Guide Subzero VS Kung lao

[Qwark28]

But Lao's move is 1 frame faster... and it's safe aha.

crouching takes 1 frame

D4 IS safe.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

crouching takes 1 frame

D4 IS safe.

Lol, duh it's safe, but you can't d4 out of pressure... or during pressure unless you want to eat a full combo.

 

[Qwark28]

Lol, duh it's safe, but you can't d4 out of pressure... or during pressure unless you want to eat a full combo.

watch me.

you wanna throw? das cool
wanna 1121/21? das cool too
wanna spin? take the risk and/or pay the price/well done.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

watch me.

you wanna throw? das cool
wanna 1121/21? das cool too
wanna spin? take the risk and/or pay the price/well done.

Lmao, I can 21 for free. What the hell is sub gonna do to stop me? Hopefully d4 I get it off? Cool, then what....

 

[Qwark28]

Lmao, I can 21 for free. What the hell is sub gonna do to stop me? Hopefully d4 I get it off? Cool, then what....

oh, then by your logic sub can't do anything other than ex slide to escape KL's pressure.

yet you still havent told me, what will sub do? if he cant do the difficult task of crouching and D4ing then how is he gonna escape pressure?

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

oh, then by your logic sub can't do anything other than ex slide to escape KL's pressure.

yet you still havent told me, what will sub do? if he cant do the difficult task of crouching and D4ing then how is he gonna escape pressure?

You can D1, you can D3 and counterpoke or hope for a D4. Bro, you act like you're gonna hit the d4 is 1 frame slower T_T. Which means before it gets off you'd be hit. But forget that.

Tell me 1 aspect of Sub's offense that Lao has to respect besides D1.

 

[Qwark28]

You can D1, you can D3 and counterpoke or hope for a D4. Bro, you act like you're gonna hit the d4 is 1 frame slower T_T. Which means before it gets off you'd be hit. But forget that.

Tell me 1 aspect of Sub's offense that Lao has to respect besides D1.

D1 is 7f -6 ON HIT
D3 7F is +2 ON HIT

What are you even talking about? when you're doing D4 you're CROUCHED and 21 hits special mid which means it DOESNT HIT when you're crouching OR doing anything WHILE crouching.

before you post again please take a look at subzeros frame data http://testyourmight.com/threads/sub-zero-frame-data.13250/

 

[Qwark28]

one aspect of subs offense?

clone. every character in the game has to respect that particular move with no exceptions.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

D1 is 7f -6 ON HIT
D3 7F is +2 ON HIT

What are you even talking about? when you're doing D4 you're CROUCHED and 21 hits special mid which means it DOESNT HIT when you're crouching OR doing anything WHILE crouching.

before you post again please take a look at subzeros frame data http://testyourmight.com/threads/sub-zero-frame-data.13250/

Lmao, that sucks that is D1 is terrible.

The first thing I asked was did 2 1 hit on crouch.... if something hits mid it'll hit you when it's crouching... IF it hits mid then you're not gonna be able to D4 out of it. Look at my first post before you get butt hurt.

Edit: Why the hell does Lao have to respect clone when he has the mobility he does...

 

[Qwark28]

Lmao, that sucks that is D1 is terrible.

The first thing I asked was did 2 1 hit on crouch.... if something hits mid it'll hit you when it's crouching... IF it hits mid then you're not gonna be able to D4 out of it. Look at my first post before you get butt hurt.

Edit: Why the hell does Lao have to respect clone when he has the mobility he does...

hence the SPECIAL part of SPECIAL mid

as in mid that hits crouch block but not naked crouch

not butt hurt, just pretty surprised because this doesnt come up often.

everyone has to respect clone, EVERYONE, these are the moves it stops you from doing if its used good

F3
Divekick
Teleport
F2

and thats just midscreen, in the corner you have to worry about his setups, your wakeups are almost useless and things can be punished harder in the corner.

whats mobility when you face a wall? only thing wrong is that its only a small part of a wall.

 

[Seapeople]

Lmao, that sucks that is D1 is terrible.

The first thing I asked was did 2 1 hit on crouch.... if something hits mid it'll hit you when it's crouching... IF it hits mid then you're not gonna be able to D4 out of it. Look at my first post before you get butt hurt.

