The Death of Zoning in Injustice: GAU

[MoldMan]

I could mid screen zone with stroke against day 1 scorpions

 

[M2Dave]

They have favorable matchups against characters who don't matter, because those characters can't deal well with zoning...

...*gasp* Hey, wait a minute...!

You are misinformed.

If a character is low tier in this game, he/she is most likely low tier because of lack of tools, not because of zoning. A low tier rush down character still loses to a top tier rush down character because of the differences in tools, not because of zoning.

Even pre-patch Grundy did well against Deathstroke because of walking corpse, trait (i.e., chip damage reduction), and reset. If your character has the tools, he/she can overcome zoning.

 

[MoldMan]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDao6wY_W2vIQCapcTDgOBJXd8B62kxGrEbWXTgTCF9_wOHbKM

Says the guy with aquman avatar hahha

 

[jaym7018]

Is Grundy a hard counter to Hawkgirl? Or are you just spouting nonsense because you still don't see the point.

When you are fighting Batman, will you pick Killer Frost or Bane? That is a closer example to be honest.

No hawkgirl gives grundy 0 options with her flight. But grundy can deal with frost quite well.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

M2dave is credible, but he shot himself in the foot. It makes me sad that he speaks a lot of truth that a lot of people aren't seeing in this topic, and people are so hung up on the past that they aren't willing to face the future. That, in itself, the blatant ignorance towards a legitimate discussion because of our opinions on a person rather than the content of which they speak, is a worse crime than anything M2Dave could ever manage to do.

I know I totally agree. I am just saying his credibility was attenuated recently. I mean I know he is credible in general... but no one is willing to take him serious. That is all I meant.

 

[Doombawkz]

No hawkgirl gives grundy 0 options with her flight. But grundy can deal with frost quite well.

Ok, that's nice. Is it a hard counter to Frost? Or just a MU you don't lose in totally?
Because to my knowledge, KF has no hard counters. Even with Grundy, its still a MU that's easily within the bounds of a 6-4.

These MUs are in the area of 2-8.

 

[Saffa]

Says the guy with aquman avatar hahha

LOLOL

So I have to put my main as my avatar? Does that mean people with non-Injustice character avatars get no opinions on the game?

 

[MoldMan]

LOLOL

So I have to put my main as my avatar? Does that mean people with non-Injustice character avatars get no opinions on the game?

I didnt say you were aquaman player. Given how aquaman plays i find your avatar funny.

 

[x0Kakashi]

I love all of this predisposition.
Do you guys know what the topic is even saying? Or do you just come in here to hate on m2Dave for the sake of him being M2Dave?
I don't agree with his views on Deathstroke, however I can see his point here and it carries a LOT of merit for people on the top line of things. When you have money on the table and have to pick between playing a character with a hard counter, or one without much of any, then you realize theres no reason to play those characters at a top level of play whom have said hard counters.

The only part that I agree with is that they shouldnt patch the game every 2 weeks, also I personally have nothing agaisnt M2Dave I dont even know him but the fact that hes exaggerating this much makes him look kinda dumb. Hes doing the exact same thing he despised. Hes doing the exact same thing all the online kids where doing on release day. Instead of hitting the lab and try to figure out how to counter something tough he immediately makes a thread claiming zoning is dead. Him being a ''veteran'' and a high level player people listen to this nonsense, and think to their selfs why would I bother if M2Dave a high level player couldnt get around it I wont be able to do so either. I totally understand if there is money on the table that it sucks to have your character nerfed days or weeks before majors but still that doesnt give you the right to demotivate all the new players.

 

[Celerity]

M2dave is credible, but he shot himself in the foot. It makes me sad that he speaks a lot of truth that a lot of people aren't seeing in this topic, and people are so hung up on the past that they aren't willing to face the future. That, in itself, the blatant ignorance towards a legitimate discussion because of our opinions on a person rather than the content of which they speak, is a worse crime than anything M2Dave could ever manage to do.

But you have to admit it's difficult to see the valid points amidst sensationalist headlines like "Zoning is dead". If you want to facilitate a change in people's opinions, you need to format your complaints in a constructive manner, and not throw yourself on the cross. Threads like this are just flamebait and will achieve nothing.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

But you have to admit it's difficult to see the valid points amidst sensationalist headlines like "Zoning is dead". If you want to facilitate a change in people's opinions, you need to format your complaints in a constructive manner, and not throw yourself on the cross. Threads like this are just flamebait and will achieve nothing.

His post was constructive... his title was the only flamebait.

 

[jaym7018]

Ok, that's nice. Is it a hard counter to Frost? Or just a MU you don't lose in totally?
Because to my knowledge, KF has no hard counters. Even with Grundy, its still a MU that's easily within the bounds of a 6-4.

These MUs are in the area of 2-8.

No it isnt a hard counter. But why play a 5-5 match up when i could play a 7-3 (or worse). Hawkgirl is ahard counter to grundy. Batgirl is not a hard counter to deathstroke shes a hard counter to zoning. Wait you think deathstroke vs batgirl is 2-8?

