Guide Subzero VS Kung lao

[Obs_SmSwag]

You sorta have to... I do at least.... force him into using spins.

btw... teleport STARTS at 9 frames.... but he doesn't end up on the other side that quickly. Ex especially.... that thing lasts forever and a day.

I'm not gonna teleport a naked 214, I have 10 frames to react to the clone and hit you with the 5 frame instant tele 3. If you honestly believe that Sub out footsies Lao though, i'm done bro lol. You can't D1 so you're fastest move is as fast as mine, but mine is safe. Whatevs though, i'm out.

 

[Qwark28]

Lol, I already listed them and all you said is "Nope i'm gonna read it and D4 you." You have a 3 frame window because the move is 8 frames bro... If you do it on the 4th frame you're back in pressure.

Why are you acting like you're just gonna sit back and neutral crouch all day hoping for a read on a 21? Gtfoh bro.

true math

what you listed is 6 of what youre gonna do if i neutral crouch and 1 thing ill catch if im neutral crouching

logic= im gonna do what the 6 things are stopped by and stop only when i read that 1 thing

not even mentioning over half of the 6 you listed are either impossible, not viable or unsafe as fuck adding on the fact that theyre d4d

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

true math

what you listed is 6 of what youre gonna do if i neutral crouch and 1 thing ill catch if im neutral crouching

logic= im gonna do what the 6 things are stopped by and stop only when i read that 1 thing

not even mentioning over half of the 6 you listed are either impossible, not viable or unsafe as fuck adding on the fact that theyre d4d

What I listed is what i'm gonna do if you're crouch blocking. If you're neutral crouching I could give a damn. I get hit by 3% and a 3-5% block string if you somehow get lucky. If you don't I get 30%+, cool.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm not gonna teleport a naked 214, I have 10 frames to react to the clone and hit you with the 5 frame instant tele 3. If you honestly believe that Sub out footsies Lao though, i'm done bro lol. You can't D1 so you're fastest move is as fast as mine, but mine is safe. Whatevs though, i'm out.

teleport- 25-31 startup

read subs frame data

then read kls frame data

then when you understand your own characters pressure you can come back and discuss politely without just walking away from a public thread meant to help people understand the matchup just because you cant argue.

 

[Qwark28]

What I listed is what i'm gonna do if you're crouch blocking. If you're neutral crouching I could give a damn. I get hit by 3% and a 3-5% block string if you somehow get lucky. If you don't I get 30%+, cool.

3% blockstring vs 8% from d4 and 214 clone

30% no meter spin on hit
31-38% no meter punish on blocked spin

que?

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

3% blockstring vs 8% from d4 and 214 clone

30% no meter spin on hit
31-38% no meter punish on blocked spin

que?

Dude, He said it was 9 frame start-up T_T. You guys need to stop listing shitty frame data and then calling me out when I agree with you... Why didn't you quote that. I tried not to get irritated, but you sound like a dumbass lol. Neutral crouching on read is as fucking dumb as a random spin, except I get a combo.... You can't poke out of a damn 21 if the 2 hits you on crouch block.

Lol, the thing is though i'll have the meter to break if you're sitting there blocking trying to read a damn spin the whole game... If I block a D4 I get meter, If you don't D4 I get meter. You ONLY get meter if you land a D4 which can only be done on READ (which fucking means guess) like you said.

 

[Big Pampering]

@Qwark The reason this MU is hard is because Sub can't keep Lao out and Lao out footsies sub. Sub can't pressure with 212, sub can't 2 1 4 ice clone because it's -24 and Lao can tele right back in for pressure. Lao can jump and and mix up with tele shenanigans on every character, it's not MU specific. The 1 in 2 1 is 11 frames, you only have 3 frames to execute your D4 and you have to worry about 6 different options if you're not neutral crouching bro.

actually that is not true, I asked somberness a long time ago and he also added it into the frame data, the 1 in 21 comes out at 23 frames. if it really came out in 11 frames kung lao wouldnt have to spin at all because he would have an 11 mid hitting string. if this were true, any time he blocked a d1/d3 he would get a free 21 and he would also get a free 21 if he hit you with a d3/d4 which is obviously not the case.

believe me I have tried everything to find a way to make kung lao compensate for him not having a mid, if there really was a way to make him have a ''mid'' he would already be better than kabal and kenshi.

im always gonna crouch block when youre in my face, im just never gonna crouch block when im reading a 21

this is what a character CAN do, matchups are not based on READS, otherwise i may as well just say im gonna crossup your tele 1 grab and punish spin all day but that aint sub specific.

stop taking reads into account, take into what can be done and while accounting risk/reward.

d4 and clone are still really great tools in this matchup, just because the clone can't trap kung lao doesnt mean he can't use it to occupy space, which makes f3 somewhat risky to use and dive kick cannot be randomly used like in a lot of matchups because the clone can occupy that space.

d4 is 8 frames which is great, but it doesnt matter whether it is 12 frames or 8 frames because you will always be able to poke kung lao on neutral if he tries to pressure with a string. the fact that your d4 is even faster than his d3 is also great. you shouldn't focus on playing keep away against kung lao because youre going to fail. just accept the fact that you have to play kung laos game and beat him in his own game.

