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Tekken 7 General Discussion Thread - OP Updated With All Tekken Info

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Can you give me an example of a character in the game with a super threatening tool?

Depends. Fengs Shoulder. What's-her fucks-f2. Gigas's 1,2 punish and command throw. Steve's b1. Ling's aop stance in general. King the entire character. Drag the entire character. Mishimas ewgf.

Just depends on the definition of super threatening I guess. To me it's moves that help define how that character is used, and why. But take Gigas's 1,2.. it's just a jab string that does 31 or 32 damage. Not a launcher and it's not + a billion on block or anything.. but it's probably the best 10f block punish in the game. It's damage is huge for it's purpose, the second hit knocks the opponent a mile away with s ton of time to run after and set up Oki and at the wall IT SPLATS, making anything -10 at the wall lead to about 60 damage. So it's a jobber, but one that really helps define how he plays and what he can do.

Just my .02
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Still tooling around with characters trying to find who really grabs me.

Steve and Gigas both fit. Gigas being kind of amazing. So direct but still interestingly deep and fun. Steve is fun as hell but can be frustrating - so much going on, so many trucks and such required. But he's still my primary character.

Josie is a lot of fun too. Her tools are fun to use, but she's definitely not as easy to get results with, at least for me. She flows really well and has a smooth feel to get play that I like. Her combos are fun to do too.

Bryan.. sigh. I really really really wanted to like Bryan but he just won't click for me. He feels awkward and odd. I don't know why, he just doesn't mesh.

Feng is amazing.

Gigas and Steve are probably who I'll go with, but I'm not ruling out Feng or Josie just yet.
 

Israel

Apprentice
Depends. Fengs Shoulder. What's-her fucks-f2. Gigas's 1,2 punish and command throw. Steve's b1. Ling's aop stance in general. King the entire character. Drag the entire character. Mishimas ewgf.

Just depends on the definition of super threatening I guess. To me it's moves that help define how that character is used, and why. But take Gigas's 1,2.. it's just a jab string that does 31 or 32 damage. Not a launcher and it's not + a billion on block or anything.. but it's probably the best 10f block punish in the game. It's damage is huge for it's purpose, the second hit knocks the opponent a mile away with s ton of time to run after and set up Oki and at the wall IT SPLATS, making anything -10 at the wall lead to about 60 damage. So it's a jobber, but one that really helps define how he plays and what he can do.

Just my .02
No i understand.
I just wanted to ask Wang, cuz he said Jin doesnt have a super threatening move. So i wanted to see what he thought.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hmmm, it appears you are knew to the game, so many things are unkown to you, so let me give you some clear answers.

Jin is able to abuse f4..f against me. Even if i ss it i dont have a fast mid move to punish him in time , and i cant use electric because he will recover too fast (and is also considered ducking at times). And at any time he can just press 1 (or anything) to interrupt my option to apply offense. I just have to eat that move on block all day but if i were to ss that too much, then here comes the b4, which is fast and recovers almost instantly.
Jin f4~zen is -1 on block, but the fastest followup is 13 frame, meaning you can interrupt with anything that is i13 or faster. He can cancel to make it safe but that's him being at -6 after.

Kazuya has df2 which is i13 its a CH launcher though its not safe its a homing meaning it tracks both sides and its a mid no one can crush that.
And if you are having troubles dealing with F4~zen, and don't want to interrupt, just sidewalk right, the best launcher and the best mid out of f4~zen have no track, you can also duck and react to a mid just as easy.

About b4 out of Zen? Jin doesn't have such a thing, i think you mean 4, which is super slow super reactable, and now in T7 is launch punishable if you block it because they added an blockstun animation to it, its at the very least -31 on block and you should be able to launch that with any character in the game. But if you really mean Jin b4, then your opponent is canceling Zen and then apply an i17 move, which none of those would work anyway, if you just df2 them which is the best counter to apply against a Jin that tries to do too much.

