Match-up Discussion - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GM Match Ups

[Swordzman321]

Does anyone have any specifics on the Kung lao match-up? Not to say it's a difficult match up, It seems relatively even to me. But curious about other opinions or experiences

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Does anyone have any specifics on the Kung lao match-up? Not to say it's a difficult match up, It seems relatively even to me. But curious about other opinions or experiences

Don't jump

He's a character who relies a lot on conditioning and footsies to get in, in theory this makes Clone really nice in the neutral, but his Overhead has a nice disjointed hitbox on the other hand, also his D1 is pretty nice against Clone for some reason. Get him in the corner, hopefully predict/read the armour and go from there, because the risk reward everywhere else on the screen is definitely in his favour. I wouldn't say it's an even match up at all. He basically beats GM at just about everything except for the corner game, you gotta make that clone pull weight for you in the neutral I think. More specific than that I don't really know lol I play the two characters but never actually against each other outside of Practice mode lol

 

[Swordzman321]

Don't jump

He's a character who relies a lot on conditioning and footsies to get in, in theory this makes Clone really nice in the neutral, but his Overhead has a nice disjointed hitbox on the other hand, also his D1 is pretty nice against Clone for some reason. Get him in the corner, hopefully predict/read the armour and go from there, because the risk reward everywhere else on the screen is definitely in his favour. I wouldn't say it's an even match up at all. He basically beats GM at just about everything except for the corner game, you gotta make that clone pull weight for you in the neutral I think. More specific than that I don't really know lol I play the two characters but never actually against each other outside of Practice mode lol

Guess I have bad experience with the MU then, But i haven't had much trouble with lao. Your response was more or less exactly what i was looking for though, watch for his spins and the disjointed hitboxes, keep corner control and all should be good. Is the gist of what i got from your post

 

[seakaybe]

I struggle with the Kung Lao match-up, it's probably one of my worst. I fair better with Cryo then I do GM if I can't corner Lao but I still feel that everything I do he has an answer for. Where are the gaps in his strings to EX out of?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I struggle with the Kung Lao match-up, it's probably one of my worst. I fair better with Cryo then I do GM if I can't corner Lao but I still feel that everything I do he has an answer for. Where are the gaps in his strings to EX out of?

There is a gap in F23, and 44. However, a good Lao won't use either as openers so it's kinda shit information, however 44 is his highest damage convert after catching you with something into Hat Spin and the timing is tight (2 frames) so if he fucks that up there's an opportunity there, however once again a good Lao won't be using the 44 convert if he can't do it consistently, because it's just a good way to drop the combo. F23 is somewhat more viable, second hit is a low, but its still a really long normal that I hate throwing out, because it's death on whiff and a good opponent won't be caught out by the low anyway, so as Tempest F2xxHatSpin is just as good, F0xy said the same. Other than that, 112124 can sometimes have whiffs in the middle of the string somewhere but theres no way to make that consistent I believe.

I think Cryo is better for this match up to be honest. He brings the risk/reward back towards your favor a bit, although I think Lao still dominates the neutral and wins on damage, and Hammer is a much safer overhead which is important because Tempest can punish B2 so hard

 

[RM Ree]

I'd like a reliable way to beat teleport. That thing is a nightmare online.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I'd like a reliable way to beat teleport. That thing is a nightmare online.

Granted I haven't been seriously playing for that long... but it seems like it's just one of those bullshit moves online. A 7-frame standing 1 into follow-up on reaction should pretty much be a 10/10 proposition. But it's clearly option-1 for a lot of KL players (or Shinnok, or Raiden, etc.).

It's online teleports in general, has been since MKD. Especially those that don't have the traditional "roll" animation on block (or are otherwise highly punishable).

 

[RM Ree]

I do so appreciate the threat of a full screen strike/ throw mix up at any given time. Keeps me appreciating the netcode. Having said that, I haven't been in the lab with this move much. I'll find something.

 

[seakaybe]

I do so appreciate the threat of a full screen strike/ throw mix up at any given time. Keeps me appreciating the netcode. Having said that, I haven't been in the lab with this move much. I'll find something.

Have you seen Madzin footage against foxy grandpa? He completely dominated the teleport with a standing 1. I wouldn't think that it would work against all teleports but is seems very effective against Lao.

That's not online though

 

[RM Ree]

@seakaybe I remember that match, it was great. Stand 1 I'll have to practice with.

For raw teleport options, I found NJP is a decent option, but loses to the OH. For now my alternative is to straight up just hold forward. Every option Lao has here whiffs, and SZ gets a free b2/ b12, whatever you're into (f4 and jip are caught by the hat). This is a little more inconsistent when faced with hat spin > teleport, but you can swing right through the hat when going for the punish.

For a checkmate option, when KL does spinning hat > teleport, hold x-ray. He doesn't even have a chance to come out of the ground before the hat hits SZ's parry, freezing him. High cost, but it's a sure thing if you need the kill.