If i recall correctly kung lao can poke you out of standing 2 even if you hit him with a standing with a d4 because of his hitbox. but thats okay if you hit him with a d4 and he doesnt respect you just d4 him again for 3% until he does respect you. in bad matchups, d4 into grab is always a good tool imo, once he respects your d4. if he can uppercut you out of standing 2 after d4 on hit just do a d4 and stand there if you think he is going to do that, let him whiff the uppercut and whiff punish it for full combo, kung lao does this against a lot of characters as well and people tend to get really predictable with their uppercuts sometimes.

dont even bother cornering kung lao because that is not going to happen. you should just play the game midscreen to upclose, which is the best option imo.

 

[Qwark28]

actually that is not true, I asked somberness a long time ago and he also added it into the frame data, the 1 in 21 comes out at 23 frames. if it really came out in 11 frames kung lao wouldnt have to spin at all because he would have an 11 mid hitting string. if this were true, any time he blocked a d1/d3 he would get a free 21 and he would also get a free 21 if he hit you with a d3/d4 which is obviously not the case.

believe me I have tried everything to find a way to make kung lao compensate for him not having a mid, if there really was a way to make him have a ''mid'' he would already be better than kabal and kenshi.



d4 and clone are still really great tools in this matchup, just because the clone can't trap kung lao doesnt mean he can't use it to occupy space, which makes f3 somewhat risky to use and dive kick cannot be randomly used like in a lot of matchups because the clone can occupy that space.

d4 is 8 frames which is great, but it doesnt matter whether it is 12 frames or 8 frames because you will always be able to poke kung lao on neutral if he tries to pressure with a string. the fact that your d4 is even faster than his d3 is also great. you shouldn't focus on playing keep away against kung lao because youre going to fail. just accept the fact that you have to play kung laos game and beat him in his own game.

If i recall correctly kung lao can poke you out of standing 2 even if you hit him with a standing with a d4 because of his hitbox. but thats okay if you hit him with a d4 and he doesnt respect you just d4 him again for 3% until he does respect you. in bad matchups, d4 into grab is always a good tool imo, once he respects your d4. if he can uppercut you out of standing 2 after d4 on hit just do a d4 and stand there if you think he is going to do that, let him whiff the uppercut and whiff punish it for full combo, kung lao does this against a lot of characters as well and people tend to get really predictable with their uppercuts sometimes.

dont even bother cornering kung lao because that is not going to happen. you should just play the game midscreen to upclose, which is the best option imo.

fucking thank you, been saying this all along

except the corner part, you CAN shut down kung lao in the corner and punish him, its harder but it can and will be done in a match.

 

[Qwark28]

Dude, He said it was 9 frame start-up T_T. You guys need to stop listing shitty frame data and then calling me out when I agree with you... Why didn't you quote that. I tried not to get irritated, but you sound like a dumbass lol. Neutral crouching on read is as fucking dumb as a random spin, except I get a combo.... You can't poke out of a damn 21 if the 2 hits you on crouch block.

Lol, the thing is though i'll have the meter to break if you're sitting there blocking trying to read a damn spin the whole game... If I block a D4 I get meter, If you don't D4 I get meter. You ONLY get meter if you land a D4 which can only be done on READ (which fucking means guess) like you said.

bro, have some respect and discuss shit politely, i didnt call you any names and i dont like to mention rules.

neutral crouch means D4, it will mean nothing else.

if 21 is read you can neutral crouch, d4 in neutral crouch and 2 whiffs while you hit him.

yes its a read but its also something viable that i CAN DO, its a TOOL i can use, the guess is AFTER ive established subzeros CAN and CANTS.

the 9f part was true, thats the startup from your side, not the whole teleport.

and even if it was wrong its not guys when im listing frame data straight of the KL frame data thread and using " that sz player doesnt know my chars frame data so i shouldnt either" aint no excuse if thats what you were looking for.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

"You will always be able to poke kung Lao on Neutral" in other words "You will always be able to poke Kung Lao if you're sitting there like a dumbass not blocking waiting to blow up a string that you don't know he will use" Sounds good bro

I like how every sub agrees the damn MU is 6-4 or worse, but what you guys are fucking arguing sounds like he has an answer to every tool Lao uses. Like I said, i'm done.