Idk y his ff3 isnt -9, but instead its less and even can be continued, cuz its a string.
Jin's ff3 is +1 on block, i23 and doesn't have range at all, standard mishimas ff3 not only is much more faster like i20 or so, covers much range, forces crouch and its +3 on block, fail to see the logic here.
On top of it, 123 is now 0 on block, and has a 10f gap where you can jab Jin out of each options.
You complaining about nerfing ff3 because its a string its a clear sign that you just didn't really lab.

db4 gives him launch on ch for some reason and his wr3 comes out instantly and is a screw attack.
Kazuya's ws1, 2 is i13, which can indeed launch punish any Jin blocked low, this includes db4, d3, d4, ANY LOW that jin has, which are all -13 at best, this is pretty much Kazuya's specialty jin can't even attack low in this MU without being at risk.
Jin ws3 is i16 just as his f4, but it lack range, the fastest move in tekken all start at 10 frames, i think i know why its hitting you so much, will make sure to explain down in the topic.

The best parry in the game and the infamous ff2.
Sure, but the best parry in the game ONLY becomes the best parry in the game if you as an attacker get too predictable with your offense, patterns and such, Jin has that parry because he is able to avoid things no other character in the game can, but he still needs to see it happen, make an insane correct guess, press the code on the right time and then apply it, it doesn't magically makes him super dumb, on top of it, Jin parry also doesn't launch everything it parries, it depends on how much recovery those moves have, so mostly the juicy stuff, its pretty much a tool to destroy people who tries to do too much without being too conservative.

FF2 is a straight line mid, but the reason you're getting hit by this its not because the move is too good, you are having a hard time using the 3D environment to avoid moves in tekken, i will cut you some slack into this because its not easy to do, but it requires practicing an time investing, if you don't learn how to move in 3D environment mishimas and characters a like (Jin, Bryan, Nina, kazumi, Paul, Claudio, steve, dragunov, feng etc) are all going to kill you if you don't.

Those are just half his options. I dont need to state kazuya's speed or properties on the same moves/inputs cuz we already know they're inferior.
I already said before, Jin has tools for every specific situation, that's how he is designed, his gameplan its a combination the most suitable moves coming together against a certain player not the character itself, speed? kazuya is much more oppressive than Jin, he is just harder.
I think you being new to the game, you made a wrong decision picking Kazuya as the first character to learn, he is pretty much the highest skill ceiling required to play in the game, and it takes YEARS to be good with Kazuya, movement is key part of his movement, something i'm pretty sure you don't have it, reason why i don't think you should start the game with him. comparing moves with same speed and proprieties its not a thing, they are all different, the only thing Jin and Kazuya have almost in common is the electric, but even that is different because Jin's EWHF tracks to the right and its always i14, while Kazuya's EWGF tracks to the left and has greater pushback than Jin's and it can be made i13.

Those crazy buffs jin got in the game made him excell even further on the list. Only thing kaz has over him is the ability to punish lows.
Crazy buffs? The most notable buff Jin has in T7 is the ability to do combos as everybody else in the game, something he always lacked past games, so in this game, if you over extend yourself against jin and he finds an opening he will hit you so hard that you will long into TYM to complain with Eddy Wang.
Most notably, a natural hit launcher EWHF, ability to wall carry for any of his launchers, and he got heavily nerfed on many strings and buttons, but he got some better ones too. I love this Jin now i feel like every character in the game when i play him.

But i main kazuya, and i wish i had the same options and speed as jin. Any char with an electric and can use normal speed yet, powerful pokes as well are very good characters. Hence, why Heiachi is THE MAN. And why DJ is a problem too.
Your problem is being new to the game, as i said before but this time i will cover Kazuya for you, Kazuya is a character that requires you to be a lab monster, different from Heihachi who is the offense power house, which has a lot of CH moves, best 0 range pokes on top of being a mishima. Devil Jin who has a balance between offense and defense and has even better pokes than hehachi, Kazuya doesn't have any of those, that doesn't mean he is weaker, he is just the most defensive character in the game.

