The new wake up system is broken

[Vulcan Hades]

The new wake up system

Tom Brady's explanation on what was changed:

dude, its not 12 frames of invincibility lol. you have 2 more frames to input the wake up attack then you previously had and this prevents the "wtf, i did a wake up attack but it didnt come out". the 2 frames on the front end are to make sure you can get the attack out.

the 2 frames on the back end are to make sure that characters that have attacks that impact after their invincibility have a better chance to hit(sektor tele punch, scorpion and ermac teleport punch, shang soul steal,etc). even with the 2 extra frames of invincibility, you can still hit certain attacks after the invincibility frames and before the impact but now it actually takes timing.

right now wake up attacks do what they are supposed to, when you want to do one.. you actually can now, and when it comes out it WILL be invincible for 10 frames.

2 more frames to input, 2 added frames of invincibility.

I'm not sure people realize how huge that is yet but it's truly a game changer.

What it basically means is that some characters can now gtfo for free on wake up. They don't even need to spend meter to be completely invincible to meaty pokes, projectiles and specials. That alone makes rushdown characters struggle a lot more now. As a Stryker player, that wake up buff really helps a lot so I'm not really complaining. But at the same time I can see how broken some wake ups are now.

I had a Cyrax player go through all my bullets and grenades on wake up using only his air throw (normal version). That alone made it extremely difficult to zone him. This meant I couldn't get that zoning advantage and I had to stop zoning because otherwise I would just trade with net. And up close I couldn't pressure him with meaty B3 or D4, all my attacks would just whiff and Cyrax would cross over with air throw and get me cornered.

What NRS has done basically is made normal wake up attacks better than enhanced wake up attacks. Invincible for 12 frames is better than armor because you don't trade at all, you just go through all attacks.



EDIT:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I want them to remove that. I'm just realizing how much it changes the game and how easy it is now to avoid pressure without meter.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

I heard it still doesn't help Quan...

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

This worries me

 

[Hitoshura]

Mortal Kombat!!!

 

[Delriach]

I'll admit, it made me say "wow" a few times. Low attacks always used to beat Sindel cartwheel kick and now I've found myself going right through things that would have otherwise hit me. I'm not exactly complaining because she did need something like that (she has no armor moves). But yeah, I've even been able to use scream on wakeup now from time to time and it seems to be a viable strategy (if I use EX scream at least). I have to properly test it out with some locals before I can come to a conclusion though.

 

[rev0lver]

While I haven't had the same experiences as you yet, even from what you say it doesn't mean that's true across the board. Characters like Kitana are free to crossups if she tries a wakeup, and if you're dumb enough to try something else but block or crouch that's your problem. I like the wakeup system a lot better now. Characters like Johnny Cage were free to do a lot of oki pressure with how inconsistent wakeups were.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Yeah that's a good point.

I guess NRS is just trying to tone down the aggressive nature of the game. It might actually be a good thing in the end, considering how dominating rushdown characters were in the first place.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I want them to remove that. I'm just realizing how much it changes the game and how easy it is now to avoid pressure without meter.

Only time will tell if it changes things for better or worse.

 

[THTB]

The following characters have a wakeup attack whose startup frames are fully covered by the 12 frames of invincibility:

Kung Lao
Johnny Cage
Raiden
Nightwolf*
Sheeva*
Kabal**
Reptile*
Sub-Zero
Kenshi
Kano
Mileena*
Jade
Noob*
CSZ
Baraka*

* = Gained a fully-covered wakeup attack
** = Kabal is a special case, as his projectiles will become active on the very first frame of the final input

So 6 characters gained full coverage. Note, this is only taking in consideration until the first active frame. There are other factors, such as whether the character teleports and whatnot.

But yeah, it's kinda a bit much, but good in that it helps out the characters that are basically dead when they're knocked down. It's a double-edged sword.

Like revolver said, with how aggressive MK9 is, it's not a bad thing, and in fact, it actually inadvertently makes having a reset a much bigger deal.

 

[Shady]

Hey, I play Kabal and Sonya... neither character ever ends a combo with a knockdown.... Suckers!!!!!

 

[M2Dave]

I believe that NRS is trying to make the game more defensive, turtle-friendly, and ground-based. We shall see whether these changes make sense, considering half the community does not have access to the latest patch.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I believe that NRS is trying to make the game more defensive, turtle-friendly, and ground-based. We shall see whether these changes make sense, considering half the community does not have access to the latest patch.

I think you're right Dave, though it's a very lazy half-assed way of doing it. I mean, simply turning on the ability to tech throws while blocking would've made sense, but this...eh.

 

[16 Bit]

This change sucks for Kitana. She can't blow up mistimed wakeups as well and doesn't benifit much with her high wakeup attacks.