 

[AK cyusstrike]

How do I deal with Cassie under pressure other than block and eat chip damage all day. Hollywood variation I know keep her out with clone but what else

 

[RM Ree]

I guess you should learn which strings she's using to pressure you first. Are we talking about her 50/50's or the + mid hitting strings?

 

[Creepy00]

Any tips against Aftershock Tremor? His air quake makes subzero iceclone irrelevant in the MU.

 

[AK cyusstrike]

I guess you should learn which strings she's using to pressure you first. Are we talking about her 50/50's or the + mid hitting strings?

Her mid + strings I know you can armor through the string ending with the straight kick and 332

 

[Espio]

EX-Punchwalk makes it extremely hard to do, this is possibly Goro's best match up, even if it isn't necessarily slanted his way its still better than his other ones

It's probably 5-5 or 6-4, but it's definitely not Goro's best match up.

Mileena is probably his best, hard 6-4 his favor honestly. Goro also beats Lackey Ferra/Torr and Balanced Kenshi. There might be others, but I don't know the match ups yet to say for certain. Apparently REO believe he beats Jason as do several solid Jason players too.Not hard to believe either so that's four off the top of my head that are better. Beating Sub-Zero isn't hard to believe either, at least not Grandmaster.

Even before Goro got buffed he beat Piercing/Ravenous Mileena 6-4 and Lackey 6-4 too. Don't believe the hype or in this case the downplay lol.

Not to derail the thread. Back on topic, it's just a boring match up, but Goro definitely ha super good options versus Sub-Zero. Being able to armor through the low starter cancelled into ex iceball is good stuff too and if I'm not mistaken Goro can punish his overhead with command grab too.

 

[ChaosTheory]

What's the punish for Goro's Tele-Stomp, while we're talking about him? I think I've played one Goro ever, so I'm severely lacking in knowledge.

 

[RM Ree]

The $5 you have to pay to pick this piece of trash makes me happy he's bottom tier. Scum bag NRS.

 

[Creepy00]

I think Cryomancer may be better against Goro, he doesn't have to worry about ex punchwalk as much since you can reset with f12 and jump over after a Hammer hard knockdown.

 

[RM Ree]

@AK cyusstrike I played with a few good Cassie mains lately. I've got some options if you'd like to try them out.

I found a lot of Cassie players will try to low poke after a + string, then try to keep pressure if the poke hits. Afterwards, they go for the strike/ throw mix up or another + string using their adv as a frame trap. It's similar to the way SZ can control space with his d4, then use it's hit adv to go into his pressure. The difference is she can force her poke in pressure where as we have to hunt for it in the neutral.

I let the first few block strings rock just to see what would happen. Tried to jump out and poke back, no dice. What was effective was armoring through the string itself (between 2nd and 3rd hits) and armoring through the following poke on a read. Back dash was a strong option mid screen, or blocking Cassie's follow up poke and checking her back with d4. Even jumping out after blocking the low poke following her + string worked. The meta progressed to Cassie ending her + string 1 hit early, giving me more breathing room, more often. She even attempted to zone when I started controlling the neutral so be ready to trade ice ball/ ice blast for gun shots.

It's a fun MU at a high level, especially since we gain meterless b33 conversions to kind of even things out.

 

[RM Ree]

Discussing the Sun God Kotal/ GM Sub match up in the Kotal threads. Pretty interesting if you're into that kinda thing.

In the mean time, massive Tanya punish if you block ex Low Drill Kick in the corner, similar to blocking Quan's trance:
reversal ex statue, f42 xx shatter, 242, 123 xx slide - 1 bar, 45% SZ must be close to Tanya as she attempts to wake up.

 

[RagingRicans]

How would you guys rate the HQT vs Grandmaster match up?

I think its absolutely garbage and the Sub can only win by completely outplaying and reading the opponent. This guy feels its even or 6-4 @JDM

 

[zoofs]

How would you guys rate the HQT vs Grandmaster match up?

I think its absolutely garbage and the Sub can only win by completely outplaying and reading the opponent. This guy feels its even or 6-4 @JDM

its bad but I don't think its subs worst mu. It's a hard 6-4 or 7-3 imo but I'd say aftershock is worse

 

[JDM]

Is aftershock really that bad? Why exactly? Pred vs Sub is terrible honestly, probably 3-7 pred imo I just like messing with Ricans. :3

 

[zoofs]

Is aftershock really that bad? Why exactly? Pred vs Sub is terrible honestly, probably 3-7 pred imo I just like messing with Ricans. :3

does better in the neutral and has a tool that blows up any use of clone + iceball whatsoever, as well as has a couple other options for clone

basically just have to use sub fundamentals and he kinda outclasses there, lots of other reasons that I don't feel like explaining but maybe ricans has something to say

 

[RM Ree]

Can GM react to Tremors rock throw cancel with a reversal clone? Clone eats the rock every time if he throws it, and if he cancels we're in neutral with a wall out. Is my train of thought on track here or can Tremor blow us up for this?