The cornerstone of mastering kazuya are:
Execution, his electric its his main pressure tool, you need to be able to use that, if he has a hole in his game, he dies.
Movement, you need to be able to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, pretty sure you don't have that
in deck otherwise you wouldn't be complaining as much
50-50s, kazuya needs to use 50-50s whenever he can to enforce easy wins, but to do that you need to be
able to learn movement first, meaning wavedash mixups, canceling with CD4, ff3 and iws1, 2 or iws2, just a few examples.

His strongest tools are his 50-50s ones, ff3, cd4, EWHF, super hard to react to his 50-50, the rest its attached to your capacity of recognizing how unsafe and how to deal with certain moves in the game and punishing accordingly, that is why kazuya has the best punishes in the game, 13f laucher high or mid

Kazuya is one of the hardest characters to play, you need to know the holes of your opponent just as jin, but those are tools you can figure out to beat, you just didn't lab.


Jin is somewhat similar, he doesn't have the best tools he just has tools for all possible situations
but none of those tools are going to carry him because they can be easy to deal if you get used to it, not kazuya, his 50-50 game is always going to be threatening because you can't react to both options.

here, have a learn
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
Still tooling around with characters trying to find who really grabs me.

Steve and Gigas both fit. Gigas being kind of amazing. So direct but still interestingly deep and fun. Steve is fun as hell but can be frustrating - so much going on, so many trucks and such required. But he's still my primary character.

Josie is a lot of fun too. Her tools are fun to use, but she's definitely not as easy to get results with, at least for me. She flows really well and has a smooth feel to get play that I like. Her combos are fun to do too.

Bryan.. sigh. I really really really wanted to like Bryan but he just won't click for me. He feels awkward and odd. I don't know why, he just doesn't mesh.

Feng is amazing.

Gigas and Steve are probably who I'll go with, but I'm not ruling out Feng or Josie just yet.
Bryan's kit is about winning the neutral and catching the opponent at awkward times by doing things that are unorthodox and off-rhytm, such as not enforcing a small frame advantage, waiting a little bit, then attacking. His poking game doesn't have any real flow when landing attacks that leave the opponent standing, if that's what you are looking for but once you get used to it it's really not that big of a deal.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
Hmmm, it appears you are knew to the game, so many things are unkown to you, so let me give you some clear answers.


Jin f4~zen is -1 on block, but the fastest followup is 13 frame, meaning you can interrupt with anything that is i13 or faster. He can cancel to make it safe but that's him being at -6 after.

Kazuya has df2 which is i13 its a CH launcher though its not safe its a homing meaning it tracks both sides and its a mid no one can crush that.
And if you are having troubles dealing with F4~zen, and don't want to interrupt, just sidewalk right, the best launcher and the best mid out of f4~zen have no track, you can also duck and react to a mid just as easy.

About b4 out of Zen? Jin doesn't have such a thing, i think you mean 4, which is super slow super reactable, and now in T7 is launch punishable if you block it because they added an blockstun animation to it, its at the very least -31 on block and you should be able to launch that with any character in the game. But if you really mean Jin b4, then your opponent is canceling Zen and then apply an i17 move, which none of those would work anyway, if you just df2 them which is the best counter to apply against a Jin that tries to do too much.


Jin's ff3 is +1 on block, i23 and doesn't have range at all, standard mishimas ff3 not only is much more faster like i20 or so, covers much range, forces crouch and its +3 on block, fail to see the logic here.
On top of it, 123 is now 0 on block, and has a 10f gap where you can jab Jin out of each options.
You complaining about nerfing ff3 because its a string its a clear sign that you just didn't really lab.


Kazuya's ws1, 2 is i13, which can indeed launch punish any Jin blocked low, this includes db4, d3, d4, ANY LOW that jin has, which are all -13 at best, this is pretty much Kazuya's specialty jin can't even attack low in this MU without being at risk.
Jin ws3 is i16 just as his f4, but it lack range, the fastest move in tekken all start at 10 frames, i think i know why its hitting you so much, will make sure to explain down in the topic.