Edit: Why the hell does Lao have to respect clone when he has the mobility he does...

It hits special mid meaning you can still neutral crouch or poke and avoid it. Characters with 12 frame d4s can even poke out Lao's pressure.
Erveryone has to respect the clone to a degree. If you could completely negate the clone this would be like a 9-1 match probably lol

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

hence the SPECIAL part of SPECIAL mid

as in mid that hits crouch block but not naked crouch

not butt hurt, just pretty surprised because this doesnt come up often.

everyone has to respect clone, EVERYONE, these are the moves it stops you from doing if its used good

F3
Divekick
Teleport

and thats just midscreen, in the corner you have to worry about his setups, your wakeups are almost useless and things can be punished harder in the corner.

whats mobility when you face a wall? only thing wrong is that its only a small part of a wall.

Lmao, let me get this straight, so you're gonna stand next to Lao and not block? Even if you don't you only have a 3 frame window to guess
1). if i'm gonna follow up the 21 with 21212
2). If i'm going to cancel 21 into low hat
3). If i'm going to cancel into teleport
4). If i'm gonna stagger 2
5). if i'm going to do naked 21 and block
6). If i'm going to 21 into spin to blow up D4

Come on bro, also you can't keep Lao in the corner with his tele and Jk dk. You can try to walk back 22 on reaction, but then there's no pressure while i'm in the corner. And if I have 1 bar of meter, i'm definitely getting out.

 

[Qwark28]

Lmao, let me get this straight, so you're gonna stand next to Lao and not block? Even if you don't you only have a 3 frame window to guess
1). if i'm gonna follow up the 21 with 21212
2). If i'm going to cancel 21 into low hat
3). If i'm going to cancel into teleport
4). If i'm gonna stagger 2
5). if i'm going to do naked 21 and block
6). If i'm going to 21 into spin to blow up D4

Come on bro, also you can't keep Lao in the corner with his tele and Jk dk. You can try to walk back 22 on reaction, but then there's no pressure while i'm in the corner. And if I have 1 bar of meter, i'm definitely getting out.

1) no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
2)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
3)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
4)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
5)no, im doing it while youre doing 2
6)read and can also be blown up, tell me something new

obviously if i dont read a divekick im not gonna sit back and wait it out till you do it.

if you have one bar of meter im gonna backdash to b12 and blow your back out while putting back in the corner in the exact same situation with 40% hp and one bar of meter less.

just the fact that you consider jumpkicking when i can actually bait and punish it and spending a bar of meter on an unsafe teleport.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

It hits special mid meaning you can still neutral crouch or poke and avoid it. Characters with 12 frame d4s can even poke out Lao's pressure.
Erveryone has to respect the clone to a degree. If you could completely negate the clone this would be like a 9-1 match probably lol

This Mu is like putting a 2 foot gate in front of a champion horse and trying to outrun it on a bicycle. He's gonna get over the gate and he's probably gonna beat you in the race. 7-3 Mu easy. Anybody can do any move out of Lao pressure, in most character's places though it's a bad idea. I didn't know what special mid meant though, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

1) no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
2)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
3)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
4)no, im poking the 2, not the 2 (1)
5)no, im doing it while youre doing 2
6)read and can also be blown up, tell me something new

obviously if i dont read a divekick im not gonna sit back and wait it out till you do it.

if you have one bar of meter im gonna backdash to b12 and blow your back out while putting back in the corner in the exact same situation with 40% hp and one bar of meter less.

Lol? So you're never gonna crouch block? You're NOT gonna poke the 2 because you're not gonna just sit back neutral ducking and waiting for me to pressure with a string that I might not use... If I stagger tele 1 grab it grants me more armor and i'm gonna combo you're B1 2 bro, get outta here.

Also, if your'e reading a spin... THAT MEANS YOU'RE CROUCH BLOCKING! I'm just gonna 24 or 21 again.

 

[Qwark28]

Lol? So you're never gonna crouch block? You're NOT gonna poke the 2 because you're not gonna just sit back neutral ducking and waiting for me to pressure with a string that I might not use... If I stagger tele 1 grab it grants me more armor and i'm gonna combo you're B1 2 bro, get outta here.

