The Death of Zoning in Injustice: GAU

[Doombawkz]

From what i gather is yoir main point is if i cant have at least a 5-5 match up or better with every character in the game by simply tossing projectiles then zoning isnt viable.

Who do you use? Lets say Batman.
Now lets say two characters exist which are basically direct and effective counters to Batman in a way that the manner of which you played him before no longer works. To the point where you have to break old habits and use strategies that aren't nearly as efficient or effective. By the time you are done with all of that, you realize that no matter what you do to try and adapt you can't fight with only half a kit.

You are playing a character who is meant to have his zoning used liberally, and now that entire part of your character is gone. You have middle-of-the-road 50/50s and enough close range to not die. You can't just say "Well then rush them down" because you aren't made in a way to rush people down. You might as well pick characters specifically designed for it.

Adapt all you want, but you'll be in the same boat as Bane players in every MU... A constant uphill battle where most of your tools don't even matter. What he is saying is now that these two hard counters exist, theres no reason to play the characters for their zoning tools when they are made irrelevant.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

They have favorable match ups aginst t least 1/3 of the cast. How in the blue hell is that nothing.

I don't know... I am just telling you what he said in the original post. I honestly agree with him for the most part... I mean why should I pick a zoning character like Sinestro if Superman has great zoning and great rushdown. Sinestro only really excels at zoning. It seems counter intuitive.

 

[Juggs]

They are the nails in the coffin, which means that they made life even worse for zoning characters. Again, Kenshi and Freddy are top tier characters in a game that has more teleport characters than Injustice, so Batgirl and Scorpion are not my main argument.

Well why are you already essentially throwing in the towel just because things got a little difficult? You sound just like the thousands of scrubs who complain about everything everyday. Level up bitch.

 

[THTB]

ST being Turbo, yes?
What 10-0 MUs has someone overcome at a high tourney level after being directly counterpicked by "adapting"?

Okay, let's get the idea that zoners vs Scorpion is a 10-0 out of our heads. It's not.

When I said that, I was referring to bad matchups in general. There are quite a few matchups labeled 2-8 or worse that have been overcome by top ST players a number of times. Watch Kusumomdo or Pony take on some pretty lopsided matchups.

It's not impossible. Hard, but not impossible.

10-0 is when you have Ivan Ooze level advantages over another character, in which you have NO way to even get a round against a beginner (and yes, Ivan Ooze is that stupid).

 

[redeyes]

i think dave is just upset cause they added smoke like characters to injustice

 

[Mt. Mutombo]

Noone should ever win solely by zoning

This this this this this and motherfucking this.

This guy wants brain dead overwhelming zoners like morrigan and Freddy where the only thing you do is chuck shit with a slight sense of strategy. I respect zoning but you can't condemn zoning just cause it's not ridiculously overpowering.

And don't keep buying into this guy, if he keeps making these threads is for a reason. He's obviously trolling, if by some divine miracle he's not, then too bad stay salty bro.

 

[M2Dave]

I imagine there will be some thread complaining about the death of rush-downs once Zod is released with his alleged 'summon' moves.

You think that a 2013'er like Jaym will not cry if Zod can zone half as well as Deathstroke used to? Of course he will.

In fact, half the users who posted in this thread would cry about any top tier zoning character in any fighting game because they know nothing about high level gameplay.

 

[Zatoichi]

They are the nails in the coffin, which means that they made life even worse for zoning characters. Again, Kenshi and Freddy are top tier characters in a game that has more teleport characters than Injustice, so Batgirl and Scorpion are not my main argument.

And your argument being that Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Sinestro aren't that great up close vs a Rushdown character?

 

[Doombawkz]

Okay, let's get the idea that zoners vs Scorpion is a 10-0 out of our heads. It's not.

When I said that, I was referring to bad matchups in general. There are quite a few matchups labeled 2-8 or worse that have been overcome by top ST players a number of times. Watch Kusumomdo or Pony take on some pretty lopsided matchups.

It's not impossible. Hard, but not impossible.

10-0 is when you have Ivan Ooze level advantages over another character, in which you have NO way to even get a round against a beginner (and yes, Ivan Ooze is that stupid).