Sure, but the best parry in the game ONLY becomes the best parry in the game if you as an attacker get too predictable with your offense, patterns and such, Jin has that parry because he is able to avoid things no other character in the game can, but he still needs to see it happen, make an insane correct guess, press the code on the right time and then apply it, it doesn't magically makes him super dumb, on top of it, Jin parry also doesn't launch everything it parries, it depends on how much recovery those moves have, so mostly the juicy stuff, its pretty much a tool to destroy people who tries to do too much without being too conservative.

FF2 is a straight line mid, but the reason you're getting hit by this its not because the move is too good, you are having a hard time using the 3D environment to avoid moves in tekken, i will cut you some slack into this because its not easy to do, but it requires practicing an time investing, if you don't learn how to move in 3D environment mishimas and characters a like (Jin, Bryan, Nina, kazumi, Paul, Claudio, steve, dragunov, feng etc) are all going to kill you if you don't.


I already said before, Jin has tools for every specific situation, that's how he is designed, his gameplan its a combination the most suitable moves coming together against a certain player not the character itself, speed? kazuya is much more oppressive than Jin, he is just harder.
I think you being new to the game, you made a wrong decision picking Kazuya as the first character to learn, he is pretty much the highest skill ceiling required to play in the game, and it takes YEARS to be good with Kazuya, movement is key part of his movement, something i'm pretty sure you don't have it, reason why i don't think you should start the game with him. comparing moves with same speed and proprieties its not a thing, they are all different, the only thing Jin and Kazuya have almost in common is the electric, but even that is different because Jin's EWHF tracks to the right and its always i14, while Kazuya's EWGF tracks to the left and has greater pushback than Jin's and it can be made i13.


Crazy buffs? The most notable buff Jin has in T7 is the ability to do combos as everybody else in the game, something he always lacked past games, so in this game, if you over extend yourself against jin and he finds an opening he will hit you so hard that you will long into TYM to complain with Eddy Wang.
Most notably, a natural hit launcher EWHF, ability to wall carry for any of his launchers, and he got heavily nerfed on many strings and buttons, but he got some better ones too. I love this Jin now i feel like every character in the game when i play him.


Your problem is being new to the game, as i said before but this time i will cover Kazuya for you, Kazuya is a character that requires you to be a lab monster, different from Heihachi who is the offense power house, which has a lot of CH moves, best 0 range pokes on top of being a mishima. Devil Jin who has a balance between offense and defense and has even better pokes than hehachi, Kazuya doesn't have any of those, that doesn't mean he is weaker, he is just the most defensive character in the game.

The cornerstone of mastering kazuya are:
Execution, his electric its his main pressure tool, you need to be able to use that, if he has a hole in his game, he dies.
Movement, you need to be able to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, pretty sure you don't have that
in deck otherwise you wouldn't be complaining as much
50-50s, kazuya needs to use 50-50s whenever he can to enforce easy wins, but to do that you need to be
able to learn movement first, meaning wavedash mixups, canceling with CD4, ff3 and iws1, 2 or iws2, just a few examples.

His strongest tools are his 50-50s ones, ff3, cd4, EWHF, super hard to react to his 50-50, the rest its attached to your capacity of recognizing how unsafe and how to deal with certain moves in the game and punishing accordingly, that is why kazuya has the best punishes in the game, 13f laucher high or mid

Kazuya is one of the hardest characters to play, you need to know the holes of your opponent just as jin, but those are tools you can figure out to beat, you just didn't lab.


Jin is somewhat similar, he doesn't have the best tools he just has tools for all possible situations
but none of those tools are going to carry him because they can be easy to deal if you get used to it, not kazuya, his 50-50 game is always going to be threatening because you can't react to both options.