 

[Saffa]

I didnt say you were aquaman player. Given how aquaman plays i find your avatar funny.

I just like the picture. Pity the writing is too small to read. He is basically having a drunk rant about "what makes Batman so much better than him?"

 

[Doombawkz]

The only part that I agree with is that they shouldnt patch the game every 2 weeks, also I personally have nothing agaisnt M2Dave I dont even know him but the fact that hes exaggerating this much makes him look kinda dumb. Hes doing the exact same thing he despised. Hes doing the exact same thing all the online kids where doing on release day. Instead of hitting the lab and try to figure out how to counter something tough he immediately makes a thread claiming zoning is dead. Him being a ''veteran'' and a high level player people listen to this nonsense, and think to their selfs why would I bother if M2Dave a high level player couldnt get around it I wont be able to do so either. I totally understand if there is money on the table that it sucks to have your character nerfed days or weeks before majors but still that doesnt give you the right to demotivate all the new players.

You guys and your constant "adapt" talk. Hit the lab? How do you think he found out the zoning tools are irrelevant now? Guesswork?
Zoning is dead, or in the form that it was at the top level. You don't have any reason to pick a character for his "zoning" at a high level because now they all have 2 very solid and fairly difficult hard counters in Batgirl and Scorpion. You liking the character is the only reason, and that's not a good competitive mindset. I can like Bane all I want, but if I'm at the Evo finals and I have to pick between Bane and Superman/Kf/Batman, you can bet your bacon I'm going to swell my odds what all I can.

I don't have any reason to pick Bane at the top, that's solid and true. At the top level, theres not any incentive to try and play zoning since you can just get counter-picked for free and mark a loss. Adapting, yes if you make good reads and they make a lot of bad moves you can win. Otherwise you'll enjoy some of the hardest matches of your life, increase your odds of not being in the pay-out, all for the sake of assuming theres something still there when there isn't anymore. This isn't a "new players" type of topic, this is a "If you are wanting to fight the best, theres no longer reason to pick these characters over others with better options and no hard-counters"

 

[MoldMan]

I just like the picture. Pity the writing is too small to read. He is basically having a drunk rant about "what makes Batman so much better than him?"

Lols. Aquman jokes are the best

 

[Doombawkz]

No it isnt a hard counter. But why play a 5-5 match up when i could play a 7-3 (or worse). Hawkgirl is ahard counter to grundy. Batgirl is not a hard counter to deathstroke shes a hard counter to zoning. Wait you think deathstroke vs batgirl is 2-8?

Hmm... Pick a 5-5 and be locked into KF where my opponent can't hard counter me...
Or pick a 7-3 and be locked into Hawkgirl where the opponent can...


Why play Hawkgirl and be locked into a character with god awful MUs to a decent chunk of the cast when you can pick Kf and be safe?
No, batman vs Bane could be though. Point being, why pick Deathstroke/Sinestro/Cyborg when you can be counterpicked? Theres characters without those issues of 7-3/8-2 bad MUs that will leave you in a better seat for the next round.

 

[M2Dave]

This isn't a "new players" type of topic, this is a "If you are wanting to fight the best, theres no longer reason to pick these characters over others with better options and no hard-counters"

Well-said.

I speak for the vast majority of tournament players when I say that I spend lots of time and money playing this game and I want to make sure that the characters I pick are at least top 10. But 2013'ers do not understand this mentality as most only play the game casually, so I am not sure why they are even posting in this thread.

 

[MorbidAltruism]

Well-said.

I speak for the vast majority of tournament players when I say that I spend lots of time and money playing this game and I want to make sure that the characters I pick are at least top 10. But 2013'ers do not understand this mentality as most only play the game casually, so I am not sure why they are even posting in this thread.

I play the game casually and I understand that mentality.

 

[Doombawkz]

Well-said.

I speak for the vast majority of tournament players when I say that I spend lots of time and money playing this game and I want to make sure that the characters I pick are at least top 10. But 2013'ers do not understand this mentality as most only play the game casually, so I am not sure why they are even posting in this thread.

Don't assume it so openly, theres a different mentality overall. The idea of "adapt and overcome" has taken over the real picture imo. You can hit the lab, but you have to reason to pick Ganon over the Ice Climbers at the end of the day. The idea of "adapt and overcome" isn't a competitive mindset, its a mindset made to improve ones self in order to reach the competitive level. Once you are there, you see the cold truth that theres some things that you can't simply "adapt" to, nor have a reason to when you can get the money and the wins with the least amount of a chance for a loss and not getting any money at all.

 

[jaym7018]

You guys and your constant "adapt" talk. Hit the lab? How do you think he found out the zoning tools are irrelevant now? Guesswork?
Zoning is dead, or in the form that it was at the top level. You don't have any reason to pick a character for his "zoning" at a high level because now they all have 2 very solid and fairly difficult hard counters in Batgirl and Scorpion. You liking the character is the only reason, and that's not a good competitive mindset. I can like Bane all I want, but if I'm at the Evo finals and I have to pick between Bane and Superman/Kf/Batman, you can bet your bacon I'm going to swell my odds what all I can.