Also, if your'e reading a spin... THAT MEANS YOU'RE CROUCH BLOCKING! I'm just gonna 24 or 21 again.

im always gonna crouch block when youre in my face, im just never gonna crouch block when im reading a 21

this is what a character CAN do, matchups are not based on READS, otherwise i may as well just say im gonna crossup your tele 1 grab and punish spin all day but that aint sub specific.

stop taking reads into account, take into what can be done and while accounting risk/reward.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Lol? So you're never gonna crouch block? You're NOT gonna poke the 2 because you're not gonna just sit back neutral ducking and waiting for me to pressure with a string that I might not use... If I stagger tele 1 grab it grants me more armor and i'm gonna combo you're B1 2 bro, get outta here.

Also, if your'e reading a spin... THAT MEANS YOU'RE CROUCH BLOCKING! I'm just gonna 24 or 21 again.

3% chip is nothing.

KL pressure relies on me respecting your spin. That is really it...

The reason its such a hard MU is that KL can jump in on SZ and punish him for trying to AA... because all of his moves have tremendous recovery. Ice clone, 2,2... standing 2, even b1 all have HUGE recovery that KL can teleport3. Then you can get free JIP blockstrings (which build huge meter and do decent chip). So basically when KL DOES make a mistake, he tends to have the meter to simply break and do all his nonsense again.

KL dictates the entire pace of the match. I don't think its a 7-3 because he doesn't have an air combo (like a kitana or Kabal) that he can mix in after a block string (jump away Iaf). Most of SZ damage will come AFTER a KL block string. That in itself sucks hard ballz.

BTW.... if you do 21 21 as KL... i have an eternity to confirm a non linked special and d4... all i need is the animation of d4 to start and 2 will whiff. But you are right.... SZ will eat a ton of block chip and strings because of how KL is built.

 

[Qwark28]

3% chip is nothing.

KL pressure relies on me respecting your spin. That is really it...

The reason its such a hard MU is that KL can jump in on SZ and punish him for trying to AA... because all of his moves have tremendous recovery. Ice clone, 2,2... standing 2, even b1 all have HUGE recovery that KL can teleport3. Then you can get free JIP blockstrings (which build huge meter and do decent chip). So basically when KL DOES make a mistake, he tends to have the meter to simply break and do all his nonsense again.

KL dictates the entire pace of the match. I don't think its a 7-3 because he doesn't have an air combo (like a kitana or Kabal) that he can mix in after a block string (jump away Iaf). Most of SZ damage will come AFTER a KL block string. That in itself sucks hard ballz.

BTW.... if you do 21 21 as KL... i have an eternity to confirm a non linked special and d4... all i need is the animation of d4 to start and 2 will whiff. But you are right.... SZ will eat a ton of block chip and strings because of how KL is built.

no, that does play a part but KL doesnt need to rushdown SZ when he has the lead

tele is a read as well, if you read a jump in tele you dash to him while hes doing the jump in and youve already backdashed the tele

he loses because kl has the best mobility in the game and brutal pressure building lots of meter and chip while easily taking the lifelead while at the same time punishing subzero faster and harder for any mistakes.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

3% chip is nothing.

KL pressure relies on me respecting your spin. That is really it...

The reason its such a hard MU is that KL can jump in on SZ and punish him for trying to AA... because all of his moves have tremendous recovery. Ice clone, 2,2... standing 2, even b1 all have HUGE recovery that KL can teleport3. Then you can get free JIP blockstrings (which build huge meter and do decent chip). So basically when KL DOES make a mistake, he tends to have the meter to simply break and do all his nonsense again.

KL dictates the entire pace of the match. I don't think its a 7-3 because he doesn't have an air combo (like a kitana or Kabal) that he can mix in after a block string (jump away Iaf). Most of SZ damage will come AFTER a KL block string. That in itself sucks hard ballz.

BTW.... if you do 21 21 as KL... i have an eternity to confirm a non linked special and d4... all i need is the animation of d4 to start and 2 will whiff. But you are right.... SZ will eat a ton of block chip and strings because of how KL is built.