here, have a learn
@Israel this is a great discription of both characters. The thing with kaz is the skill cealing is that high i dont believe there is a true kaz master. If you watch the best kaz players they are very different in play style. The key to a good kaz player is knowledge , exicution, pacience and movement. He is the fundamental character of tekken. This is no way trying to discourage you playing him but you are talking about years of practice to become compitent. He has all the answers but they are not easy. I believe if he is played perfectly which will never happen whilst played by a human he is the best character in the game. Jin is a mad pain in the ass but eddy has given you some advice to improve against him. If you stick with him it is a slow way to advance but it is very hard to plateau if you are willing to lab and continueto learn. Also @Eddy Wang great write up.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Bryan's kit is about winning the neutral and catching the opponent at awkward times by doing things that are unorthodox and off-rhytm, such as not enforcing a small frame advantage, waiting a little bit, then attacking. His poking game doesn't have any real flow when landing attacks that leave the opponent standing, if that's what you are looking for but once you get used to it it's really not that big of a deal.
Yeah , I could probably get used to him, I'm sure I could really, but there are other characters I more naturally click with. I may revisit him someday but for now hes going to go into the back-burner. I need to get some real games as Josie and see how I like her in a real environment... But I have more lab time to invest before I can comfortably land her pickups and and have an idea how to flow with her offense.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
Yeah , I could probably get used to him, I'm sure I could really, but there are other characters I more naturally click with. I may revisit him someday but for now hes going to go into the back-burner. I need to get some real games as Josie and see how I like her in a real environment... But I have more lab time to invest before I can comfortably land her pickups and and have an idea how to flow with her offense.
i see tou do this all the time so im going to ask. Everybody has a preferred play style. What is yours?
 

NHDR

Kombatant
I have no clue how to "really" play Tekken, apart from using all the spacing skills I learned playing against elite competition in SF over the years. I feel lost but I'm still enjoying it greatly.

Playing some Akuma, Paul, and Kazuya. Anyone I can use that's extremely easy to play? Kazuya is obviously hard, I've learned that very early on.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I have no clue how to "really" play Tekken, apart from using all the spacing skills I learned playing against elite competition in SF over the years. I feel lost but I'm still enjoying it greatly.

Playing some Akuma, Paul, and Kazuya. Anyone I can use that's extremely easy to play? Kazuya is obviously hard, I've learned that very early on.
Best way to get used to it is to go in training mode, and enable the recovery mode on. This mode will make your char blue, thus helping you about when you can input the next move. Unlike SF, you'll need to relax a bit. Another thing you need to know is the Korean Dash. Korean Dash will help you with your spacing skills.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
I have no clue how to "really" play Tekken, apart from using all the spacing skills I learned playing against elite competition in SF over the years. I feel lost but I'm still enjoying it greatly.

Playing some Akuma, Paul, and Kazuya. Anyone I can use that's extremely easy to play? Kazuya is obviously hard, I've learned that very early on.
Considering all those characters are generally unsafe and somewhat lacking in pokes I'd look into picking up Shaheen or Katarina to have a character who can pile on some decent pressure without having to wade through tons of frame data and stance transition gimmicks and what not.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Or is cursed to wander from FG to FG in search of finding the best game that he's good.

Nah. Not wandering around looking for a game I'm magically good at. I just like fighting games and I think its fun to look in to new games. I still play Injustice - just considering picking up Tekken as well.

@NaCl man - I typically like a mixed play style, I like to be able to play defensively and slow things down, keep people out or kind of "at bay" then when I feel like I have an opening, or land something or whatever, go in and run my offense, using the momentum to pressure.. but I do tend to favor offense over defense. I like my ranged tools to slow things down, but not to zone out, so much as find a way in and if I start to get overwhelmed, kind of back up and reset the situation. I usually favor mobility and speed as well. Rarely a fanb of slow/heavy characters. I tend to shy away from characters with high execution curves. Learning curves are fine, but technical execution is a weak point and I just dont like characters that require it.

I usually like characters that get good mileage out of pokes and such, but still have a decent combo game. Hybrid characters are *usually* who I end up enjoying the most in games. In SFV I really enjoyed playing Akuma and Karin (Karin isnt super Hybrid, but she does play a keep-away/space controlled neutral until she gets rolling on offense). In Inj2 I main Beetle with a side of Hellboy - but enjoy several characters there, WoWo being a particular favorite. In SFIV I mained Decapre, but played a reasonably decent Ryu and Seth and enjoyed - but was utterly terrible at - Gen.