I don't have any reason to pick Bane at the top, that's solid and true. At the top level, theres not any incentive to try and play zoning since you can just get counter-picked for free and mark a loss. Adapting, yes if you make good reads and they make a lot of bad moves you can win. Otherwise you'll enjoy some of the hardest matches of your life, increase your odds of not being in the pay-out, all for the sake of assuming theres something still there when there isn't anymore. This isn't a "new players" type of topic, this is a "If you are wanting to fight the best, theres no longer reason to pick these characters over others with better options and no hard-counters"

By this logic there is no reason to play rushdown cause you can just get counter picked with a zoner.

 

[MoldMan]

Well-said.

I speak for the vast majority of tournament players when I say that I spend lots of time and money playing this game and I want to make sure that the characters I pick are at least top 10. But 2013'ers do not understand this mentality as most only play the game casually, so I am not sure why they are even posting in this thread.

Dude supes is all you need...

 

[Celerity]

Hmm... Pick a 5-5 and be locked into KF where my opponent can't hard counter me...
Or pick a 7-3 and be locked into Hawkgirl where the opponent can...


Why play Hawkgirl and be locked into a character with god awful MUs to a decent chunk of the cast when you can pick Kf and be safe?
No, batman vs Bane could be though. Point being, why pick Deathstroke/Sinestro/Cyborg when you can be counterpicked? Theres characters without those issues of 7-3/8-2 bad MUs that will leave you in a better seat for the next round.

I feel like this type of argument is stupid, and can be applied to every fighting game, ever. You're basically saying there's no reason not to always play the absolute best character in the game. Fine, then, play the best character. That's up to you. There will always be a best character and a worst character, there will always be good matchups and bad matchups. What makes Injustice so unique in this regard?

 

[MorbidAltruism]

I feel like this type of argument is stupid, and can be applied to every fighting game, ever. You're basically saying there's no reason not to always play the absolute best character in the game. Fine, then, play the best character. That's up to you. There will always be a best character and a worst character, there will always be good matchups and bad matchups. What makes Injustice so unique in this regard?

How is that argument stupid? It seems pretty logical.

 

[x0Kakashi]

You guys and your constant "adapt" talk. Hit the lab? How do you think he found out the zoning tools are irrelevant now? Guesswork?
Zoning is dead, or in the form that it was at the top level. You don't have any reason to pick a character for his "zoning" at a high level because now they all have 2 very solid and fairly difficult hard counters in Batgirl and Scorpion. You liking the character is the only reason, and that's not a good competitive mindset. I can like Bane all I want, but if I'm at the Evo finals and I have to pick between Bane and Superman/Kf/Batman, you can bet your bacon I'm going to swell my odds what all I can.

I don't have any reason to pick Bane at the top, that's solid and true. At the top level, theres not any incentive to try and play zoning since you can just get counter-picked for free and mark a loss. Adapting, yes if you make good reads and they make a lot of bad moves you can win. Otherwise you'll enjoy some of the hardest matches of your life, increase your odds of not being in the pay-out, all for the sake of assuming theres something still there when there isn't anymore. This isn't a "new players" type of topic, this is a "If you are wanting to fight the best, theres no longer reason to pick these characters over others with better options and no hard-counters"

''You guys and your constant adapt talk'' I think it was the people who were playing zoning characters that told the rest to adapt now its coming right back at them. Zoning is dead ? I dont think so, look at Aris, Slipps, woundcowboy and legend for example they all play zoning characters and they all place top 8 at locals/majors. How are they doing it ? Are they somehow superior ? I dont think so, its just that they are willing to adapt their playstyle a bit and work with the tools they are given. You cant just sit fullscreen no more and you have to space correctly and make good reads if you wanna zone properly. That being said zoning isnt the same as it was on release day I agree, and it did take a punch to the face I agree but going as far as saying ''Zoning is dead'' noway.

 

[Doombawkz]

I feel like this type of argument is stupid, and can be applied to every fighting game, ever. You're basically saying there's no reason not to always play the absolute best character in the game. Fine, then, play the best character. That's up to you. There will always be a best character and a worst character, there will always be good matchups and bad matchups. What makes Injustice so unique in this regard?

The addition of new characters, namely. You had a top set, and now two new people who change that set exist. And its not a stupid argument, if you have to choose to win 10k at Evo and be a low-tier hero, no opponent is going to respect you for picking that low tier. They are going to thank you for the free win and walk away with your money. Its not always pretty, but its the truth. Don't compete if you don't want to win, and the best way to win is to give yourself the best chanses.

There is no reason not to pick the best character in the game outside of favoritism. I play Bane, I main Bane. I can tell you firsthand that I am confident in Bane but at Evo top 32 I wouldn't be using him because all of that character love isn't going to cover my travel costs. Players aren't paid to play, they have to earn their keep. I'd rather sell out to Superman and cover my travel costs than be $300 in the hole to show off my b.23 resets with Bane.