one of the characters that easily punishes her roll & telekick/extelekick for high % combo. so that is off limits as a way for mileena to get in. a good ermac isn't going to be jumping around so you aren't going to catch him with a roll or ias... he can dash block in or duck the isais all together, she's gotta come into the TKP zone to approach him and when she does, what will she do ? d4? can't he just lift combo/push her out of that? if she tries a jip or cross him up he can d1 into combo. so she's gotta live the whole match ias'ing in the 1/3 or so of the screen that a dash & tkp can't reach... this doesn't sound like a huge advantage

 

[Metzos]

I m done convincing anyone about Ermac not being B tier. M2dave and REO you have your opinion and i have mine about these MU's. And we are "bitching" as you said cause we simply dont agree with your opinions. Thats all. Whats wrong with that ?

 

[Ninj]

This is the newest off-line tier list, according to REO, Tom Brady, and m2dave. Slight input was also provided by Perfect Legend. The characters are listed alphabetically within each tier. The letters used in the tier list represent the following match up wise.

S = 0-2 bad match ups
A+ = 3-4 bad match ups
A = 5-6 bad match ups
B = 7-8 bad match ups
C = 9-10 bad match ups
D = 11+ bad match ups

S Cyrax, Kabal, Kitana, Mileena, Raiden
A+ Freddy Krueger, Jax, Kung Lao, Rain, Reptile, Smoke, Sektor, Sonya, Sub Zero
A Cyber Sub Zero, Johnny Cage, Kano, Kenshi, Liu Kang, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Shang Tsung
B Baraka, Ermac, Noob, Sheeva
C Nightwolf, Sindel, Skarlet, Stryker
D Jade

Please comment and discuss. The tier list is based on off-line gameplay ONLY.

10/30/11 - corrected minor mistakes (thanks Subzerosmokerai)

11/02/11 - Smoke moved down from S to A+ ; Cage moved down from A+ to A

I don't understand how Skarlet is being rated at all if she's been banned at every major tournament I've ever seen? What experience is this based on?

Also, why does a C-tier character get banned at tournaments?

 

[MK Peanuts]

I don't understand how Skarlet is being rated at all if she's been banned at every major tournament I've ever seen? What experience is this based on?

Also, why does a C-tier character get banned at tournaments?

Skarlet isn't tournament banned and hasn't been for a while. There's just no one playing her.

 

[Death]

The new tier list looks great but a few things i dont agree with and i would like m2dave to tell me why. I think KL should be moved up to top tier and put Jade and sheeva in C and get rid of D tier. Also, what 0-2 bad matchups does Mileena have. I assume the 2 are KL and Ermac/ or Raiden?