I'm not saying its 10-0, I was using Ganon v Olimar as an example which is a 10-0 to show that simply "adapting" doesn't always erase the existence of a hard counter. And sure, JWong beat Yipes using Cyclops. Its not something that shows "oh well JWong adapted so Cyclops doesn't get horridly mauled by Storm/Sent/Psy", Cyclops isn't going to be first pick in the draft. The win shows JWong is a great player, made some amazing reads. He isn't "adapting" cy to sweep teams consistently though, he isn't really adapting him at all. He won a match that was probably one of the hardest matches in his life, its not something he would probably voluntarily go through again.

Why play sinestro/deathstroke/cyborg when these characters exist when you can pick characters with better ability? What he is saying isn't "oh zoning is dead because of these", he is saying "There is no longer meritable reason to play these characters for their zoning capability now that it no longer matters in these 2 MUs".

You can adapt, but theres no point to it when you'll still be fighting with only half your kit which is in itself a disadvantage. If you get counter-picked, its a counter-pick for a reason. Nothing will change how hard the MU is or how much you have to work, so why pick the character who has these counter-picks? Character loyalty is about the only reason.

 

[jaym7018]

Who do you use? Lets say Batman.
Now lets say two characters exist which are basically direct and effective counters to Batman in a way that the manner of which you played him before no longer works. To the point where you have to break old habits and use strategies that aren't nearly as efficient or effective. By the time you are done with all of that, you realize that no matter what you do to try and adapt you can't fight with only half a kit.

You are playing a character who is meant to have his zoning used liberally, and now that entire part of your character is gone. You have middle-of-the-road 50/50s and enough close range to not die. You can't just say "Well then rush them down" because you aren't made in a way to rush people down. You might as well pick characters specifically designed for it.

Adapt all you want, but you'll be in the same boat as Bane players in every MU... A constant uphill battle where most of your tools don't even matter. What he is saying is now that these two hard counters exist, theres no reason to play the characters for their zoning tools when they are made irrelevant.

Except those 2 chracters rent direct counters to the chracter (this applies more to dethstroke and cyborg) they are direct counters to a style of play. Cyborg and deathstroke have options besides zoning. And again there zoning tools arent irrelevant against everyone.

 

[jaym7018]

I don't know... I am just telling you what he said in the original post. I honestly agree with him for the most part... I mean why should I pick a zoning character like Sinestro if Superman has great zoning and great rushdown. Sinestro only really excels at zoning. It seems counter intuitive.

How can superman have great zoning if zoning is dead?

 

[M2Dave]

And your argument being that Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Sinestro aren't that great up close vs a Rushdown character?

Read my first post.

Deathstroke's low shots are too unsafe.

Sinestro's fear blast is too unsafe. Impact event is too unsafe. Shackles are too unsafe.

Cyborg zones well versus some characters but cannot do so versus some others. Besides, he has no footsies, no damage, and no pressure strings to help in those match ups in which he cannot zone.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

How can superman have great zoning if zoning is dead?

Zoning isn't dead... that is just the title of the thread...

 

[Doombawkz]

Except those 2 chracters rent direct counters to the chracter (this applies more to dethstroke and cyborg) they are direct counters to a style of play. Cyborg and deathstroke have options besides zoning. And again there zoning tools arent irrelevant against everyone.

Why bother picking these characters who have to use lackluster close range options? You might as well play Killer Frost.

Theres no longer a reason to pick these characters for the sake of "zoning". They can no longer "zone", they can only try to get by with their close range tools. Try fighting a Bane without using cyborg lazers or deathstroke guns and I'm sure you'll find the endeavor much less rewarding than if you had just picked someone else without the MU disadvantage.

 

[jaym7018]

You think that a 2013'er like Jaym will not cry if Zod can zone half as well as Deathstroke used to? Of course he will.

In fact, half the users who posted in this thread would cry about any top tier zoning character in any fighting game because they know nothing about high level gameplay.

Dave you are the only one crying i never once said a thing about deathstroke or cyborg or sinestro.

 

[Celerity]

They have favorable match ups aginst t least 1/3 of the cast. How in the blue hell is that nothing.

