Swamp Thing Matchup Discussion Thread

[1man3letters]

We didn't have one of these in the forum so just thought id throw one up.

so discuss away

 

[ChoseDeath]

Zoners obviously suck to play against, to the point I'm just pulling out Black Adam. But I am getting absolutely trucked by Harley Quinn. Everytime I get knocked down it's just a mauling because that damn cartwheel or tantrum stance shit completely dodges any grabs. Gotta lab up how to get out of her pressure but I don't play her so I guess I have to learn her first, lol. I'd love help if anyone knows.

 

[TheDylbot]

TBH I'm doing quite well with swampy, probably due to underrepresentation in my area - the more that people start to understand the match up, the more likely I think he will get bodied. That being said:

I am finding alot of success vs. Aquaman; FTD can be blown up by vine grab when read fast enough and can cause him to be scared to throw it out. Trident rush can be read in the corner, and you can go HAM on him for that. Low profile his trident toss with bf3 and you can get a full combo from mid range.

Also finding that swampy hard bodies grodd the more I play this MU, poor grodd gets telegraphed easily on the jump in and it's db2 all day, occassionally an up air grab - keeps him on the ground where you want him.

I would say that superman MU sucks balls, air lasers all day, you risk going in MB roll style and sometimes it'll pay off. If he catches you though it's RIP.

And as the post above me, zoners are the worst - he has no real answer for it when all his tools hit high for some weird reason, and the log won't reach them full screen

My 2 cents

 

[TheDylbot]

Small update, cheetah MU feels 5-5, she can put you in the blender up close and wake up can be a big risk if she knows it's coming, but you can blow up her dive like grodd with db2 and keep her at mid range if you play your cards right.

Flash also feels 5-5, he can struggle to get in but will mow you down if he makes it through your mid screen presence (recommend db1 to check his stance charge) and his corner pressure is nasty. Keep him at mid range if you can.

Deadshot... Fk that guy. He 10-0's us, no questions asked. Pick Black Adam for this MU.

 

[TheDylbot]

Batman: 4-6, maybe 3-7 even. He has too many tools to knock us around with, even though he wants to be in your face he can lame it out for the life lead. His strings and mix ups are faster than ours. If you're lucky you'll corner him, block low for wake up slide and go to town. Pretty confident we lose this though.

Scarecrow: 5-5, its a battle for mid screen control, but you have to be more patient. Block low, watch his f133 range and overhead, capitalise on whiffs with f23 mix ups and full combo punish him up close.

Black canary 6-4/5-5: I feel we win this because of the mid screen control. Watch her trait, if its full she's gonna pop it from full screen to get in on you, so always play this one defensively and I think we take it, and really try to make sure she doesn't get in close on you

 

[Swoops]

Toughest match ups I've found is probably Catwoman. Her JI2 is basically ours but better and she can be on top of us at any time which is pretty sad for Swampers. Best hope is she mis-spaces it so you get a AA 1 or low profile D3.

Deadshot and probably Fate are tough but seem doable.

I've found he has pretty poor punish options up close for characters with slightly negative pressure. Things like fate ankh -8 or stuff that's around -10 but pushes you out of 1 or D2 range is annoying. Best to go for a green thumb punish or start B2/F2 pressure. If they are close and slightly negative D2 > green thumb is a pretty great tool.

He slightly makes up for that by having great midscreen/75% screen punishes with vine grab and F2. So far he gets hard punishes on:

Black Magic
Lightning Strike (if Black Adam barely whiffs this after you jump it's a free punish)
Blood Nado
Omega Beam
Tentacle Strike (half-ish screen)
Trident (I think lol)
WW shield (you can also whiff punish air shield but it's difficult. Might be better to just log or clone)
Supes air laser (DB3)
Harley air pistol
Harley MB air pistol(*!! found this one the other day, MB a F3 in between for a full punish)
Scarecrow F3 (hella lag, free vine grab or F2)

Against the tougher zoning projectiles:
Batarang (free DB3 attempt after ducking the first. If done correctly you can get the damage while avoiding the second batarang)
Harley straight gun (if she attempts the second you will stuff with vine grab)
Joker (I believe the same as harley but I may be wrong)

Anything I missed let me know. Everything else I've found is trade at best which is silly. In that case Log Kick is probably the best trade. HKD and best advantage seems like. But I'm not certain he can get a log out between every projectile (*cough* deadshot)

 

[TheDylbot]

Toughest match ups I've found is probably Catwoman. Her JI2 is basically ours but better and she can be on top of us at any time which is pretty sad for Swampers. Best hope is she mis-spaces it so you get a AA 1 or low profile D3.