 

[colt]

it was patched in as a few different hotfix tweakable values. Where before it just was what it was. The overall goal was to tone down the offensiveness some and allow it to be tweaked if needed.

 

[M2Dave]

I think you're right Dave, though it's a very lazy half-assed way of doing it. I mean, simply turning on the ability to tech throws while blocking would've made sense, but this...eh.

In my opinion, the throwing system is fine the way it currently is. The throws in this game are no better or worse than the throws in Super Turbo, where you could not even escape them. The point is that the best players out there (i.e., CD brothers, REO, Tom, etc.) escape throws fairly well. Besides, many throws do not lead to additional mix ups, which is what keeps them from being overpowered.

 

[THTB]

Colt, have I mentioned that I love that you guys are capable of patching in hotfix-tweakable values for various things like this?

 

[16 Bit]

The throw system is awesome in this game. Never turn on that switch plz.

 

[Delriach]

This change sucks for Kitana. She can't blow up mistimed wakeups as well and doesn't benifit much with her high wakeup attacks.

Yaaaaay. Take that, Kitana!

 

[Vulcan Hades]

it was patched in as a few different hotfix tweakable values. Where before it just was what it was. The overall goal was to tone down the offensiveness some and allow it to be tweaked if needed.

That's awesome man.

I think you guys should leave it the way it is now for at least a few months. Just to see how it goes and how tournaments are affected by it. If it's too much then I guess you can just reduce the invincibility a bit. But I'm still curious to see how players will adapt to this change and how it will affect matchups/tierlist.

 

[CptXecution]

I think you're right Dave, though it's a very lazy half-assed way of doing it. I mean, simply turning on the ability to tech throws while blocking would've made sense, but this...eh.

Being able to tech throws while blocking is an awful idea. While blocking a string all you have to do is mash buttons to break that throw.

 

[Big Pampering]

goodd

I'm sorry but that +4 invincibility on wake up attacks is dumb. I'm not sure people realize how huge that is yet but it's truly a game changer and it's going to make rushdown players rage as hell.

What it basically means is that some characters can now gtfo for free on wake up. They don't even need to spend meter to be completely invincible to meaty pokes, projectiles and specials. That alone makes rushdown characters struggle a lot more now. As a Stryker player, that wake up buff really helps a lot so I'm not really complaining. But at the same time I can see how broken and braindead some wake ups are now.

I had a Cyrax player go through all my bullets and grenades on wake up using only his air throw (not even enhanced version). That alone made it extremely difficult to zone him. Something as stupid as this meant I couldn't get that zoning advantage to keep him locked down and I had to stop zoning because otherwise I would just trade with net. And up close I couldn't even pressure him with meaty B3 or D4, all my attacks would just whiff and Cyrax would cross over with air throw and get me cornered. Seriously, Cyrax is nearly untouchable on wake up now. And he can keep all his meter for his 50% combos because the guy doesn't even need armor or breakers anymore.

What NRS has done basically is made normal wake up attacks BETTER than enhanced wake up attacks. Invincible for 12 frames is better than armor because you don't trade at all, you just go through all attacks.

This completely changes the game. It means nobody can touch anyone when they're waking up. I'm sure some of you will like it at first.. But eventually you'll run into some bullshit that will make you think "man this is pretty ridiculous".

EDIT:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I want them to remove that. I'm just realizing how much it changes the game and how easy it is now to avoid pressure without meter.

Only time will tell if it changes things for better or worse.

I think this is actually a good change nrs implemented. N ow people have to deal with guessing whether they should oki or block on wakeup, which was the point of the wakeup system from the beginning. I dont think its fair for some characters to be forced to block on wakeup when charcters like kitana can poke them all day. cyrax is just a special case, that guy was buggy from the beginning.

 

[cyke_out]

I think this is actually a good change nrs implemented. N ow people have to deal with guessing whether they should oki or block on wakeup, which was the point of the wakeup system from the beginning. I dont think its fair for some characters to be forced to block on wakeup when charcters like kitana can poke them all day. cyrax is just a special case, that guy was buggy from the beginning.

I agree, I think this patch just opened more mind games for the entire cast, like the changes to the JIP, throw and the wake up system.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Cyrax basically has Raidens old teleport on wakeup but with no recovery at all and can punish most moves you try to use while hes grounded. Thats messed up.

 

[Sasuga]

It's a double edge knife. Or whatever the appropriate term is.

Being able to tech throws while blocking is an awful idea. While blocking a string all you have to do is mash buttons to break that throw.

Actually, no. If you keep the 50/50 block you would still have to guess right. Mashing throw escape doesn't work either when you don't block. But the 50/50 throw thing is stupid though...

 

[Shaylan]

As Jade user, I giggle at this.

 

[bipolar_shango]

Isn't "Truly Invinsible wake-ups" what you guys were crying for? Now you got it & i'm hearing "but" , "wow", "ridiculous"... STFU!