Makes sense that it's 23, I guess it starts on the 11th frame.

Anyway bro, anybody using sub who thinks they're gonna out footsie or D4 me all damn day, please come and play. Like forreal.
Psn: OneOddessy, The_McJohn

I'm outta this shit, Drama Drama Drama.

 

[Qwark28]

"You will always be able to poke kung Lao on Neutral" in other words "You will always be able to poke Kung Lao if you're sitting there like a dumbass not blocking waiting to blow up a string that you don't know he will use" Sounds good bro

I like how every sub agrees the damn MU is 6-4 or worse, but what you guys are fucking arguing sounds like he has an answer to every tool Lao uses. Like I said, i'm done.

Makes sense that it's 23, I guess it starts on the 11th frame.

Anyway bro, anybody using sub who thinks they're gonna out footsie or D4 me all damn day, please come and play. Like forreal.
Psn: OneOddessy, The_McJohn

I'm outta this shit, Drama Drama Drama.

good job not reading or understanding my posts, not blocking means ACTIVELY POKING.

we didnt say he has tools to make it even, the original post even says its 6,5 in decimals imo.

the 23 is the duration, not the startup.

if youre not gonna read or dont know basic logic then please stay the fuck out of my threads because youre not only wasting your time but mine and i really dont fucking like being flamed at and wanting to facedesk everytime you quote me.

thank you, Sub-Zero Nazi squad.

 

[Big Pampering]

fucking thank you, been saying this all along

except the corner part, you CAN shut down kung lao in the corner and punish him, its harder but it can and will be done in a match.

be sure to check the part about low hitbox characters being able to poke subzero out of his standing 2 after d4 on hit though, Ive heard tom brady say it a while ago and am positive is is possible since I do d3 him out of his follow up I believe, its a long time ago since Ive played the matchup.

about the corner part, it is very situational, first of all kung lao can't have meter and even then you would making it hard on yourself by trying to corner him, its just not how the matchup should be played imo because subzero would have given me a harder time by doing what I just described.

 

[ryublaze]

Can I join the Sub-Zero Nazi squad?

 

[Qwark28]

be sure to check the part about low hitbox characters being able to poke subzero out of his standing 2 after d4 on hit though, Ive heard tom brady say it a while ago and am positive is is possible since I do d3 him out of his follow up I believe, its a long time ago since Ive played the matchup.

about the corner part, it is very situational, first of all kung lao can't have meter and even then you would making it hard on yourself by trying to corner him, its just not how the matchup should be played imo because subzero would have given me a harder time by doing what I just described.

yes, the 2 whiffing is HUGE on all chars in whiffs against, because his 21/22 essentialy becomes as slow as the second hit of the string.

kung lao can have meter, hes just forced to actually make a good read to get out because subzero can finally catch up and punish his mobiity options.

about the 1 meter comment, ex teleport can be blown up in many ways, its not the godlike tool everyone thinks, it still remains a mixup.

 

[Big Pampering]

good job not reading or understanding my posts, not blocking means ACTIVELY POKING.

we didnt say he has tools to make it even, the original post even says its 6,5 in decimals imo.

the 23 is the duration, not the startup.

if youre not gonna read or dont know basic logic then please stay the fuck out of my threads because youre not only wasting your time but mine and i really dont fucking like being flamed at and wanting to facedesk everytime you quote me.

thank you, Sub-Zero Nazi squad.

23 IS the startup of the 1 in 2(1). jeez listen: if it started on 11 frames it would beat a regular d4 at point blank range.

 

[Qwark28]

23 IS the startup of the 1 in 2(1). jeez listen: if it started on 11 frames it would beat a regular d4 at point blank range.

the KL frame data thread says this

individual-11
cumulative-23

no it wouldnt, the d4 would still be faster in theory

 

[Big Pampering]

the KL frame data thread says this

individual-11
cumulative-23

no it wouldnt, the d4 would still be faster in theory

ofcourse it is, but the indivdual frame data is pretty much irrelevent because you can't do the 1 in 21 without doing the 2. the only relevant number here is 23 frames. if you do a 21 on a neutral crouching character, the character would get hit on the 23rd frame.

also anyone who knows the ex teleport should know it is overrated, it is only good on oki imo and the tele 1 whiff grab is just to get in someones face with armor.