Deadshot and probably Fate are tough but seem doable.

I've found he has pretty poor punish options up close for characters with slightly negative pressure. Things like fate ankh -8 or stuff that's around -10 but pushes you out of 1 or D2 range is annoying. Best to go for a green thumb punish or start B2/F2 pressure. If they are close and slightly negative D2 > green thumb is a pretty great tool.

He slightly makes up for that by having great midscreen/75% screen punishes with vine grab and F2. So far he gets hard punishes on:

Black Magic
Lightning Strike (if Black Adam barely whiffs this after you jump it's a free punish)
Blood Nado
Omega Beam
Tentacle Strike (half-ish screen)
Trident (I think lol)
WW shield (you can also whiff punish air shield but it's difficult. Might be better to just log or clone)
Supes air laser (DB3)
Harley air pistol
Harley MB air pistol(*!! found this one the other day, MB a F3 in between for a full punish)
Scarecrow F3

I would agree with most of this, but I'm finding db3 with supes air laser is 9/10 times a trade, but that might just be me.

Also, nice find on the harley punish, will have to try that, but in that MU for me she generally sits out of f3 reach for air guns...

Also feeling like fate is not as bad of a MU as it looks on paper, you can crouch walk alot of his stuff, ignore MB orbs because you have the reach with db1, db3 and df1.. tend to stick to db1 and db3 though, he will generally see df1 coming a mile away. Fullscreen is a pain but if he gets comfy and spams, db3ex is a great punish to close the gap

Still not sold on deadshot being manage-able, his recovery and fullscreen dominance are too much for me, so any tips are appreciated

Feel like darkseid is 4-6 too, the spammy ones you can deal with, but the set players will make you afraid to use db2 to punish teleport, forget air grabbing him because you won't land it, you have to be incredibly patient and try to open him when he risks coming in

 

[TheDylbot]

Captain cold: 5-5, having success with this one by checking him the split second he starts charging trait - db3 or df1 though (db3 preferrably), db1 is too slow here. Block low alot too, always watch for the wake up wall and punish accordingly

Atrocitus: 4-6, he has better pressure, better mix ups, better plus frames, trait safety. Fullscreen is a snorefest because you're both crouching, first one to make a move loses. However*, MB f3 can blow up his wake up and a few of his strings. One of the only MU's I'd suggest using an f3, lol. Also, tick grabs come in handy too (d1,df2 & d2, df2)

This is all I have for now really, need to explore some more match ups

 

[Swoops]

I would agree with most of this, but I'm finding db3 with supes air laser is 9/10 times a trade, but that might just be me.

Also, nice find on the harley punish, will have to try that, but in that MU for me she generally sits out of f3 reach for air guns...

Also feeling like fate is not as bad of a MU as it looks on paper, you can crouch walk alot of his stuff, ignore MB orbs because you have the reach with db1, db3 and df1.. tend to stick to db1 and db3 though, he will generally see df1 coming a mile away. Fullscreen is a pain but if he gets comfy and spams, db3ex is a great punish to close the gap

Still not sold on deadshot being manage-able, his recovery and fullscreen dominance are too much for me, so any tips are appreciated

Feel like darkseid is 4-6 too, the spammy ones you can deal with, but the set players will make you afraid to use db2 to punish teleport, forget air grabbing him because you won't land it, you have to be incredibly patient and try to open him when he risks coming in

Shouldn't be trading with supes air laser, it's a punish after block. Someone posted about it in the general I think.

Deadshot is frustrating as all hell for sure. I mostly focus on gaining any ground whenever I can. You're going to eat a bullet or two, but try to make them count. Log trades at long range seem like the best way to get a free dash on hit OR block. Then try make damn sure you put the pressure at mid range for as long as possible.

Not experienced enough with good darkseids yet. They all teleport raw in neutral which I've been able to back walk (forward) out of pressure and 11 punish. No mix up. I'm guessing I'll need to think of something different on wake up or with minions.

 

[Brown Cow 54]

Just my thoughts on a few. I think we beat Canary and Robin. Can zone out canary decently well and then once she gets in we outreach her. Kind of the same with Robin. Beat him at his own long reach with faster normals and blow up batarang with vine grab.