@Qwark The reason this MU is hard is because Sub can't keep Lao out and Lao out footsies sub. Sub can't pressure with 212, sub can't 2 1 4 ice clone because it's -24 and Lao can tele right back in for pressure. Lao can jump and and mix up with tele shenanigans on every character, it's not MU specific. The 1 in 2 1 is 11 frames, you only have 3 frames to execute your D4 and you have to worry about 6 different options if you're not neutral crouching bro.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

@Qwark The reason this MU is hard is because Sub can't keep Lao out and Lao out footsies sub. Sub can't pressure with 212, sub can't 2 1 4 ice clone because it's -24 and Lao can tele right back in for pressure. Lao can jump and and mix up with tele shenanigans on every character, it's not MU specific. The 1 in 2 1 is 11 frames, you only have 3 frames to execute your D4 and you have to worry about 6 different options if you're not neutral crouching bro.

i'm not qwark....

but no one out footsies sub... because of clone and the fact that d4 is zero on block and 8 frames.

SZ can use anything he wants out of 214... because it is only -9. No reason to always clone after.

but that is neither here nor there. I agree this MU sucks. Especially if the KL player doesn't stick to a set way of doing things and stays away from easy patterns.

 

[Qwark28]

@Qwark The reason this MU is hard is because Sub can't keep Lao out and Lao out footsies sub. Sub can't pressure with 212, sub can't 2 1 4 ice clone because it's -24 and Lao can tele right back in for pressure. Lao can jump and and mix up with tele shenanigans on every character, it's not MU specific. The 1 in 2 1 is 11 frames, you only have 3 frames to execute your D4 and you have to worry about 6 different options if you're not neutral crouching bro.

list me the options and please dont tell me slow ass f2 and 24 mixups.

214 and 224 clone are completely safe other than from a low hat check because you need slightly more frames than my - ones to re-appear, sub can easily 22/neutral crouch the mixup or just uppercut

no, i dont, if im reading a 21 i have 11 frames to D4 you, im not reacting to the 2

subzero doesnt have to take risks when he has the lead, he CAN turtle kung lao

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

i'm not qwark....

but no one out footsies sub... because of clone and the fact that d4 is zero on block and 8 frames.

SZ can use anything he wants out of 214... because it is only -9. No reason to always clone after.

but that is neither here nor there. I agree this MU sucks. Especially if the KL player doesn't stick to a set way of doing things and stays away from easy patterns.

If sub out footsies Lao, why doesn't sub rush Lao down... Absolutely everybody who's hit by 21 on crouch loses in footsies to Lao baring Sonya and Kabal. Also, ex tele is 9 frames , idk if it'll work, but do all the 214 you want and put yourself back in my pressure.

 

[Qwark28]

i'm not qwark....

but no one out footsies sub... because of clone and the fact that d4 is zero on block and 8 frames.

SZ can use anything he wants out of 214... because it is only -9. No reason to always clone after.

but that is neither here nor there. I agree this MU sucks. Especially if the KL player doesn't stick to a set way of doing things and stays away from easy patterns.

you are qwark

soon every subzero will be known as qwark

the virus shall strike even brady himself and will prompt a 10 hour KTP/OBS podcast about why subzero was nerfed

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If sub out footsies Lao, why doesn't sub rush Lao down... Absolutely everybody who's hit by 21 on crouch loses in footsies to Lao baring Sonya and Kabal. Also, ex tele is 9 frames , idk if it'll work, but do all the 214 you want and put yourself back in my pressure.

You sorta have to... I do at least.... force him into using spins.

btw... teleport STARTS at 9 frames.... but he doesn't end up on the other side that quickly. Ex especially.... that thing lasts forever and a day.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

list me the options and please dont tell me slow ass f2 and 24 mixups.

214 and 224 clone are completely safe other than from a low hat check because you need slightly more frames than my - ones to re-appear, sub can easily 22/neutral crouch the mixup or just uppercut

no, i dont, if im reading a 21 i have 11 frames to D4 you, im not reacting to the 2

subzero doesnt have to take risks when he has the lead, he CAN turtle kung lao

Lol, I already listed them and all you said is "Nope i'm gonna read it and D4 you." You have a 3 frame window because the move is 8 frames bro... If you do it on the 4th frame you're back in pressure.

Why are you acting like you're just gonna sit back and neutral crouch all day hoping for a read on a 21? Gtfoh bro.