 

[Wildabeast]

yes, the 2 whiffing is HUGE on all chars in whiffs against, because his 21/22 essentialy becomes as slow as the second hit of the string.

kung lao can have meter, hes just forced to actually make a good read to get out because subzero can finally catch up and punish his mobiity options.

about the 1 meter comment, ex teleport can be blown up in many ways, its not the godlike tool everyone thinks, it still remains a mixup.

People think EX teleport is a god like tool? I thought that ended the second it was discovered that you can just walk away from it.

 

[Qwark28]

ofcourse it is, but the indivdual frame data is pretty much irrelevent because you can't do the 1 in 21 without doing the 2. the only relevant number here is 23 frames. if you do a 21 on a neutral crouching character, the character would get hit on the 23rd frame.

also anyone who knows the ex teleport should know it is overrated, it is only good on oki imo and the tele 1 whiff grab is just to get in someones face with armor.

I read it as 7f 2 11f followup 1 and 23 duration

good to know it takes ages tho

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

be sure to check the part about low hitbox characters being able to poke subzero out of his standing 2 after d4 on hit though, Ive heard tom brady say it a while ago and am positive is is possible since I do d3 him out of his follow up I believe, its a long time ago since Ive played the matchup.

about the corner part, it is very situational, first of all kung lao can't have meter and even then you would making it hard on yourself by trying to corner him, its just not how the matchup should be played imo because subzero would have given me a harder time by doing what I just described.

This happens when you hit d4 at max range. the +8 advantage doesn't allow for him to dash and do a standing 2.
The only way SZ gets a true blockstring on low hitbox is if he hits d4 where standing 2 doesn't need a dash.

 

[Obs_SmSwag]

good job not reading or understanding my posts, not blocking means ACTIVELY POKING.

we didnt say he has tools to make it even, the original post even says its 6,5 in decimals imo.

the 23 is the duration, not the startup.

if youre not gonna read or dont know basic logic then please stay the fuck out of my threads because youre not only wasting your time but mine and i really dont fucking like being flamed at and wanting to facedesk everytime you quote me.

thank you, Sub-Zero Nazi squad.

Lol, you ass head! "Actively poking" will get your ass whiff punished or back in pressure on block like i've said at least 5 times now. I'm gonna ask you one question and I want an honest question.

Do you really think it's a good idea to sit back or at point blank neutral crouching on Lao?

Also, side note for you pussies: Teleport is not 9 frames of anything. Those were bullshit statistics that you blew me up for.... Please tell me you're on psn or coming to evo. Seriously, I've seen you're matches bro, you don't have the damn skill to do half of the things you're saying... This argument will end with one of us getting bodied or you shutting the fuck it, real talk.

Somebody please lock or clean up this damn thread, this is the most bullshit theory fighter drama I've ever heard.

 

[Qwark28]

Can I join the Sub-Zero Nazi squad?

yes you can, we currently specialise in gathering in circles around the offenders and beating them with the blunt end of the ice sword.

 

[Qwark28]

Lol, you ass head! "Actively poking" will get your ass whiff punished or back in pressure on block like i've said at least 5 times now. I'm gonna ask you one question and I want an honest question.

Do you really think it's a good idea to sit back or at point blank neutral crouching on Lao?

Also, side note for you pussies: Teleport is not 9 frames of anything. Those were bullshit statistics that you blew me up for.... Please tell me you're on psn or coming to evo. Seriously, I've seen you're matches bro, you don't have the damn skill to do half of the things you're saying... This argument will end with one of us getting bodied or you shutting the fuck it, real talk.

Somebody please lock or clean up this damn thread, this is the most bullshit theory fighter drama I've ever heard.

lolol never played on nothin but stream and not even vs lao

 

[Big Pampering]

This happens when you hit d4 at max range. the +8 advantage doesn't allow for him to dash and do a standing 2.
The only way SZ gets a true blockstring on low hitbox is if he hits d4 where standing 2 doesn't need a dash.

yes you can, we currently specialise in gathering in circles around the offenders and beating them with the blunt end of the ice sword.

In that case everytime kung lao does 21/1121 on block which means youre at neutral at point blank range and you guessed he was not going to spin by doing a d4, you will get a free blockstring follow up.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

In that case everytime kung lao does 21/1121 on block which means youre at neutral at point blank range and you guessed he was not going to spin by doing a d4, you will get a free blockstring follow up.

that is where a majority of SZ's damage comes from