I hate the Batman match up. Need advice on that one.

 

[Jowabunga]

ST vs. Aquaman: A friend is maining Aquaman so I've gotten in a lot of time with this matchup. Even though it's probably roughly 5-5 it's frustrating and stressful because Aqua's buttons are generally so much better. My buddy likes to throw unsafe stuff out frequently but because everything Swamp Thing has is slow it's hard to punish any of it.

Which brings up a question... is it me or does Swamp Thing not have much of a wakeup game? DB2 is nearly useless in that vein. I haven't really tried BF3 yet - on paper it doesn't seem like a horrible option at -3... Anyone know if it's armored?

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

ST vs. Aquaman: A friend is maining Aquaman so I've gotten in a lot of time with this matchup. Even though it's probably roughly 5-5 it's frustrating and stressful because Aqua's buttons are generally so much better. My buddy likes to throw unsafe stuff out frequently but because everything Swamp Thing has is slow it's hard to punish any of it.

Which brings up a question... is it me or does Swamp Thing not have much of a wakeup game? DB2 is nearly useless in that vein. I haven't really tried BF3 yet - on paper it doesn't seem like a horrible option at -3... Anyone know if it's armored?

Yes, Aqua man is by far a superior character to Swamp thing . No way it's 5-5 given damage output alone between the two.
BF3 does have invincibility on the initial startup when used as a wake-up. It is vulnerable right before it hits, similar to many wake-up attacks.
You can try backdashing on wake-up as a very high risk option as well. One thing NRS got right was ensuring this character archetype is weak against pressure... ha... ha... ha... (joker style).

 

[Jowabunga]

Yes, Aqua man is by far a superior character to Swamp thing . No way it's 5-5 given damage output alone between the two.
BF3 does have invincibility on the initial startup when used as a wake-up. It is vulnerable right before it hits, similar to many wake-up attacks.
You can try backdashing on wake-up as a very high risk option as well. One thing NRS got right was ensuring this character archetype is weak against pressure... ha... ha... ha... (joker style).

Hey Matt, sup?

I didn't wanna be overly dramatic by saying 4-6 or worse cus it's early and I don't like crying wolf generally, but... it's pretty rough. Because Aquaman is uber + on so many of his strings and Swamp Thing has such high startups on everything I've had to learn to be crazy patient and block a lot. I'm waiting for my buddy to start throwing more to counter and then I'll really have no answers.

The situations which led to my question about wakeups are when I'm nearly or fully in the corner and have no room to backdash.

Projecting to the future, I'm wondering how the hell Swampy is gonna be able to handle faster characters like Catwoman and Cheetah.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I struggle to find a 5-5 matchup with this character outside of captain cold, who also has the same problems. Seems like the NRS isn't great at making high tactics characters. It's either pew pew or hey hey hey!

My advice is disregard the damage output against the bad matchups and find victory in your good play based on spacing, which is f2 peak range. Just know most good players aren't going to be playing this character in it's current form, so knowledge will be more limited

 

[TheDylbot]

Hey Matt, sup?

I didn't wanna be overly dramatic by saying 4-6 or worse cus it's early and I don't like crying wolf generally, but... it's pretty rough. Because Aquaman is uber + on so many of his strings and Swamp Thing has such high startups on everything I've had to learn to be crazy patient and block a lot. I'm waiting for my buddy to start throwing more to counter and then I'll really have no answers.

The situations which led to my question about wakeups are when I'm nearly or fully in the corner and have no room to backdash.

Projecting to the future, I'm wondering how the hell Swampy is gonna be able to handle faster characters like Catwoman and Cheetah.

I feel as though a-man is 5-5 myself also, my first post I made some notes as to working around his projectiles. He is an annoying MU for sure, he is plus on so many strings and it can be difficult to get around that. My only suggestion so far would be to keep him within F2 range, because it reaches further than his moves.

I also tend to play it more mid-3/4 screen and bait his unsafe projectiles, so that I can punish them and either read the wake up or turn up the pressure. As with everything with swampy, its a game of patience and reads.

I don't think its as bad a MU as say aquaman v grodd though. Had a set vs a really good aquaman as grodd, and that MU is an absolute nightmare. Swampy actually has a couple ways to get around him.