Any suggestions you all have are welcome.

Im not really having a crisis in Tekken with a main (yet, lol) because I dunno if I'm even going to really "play" the game. The commitment is pretty huge and I still really like Injustice, and SFV AE isnt that far off and depending on who's added when AE is released (I heard AE was coming with a character or two) and what changes are made to the game in general, I may try V out again.. Two games is more than enough, three is WAY too many for me.. But a lot about Tekken fascinates me. Its an INCREDIBLY brilliant game, but the level of effort required is something I fully understand and appreciate, but am unsure about committing to. I feel like if I DO find a character that just realllly grabs me, I could love this game, or maybe a good group of people to play with regularly. I looked in to playing it a while ago, but was juggling other games and blah blah and it fell by the wayside. Oddly, what got me looking back into the game is that I wanted a game on PC I could play, because my niece and my GF tend to spend a lot of time on my PS4, so i was looking for a game to play when I couldnt play Inj (i wont buy the PC version for several reasons) and figured what the hell, I'll try Tekken out again..

Since then Ive just been compiling notes and sort of going through the cast, bit by bit, seeing who grabs me and who doesnt. I'm not in a huge hurry to pick a main or anything, I dont have a time limit and since I havent decided if Im going to really 'play' the game yet, I dont feel pressed to pick a character and start learning all the ins and outs. Its kind of nice to not have the self-imposed pressure of thinking I have to find a main ASAP and get to playing right away, and just know I can kind of tool around the cast until I find someone that just grabs me.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Question for you guys.. Why is Chloe considered bad? I know I read she's gimmicky, but looking at some of her stuff, I dunno that she has to be right? her df1 is just nutso. amazing jab string/extensions with the high/mid/mid stuff that's safe, or going into the 1+2 thats a high but like -2, off mid mix strings.. it seems like her poke game would be stifling off that sort of stuff, and she has lows she can make safe doesnt she? I dont understand her transitions very well yet, but like the dance stance and such can be canceled into a safe mid, not to mention her homing, safe, 90+ damage launcher and california roll stuff.. Though it looks like, at least some characters have an OS against that? Watching JDCR do some kind of side step thing on Drag that's OSing the empty roll and the mid launcher.

Shrug. Just wondering. She seems to have a pretty damn good set of pokes and pressure options, with lows that SEEM to be quite serviceable and while she has some risky stuff, it seems like the pay off is really big. Is that the issue? She has to take risks to get good damage? I havent gone through her stuff fully yet, but does she have good SAFE launch options?

I may be totally wrong on evertything Ive said, my understanding is shitty at best, just some ideas is all.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
Question for you guys.. Why is Chloe considered bad? I know I read she's gimmicky, but looking at some of her stuff, I dunno that she has to be right? her df1 is just nutso. amazing jab string/extensions with the high/mid/mid stuff that's safe, or going into the 1+2 thats a high but like -2, off mid mix strings.. it seems like her poke game would be stifling off that sort of stuff, and she has lows she can make safe doesnt she? I dont understand her transitions very well yet, but like the dance stance and such can be canceled into a safe mid, not to mention her homing, safe, 90+ damage launcher and california roll stuff.. Though it looks like, at least some characters have an OS against that? Watching JDCR do some kind of side step thing on Drag that's OSing the empty roll and the mid launcher.

Shrug. Just wondering. She seems to have a pretty damn good set of pokes and pressure options, with lows that SEEM to be quite serviceable and while she has some risky stuff, it seems like the pay off is really big. Is that the issue? She has to take risks to get good damage? I havent gone through her stuff fully yet, but does she have good SAFE launch options?

I may be totally wrong on evertything Ive said, my understanding is shitty at best, just some ideas is all.
When people say bad in tekken it's not like vanilla black Adam compared to swamp thing it's more like cat woman compared to redhood or something.
 

