Guide Subzero VS Kung lao

[Big Pampering]

that is where a majority of SZ's damage comes from

the point blank battle is not bad at all, if you simple it down: you either block and expect a spin or expect a string and do d4. the risk reward in this situation is even. the problem is kung lao can do a jumpkick dive kick away for 2% free chip, or try to cross you over if he guessed you were doing to do a d4 and subzeros anti crossup isnt that great. the problem here is, kung lao is the one that decides whether he wants to play this game or not and it is not his only option to get in some damage.

 

[Qwark28]

the point blank battle is not bad at all, if you simple it down: you either block and expect a spin or expect a string and do d4. the risk reward in this situation is even. the problem is kung lao can do a jumpkick dive kick away for 2% free chip, or try to cross you over if he guessed you were doing to do a d4 and subzeros anti crossup isnt that great. the problem here is, kung lao is the one that decides whether he wants to play this game or not and it is not his only option to get in some damage.

this, a majority of the damage comes from the neutral game, its boils down to a very simple situation.

 

[Seapeople]

I'm probably missing something here, but why would Kung Lao risk doing a random spin after 21 when he could just use 21212? It's safer, builds more meter & chip. Also after 21 if you expect Lao to go into another 21, 24, or 1221 you can duck it and 22~freeze but that's obviously riskier and the timing is pretty strict.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm probably missing something here, but why would Kung Lao risk doing a random spin after 21 when he could just use 21212? It's safer, builds more meter & chip. Also after 21 if you expect Lao to go into another 21, 24, or 1221 you can duck it and 22~freeze but that's obviously riskier and the timing is pretty strict.

because after the first hit everyone of those strings will hit you, thus why KL has to spin to get people to respect his pressure

 

[Seapeople]

because after the first hit everyone of those strings will hit you, thus why KL has to spin to get people to respect his pressure

I still don't understand. If you block 21 then you'll have to block the rest of the string if Lao chooses to finish it, and I don't think you can poke out of 21, 21 on reaction.

 

[Qwark28]

I still don't understand. If you block 21 then you'll have to block the rest of the string if Lao chooses to finish it, and I don't think you can poke out of 21, 21 on reaction.

that string is always - no matter what and horribly scaled but it is something to look out for.

no, its a read, not a reaction.

 

[Seapeople]

that string is always - no matter what and horribly scaled but it is something to look out for.

no, its a read, not a reaction.

21212 is negative but it can only be full combo punished by Sub in the corner. Midscreen all you get is a free blockstring. The damage on 21212 is scaled but that's not enough reason to use a random spin check instead. Same read, lower risk.

 

[Qwark28]

21212 is negative but it can only be full combo punished by Sub in the corner. Midscreen all you get is a free blockstring. The damage on 21212 is scaled but that's not enough reason to use a random spin check instead. Same read, lower risk.

true, but kung lao drops all his pressure and sub gets in, kl does have more options in the matchup but sub can compete.

 

[Seapeople]

true, but kung lao drops all his pressure and sub gets in, kl does have more options in the matchup but sub can compete.

Oh yeah I'm not saying it's a horrible match. It's probably 4-6 imo.
But either way by using a random spin or 21212, Lao is dropping all his pressure on a read. 21212 is just the better choice in that situation.

And he could potentially also go into 2121212, 21212~low hat, or 21212~teleport mixups when he confirms that the full string was blocked. Even though that's all risky stuff, it still gives him more options to work with.

 

[Wildabeast]

Oh yeah I'm not saying it's a horrible match. It's probably 4-6 imo.
But either way by using a random spin or 21212, Lao is dropping all his pressure on a read. 21212 is just the better choice in that situation.

And he could potentially also go into 2121212, 21212~low hat, or 21212~teleport mixups when he confirms that the full string was blocked. Even though that's all risky stuff, it still gives him more options to work with.

Technically he could go for those yes but those aren't just unsafe they're unsafe and more than likely not going to hit anyone that knows what they're doing (unless of course you're online, everything works at least sometimes online).

 

[Seapeople]

Technically he could go for those yes but those aren't just unsafe they're unsafe and more than likely not going to hit anyone that knows what they're doing (unless of course you're online, everything works at least sometimes online).

Lettuce not theory fight so much. Why would those mixups not work offline? You might know exactly what you're doing, but you still have to guess between the low hat & overhead, or the instant & delayed 3.

The point I was trying to make isn't that Lao should always opt for these mixups, but they are just more options available to him by using 21212 rather than a random spin.

 

[Wildabeast]

Lettuce not theory fight so much. Why would those mixups not work offline? You might know exactly what you're doing, but you still have to guess between the low hat & overhead, or the instant & delayed 3.

The point I was trying to make isn't that Lao should always opt for these mixups, but they are just more options available to him by using 21212 rather than a random spin.

Tele 3 and Delayed 3 yes as long as you're not a low hit box character you have to guess. 21212 into low hat or overhead is not hard to guard at all though mostly because there is a sizeable gap between the rapid jabs and the overhead, enough that you can either armor through it or just confirm hes going for the overhead and block high. Seriously its not hard at all, with that in mind plus the fact that both the overhead and the low hat are more unsafe on block than just 21212 by itself means theres really no point in ever going for the "50/50".

But you are right about one thing, against characters that cannot punish 21212 on block (I believe Sub is one of them) its much better to go for that than a random spin.