 

[Jowabunga]

Focusing on spacing: That's exactly what I've been doing. I actually poke a lot from max range with 3 too just trying to get the KD which I can hopefully use to keep the pressure up. That's hard though too because even though most of Aquaman's wakeup game is predictable and really unsafe, Swamp Thing has a problem punishing things in general. Otherwise, with spacing, the problem in this matchup is that Aquaman's range might actually match Swamp Thing's so it's not as exploitable as it might be in other matchups.

Aquaman vs. Grodd: The second character I picked up in this game was Black Canary and playing her against this same friend w/ Aquaman made me put her down for a while, for the same reason - it's a miserable matchup, especially if your parries aren't working. I feel your pain.

On a more general level I'm kinda disappointed how many bad matchups there seem to be so far.

 

[1man3letters]

vs red hood if he does his back roll you can vine grab him before he can jump/duck/etc
same with the mb version which you duck a its a high and do the same,smaller window though
very handy if to stop back rolls out of db2,2 oki

 

[Raynex]

- Anti-Superman

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880311299946795008

- Anti-Aquaman
*At the end is a strong mix-up I wanted to share. Clone leaves you at +15, and B1 is 16f start-up. This means there is only a 1f gap and it is virtually an uninterruptible low mix-up, that is also safe and hit-confirmable. If the stomps don't connect, don't MB the bf3 and you're safe at -3. I'm finding that punishing into the +15 clone is probably Swampy's best case scenario as far as mix-up goes.

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880315069762084864

- A few tricks to deal with Deadshot Zoning

https://twitter.com/raynexpress/status/880321426695303168

 

[RNLDRGN]

EDITED/UPDATED PER PLAYER GROWTH AND MU EXPERIENCE

So I won't say I'm anywhere near the authority on Swamp Thing and his MUs--but I have spent a crazy amount of time with him in the lab and have a relatively good understanding of when he succeeds vs when he suffers. This is absolutely a living list and all feedback is welcome--I expect this to be updated. If you disagree voice it and let's discuss, I could very well be wrong. I'm also not shy about assigning skewed MUs--by the end of the game's life the 7/3s or 8/2s usually dissipate, but I won't hold my breath just yet lol.

Aquaman: 5-5

Atrocitus: 5-5

Bane: 4-6 (possibly worse. Bio, @Wetdoba, and I discussed this and the MU can be reminiscent of Grundy v Bane from IGAU).

Batman: 3-7 or a really hard 4-6 (Batman simply has to run away and Swamp cannot catch him. That + zoning + Swamp's questionable AAs make it one of ST's worst MU's IMO).

Black Adam: 4-6, possibly 5-5 now that his damage has been toned down.

Black Canary: 6-4 (I suck at blocking her overhead mixup, but once you're comfortable with it Swamp can actually give her hell on getting in.)

Blue Beetle: 4-6

Brainiac: 5-5 (I really struggle with this MU, but have been assured it's even. Brainiac has about the same range but slightly faster. Needs more labbing)

Captain Cold: 4-6

Catwoman: 4-6 (B3 low profiles your one good footsie tool lol). Possibly 5-5 now that she's been toned down a tad. Still not the easiest MU.

Cheetah: 4-6

Cyborg: 4-6

Darkseid: 4-6

Deadshot: 3-7 (One of the worst MU in the game IMO. It's doable, but not unless you get him into the corner early or there is a serious skill gap between players)

Dr. Fate: 4-6

Firestorm: 4-6 (If it weren't for his bad AAs this MU would be MUCH worse)

Flash: 6-4 (One of Swamp's good MUs. He can keep Flash in check midscreen pretty well.)

Grodd: 5-5

Green Arrow: 4-6

Green Lantern: 5-5

Harley Quinn: 4-6, possibly 3-7. Her zoning + hyenas are so effective here.

Joker: 4-6 (Joker's zoning is strangely effective in this MU given how slow Swamp is and how useful well-placed parries can be.)

Poison Ivy: 4-6

Red Hood: 4-6

Robin: 4-6 (His footsies are almost as far as yours but are much faster)

Scarecrow: 5-5

Super Girl: 5-5

Superman: 3-7, or a very hard 4-6. His pressure is stupid and your slow normals mean you're getting knocked fullscreen for every footsie or poke you mis-space. His zoning is also a b*tch to get through with your floaty jump and terrible MB roll.

Wonder Woman: 4-6 (Air shield is hell.)