Israel

Apprentice
Lol i dont need a description. Im not new. I know the mu and everything both char's do. And when i said b4, i meant his high homing mid, which is standing 4, my mistake. Long story short, Jin is better than kaz imo in this game. I just try to get the opinion of all jin players who speak as if Jin isnt top or asking for more to him in addition to what he already has.

In this case @Eddy, u wanted his b21 to work guarenteed after landing ch 4. Which imo doesnt need to happen. getting the d2 is enough. He has too many ways of juggling on both normal hit and ch.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
I have no clue how to "really" play Tekken, apart from using all the spacing skills I learned playing against elite competition in SF over the years. I feel lost but I'm still enjoying it greatly.

Playing some Akuma, Paul, and Kazuya. Anyone I can use that's extremely easy to play? Kazuya is obviously hard, I've learned that very early on.
Yeah man shaheen is super fun and easy to play with great easy damage plus wall carry. Easy execution except slide might take you a minute to get down but it's not bad at all. He does not have shit for + on block moves except standing 1, snk~1 and the second hit of his rage drive. He does have possibly top 3 hop kick which is always cheesy.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
I think that you mean about bad MUs, or is it my idea?
I don't really consider tekken to be a very matchup heavy game or atleast at the level 90% of us play it at. So maybe comparing it to injustice which is mu centric was not the best comparison. Sure there is some of the cast that don't get as much when trying to punish weird stuff like relaxed state and i13 lows.

I was just talking about the perceived gap in strength from the top tier to the bottom of the barrel.
 

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
Kazuya has df2 which is i13 its a CH launcher though its not safe its a homing meaning it tracks both sides and its a mid no one can crush that.
And if you are having troubles dealing with F4~zen, and don't want to interrupt, just sidewalk right, the best launcher and the best mid out of f4~zen have no track, you can also duck and react to a mid just as easy.
Its actually a i14 frame mid ^^


Lol i dont need a description. Im not new. I know the mu and everything both char's do. And when i said b4, i meant his high homing mid, which is standing 4, my mistake. Long story short, Jin is better than kaz imo in this game. I just try to get the opinion of all jin players who speak as if Jin isnt top or asking for more to him in addition to what he already has.

In this case @Eddy, u wanted his b21 to work guarenteed after landing ch 4. Which imo doesnt need to happen. getting the d2 is enough. He has too many ways of juggling on both normal hit and ch.
Yes, Jin is damn strong and definitely easier to play than Kazuya but Wang has definitely a good point especially when it comes to Kazuya having an answer to everything Jin has to offer. I play Kazuya for 8 years now, in case that it should matter, and I can definitely say that Kazuya and Jin should be even. Jin maybe has 10000000 counter launchers and a imo unnecessary hopkick. Those tools are still nothing that would outmatch Kazuya somehow.
As Wang said Kazuya is able to interrupt his pressure as well as full combo punish Jins low pokes, where most chars would get a mere knockdown or even wallsplat move (for instance law's ws 1,2). Jin on the other hand has an easier time to poke Kazuya and also punish his lows.

The overwhelming part about that matchup is just as I mentioned above that JIn is just easier to play than kazuya but yet harder then most chars. Where Kazuya has to put lots of work in Jin can just go around that. An example would be his can can. When an opponent is -15 Kazuya is forced to ewgf punish the opponent ( which is not that hard when you practice). Jin However does not necessarily rely on Ewhf. He can just go for a hopkick or can can for decent damage.
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I don't really consider tekken to be a very matchup heavy game or atleast at the level 90% of us play it at. So maybe comparing it to injustice which is mu centric was not the best comparison. Sure there is some of the cast that don't get as much when trying to punish weird stuff like relaxed state and i13 lows.

I was just talking about the perceived gap in strength from the top tier to the bottom of the barrel.
Originally, I had this same idea about the difference in power, but due of your statement above I felt upon this bad mu theory. I guess that you mean she's weak compared to the other beasts.
 

Sutter Pain

Your mothers main.
Originally, I had this same idea about the difference in power, but due of your statement above I felt upon this bad mu theory. I guess that you mean she's weak compared to the other beasts.
Weaker yes but not like comparing the top tier to the bottom tier of other games.