They have favorable matchups against characters who don't matter, because those characters can't deal well with zoning...

...*gasp* Hey, wait a minute...!

 

[x0Kakashi]

This this this this this and motherfucking this.

This guy wants brain dead overwhelming zoners like morrigan and Freddy where the only thing you do is chuck shit with a slight sense of strategy. I respect zoning but you can't condemn zoning just cause it's not ridiculously overpowering.

And don't keep buying into this guy, if he keeps making these threads is for a reason. He's obviously trolling, if by some divine miracle he's not, then too bad stay salty bro.

He makes these threads so that people will agree with him and spam boons twitter like all the day 1 DS haters so that his characters get buffed again. He made 5 of these threads in like 2 days its getting kinda obvious now. He also said this the day DS got nerfed that he will spam whine and bitch untill he gets his buffs

 

[jaym7018]

Why bother picking these characters who have to use lackluster close range options? You might as well play Killer Frost.

Theres no longer a reason to pick these characters for the sake of "zoning". They can no longer "zone", they can only try to get by with their close range tools. Try fighting a Bane without using cyborg lazers or deathstroke guns and I'm sure you'll find the endeavor much less rewarding than if you had just picked someone else without the MU disadvantage.

So when facing grundy i should use killer frost instead of say hawkgirl?

 

[MorbidAltruism]

He makes these threads so that people will agree with him and spam boons twitter like all the day 1 DS haters so that his characters get buffed again. He made 5 of these threads in like 2 days its getting kinda obvious now. He also said this the day DS got nerfed that he will spam whine and bitch untill he gets his buffs

At least he is true to his word. I mean I can see where he is coming from though.

 

[Doombawkz]

He makes these threads so that people will agree with him and spam boons twitter like all the day 1 DS haters so that his characters get buffed again. He made 5 of these threads in like 2 days its getting kinda obvious now. He also said this the day DS got nerfed that he will spam whine and bitch untill he gets his buffs

I love all of this predisposition.
Do you guys know what the topic is even saying? Or do you just come in here to hate on m2Dave for the sake of him being M2Dave?
I don't agree with his views on Deathstroke, however I can see his point here and it carries a LOT of merit for people on the top line of things. When you have money on the table and have to pick between playing a character with a hard counter, or one without much of any, then you realize theres no reason to play those characters at a top level of play whom have said hard counters.

 

[Doombawkz]

So when facing grundy i should use killer frost instead of say hawkgirl?

Is Grundy a hard counter to Hawkgirl? Or are you just spouting nonsense because you still don't see the point.

When you are fighting Batman, will you pick Killer Frost or Bane? That is a closer example to be honest.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

I love all of this predisposition.
Do you guys know what the topic is even saying? Or do you just come in here to hate on m2Dave for the sake of him being M2Dave?
I don't agree with his views on Deathstroke, however I can see his point here and it carries a LOT of merit for people on the top line of things. When you have money on the table and have to pick between playing a character with a hard counter, or one without much of any, then you realize theres no reason to play those characters at a top level of play whom have said hard counters.

I know... I think people would take the topic more seriously if someone else a little more credible posted it.

 

[jaym7018]

They have favorable matchups against characters who don't matter, because those characters can't deal well with zoning...

...*gasp* Hey, wait a minute...!

Didnt you hear zoning is dead. So im gonna need new reasons why those characters dont matter.

 

[Saffa]

Do you follow major Injustice tournaments? Name me the last major a zoning character has won. This "zoning characters rule Injustice" perception exists only in your head.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDao6wY_W2vIQCapcTDgOBJXd8B62kxGrEbWXTgTCF9_wOHbKM

 

[Doombawkz]

I know... I think people would take the topic more seriously if someone else a little more credible posted it.

M2dave is credible, but he shot himself in the foot. It makes me sad that he speaks a lot of truth that a lot of people aren't seeing in this topic, and people are so hung up on the past that they aren't willing to face the future. That, in itself, the blatant ignorance towards a legitimate discussion because of our opinions on a person rather than the content of which they speak, is a worse crime than anything M2Dave could ever manage to do.