Starfire: 4-6

SubZero: 5-5, maybe 4-6. His clone puts a halt to a lot of your footsies.


Again--if you'll notice above Swamp does pretty poorly vs zoning characters and those with high mobility or good air projectiles. His up-vines are too unreliable to keep quick or highly mobile jumpers off of him and he can be lamed out by walk-back + projectile, MB roll out of corner by a lot of the cast. He's bad, but he has some surprisingly not horrible MUs vs some of the top tiers (Aqua, Atrocitus, + even BA aren't terrible).

TLDR:
Best MUs: Flash, Canary
Worst MUs: Deadshot, Harley, Supes, possibly Batman

Thoughts?

 

[xKhaoTik]

Damn this is the second thread I've seen where swamp beats canary. I need to run that.

I agree with Ivy tho. I would even go as far as say 7-3 in her favor. It's pretty bad lol

 

[B. Shazzy]

lul decay has some explaining to do about the beetle matchup. its only 4-6 and yet...

 

[Zoidberg747]

I find it fascinating that you have Atro and Aqua as 5-5. Although i've never played either so I can't refute it at all. What makes them even in your mind?

 

[RNLDRGN]

Damn this is the second thread I've seen where swamp beats canary. I need to run that.

I agree with Ivy tho. I would even go as far as say 7-3 in her favor. It's pretty bad lol

I'm having to separate how I do vs Canary and admit that if a Swamp main labs her mixup and gets good at blocking it he is definitely at advantage. Hell I get hit by that shit every time and I still don't feel like it's that hard even when I lose. Unless she has trait she's not a huge threat to him.

lul decay has some explaining to do about the beetle matchup. its only 4-6 and yet...

What do you mean?

I find it fascinating that you have Atro and Aqua as 5-5. Although i've never played either so I can't refute it at all. What makes them even in your mind?

Aquaman thoughts:
1. Vines. They can punish FTD from close and mid range.

2. Footsies. Swamp actually gets to play footsies vs Aquaman. Yes he gets outdamaged overall, but he can absolutely hang with our Ocean Boy mid range.

3. Trait. Aquaman's trait is negligible in this MU bc Swamp's combos usually launch either immediately or after an unsuccessfully blocked mixup. I've been water of life'd out of a Swamp combo maybe 1 time ever.

Atrocitus thoughts (quoting @CrazyFingers on some of this--he thinks it's Swamp favor).
Swamp can punish both raw trait and puddle with vines pretty easily. Swamp also has better footsies. The MU feels even to me, but I'm eager to hear what some Atroc mains say too.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I'm having to separate how I do vs Canary and admit that if a Swamp main labs her mixup and gets good at blocking it he is definitely at advantage. Hell I get hit by that shit every time and I still don't feel like it's that hard even when I lose. Unless she has trait she's not a huge threat to him.


What do you mean?


Aquaman thoughts:
1. Vines. They can punish FTD from close and mid range.

2. Footsies. Swamp actually gets to play footsies vs Aquaman. Yes he gets outdamaged overall, but he can absolutely hang with our Ocean Boy mid range.

3. Trait. Aquaman's trait is negligible in this MU bc Swamp's combos usually launch either immediately or after an unsuccessfully blocked mixup. I've been water of life'd out of a Swamp combo maybe 1 time ever.

Atrocitus thoughts (quoting @CrazyFingers on some of this--he thinks it's Swamp favor).
Swamp can punish both raw trait and puddle with vines pretty easily. Swamp also has better footsies. The MU feels even to me, but I'm eager to hear what some Atroc mains say too.

Only thing I'd say is no Atro is going to do raw trait or throw out random puddles against someone who can punish them. What I would like to know is how much meter Swamp can build for pushblock, how he deals with shield approaches, and what his wakeup options might be when dealing with Atro's oki. I'm personally skeptical of it being anything other than Atro's favor, but I would need to play it a lot.

 

[RNLDRGN]

Only thing I'd say is no Atro is going to do raw trait or throw out random puddles against someone who can punish them. What I would like to know is how much meter Swamp can build for pushblock, how he deals with shield approaches, and what his wakeup options might be when dealing with Atro's oki. I'm personally skeptical of it being anything other than Atro's favor, but I would need to play it a lot.

Wanna add me on PSN and run it? I could very well be wrong.

PSN: RONALD_ROGAN.