Sub-Zero General Discussion

[Amplified$hotz]

What do you guys lead into after freeze for the most damage?

Catching my opponent with an ice klone or freeze ball I do 30 hit Kombos that amount to barely 30% damage with Sareena lmao.

Not sure if I’m not capitalizing correctly but the damage that comes after freezing the opponent is so disheartening that I need to figure something else out.

I use sonya so I do b2, b2, jf21xxkameo, jf12, 3xxslide.

Without kameo probably b2, b2, jf12, f12xxslide

If I freeze them full screen I just do slide.

 

[Gito666]

What do you guys lead into after freeze for the most damage?

If close enough to a grounded frozen opponent, I do: (bk = Sareena back kameo)

jip, f12 xx bk, f12 xx bk, b2, b2, j12, f12 xx slide.

It's just over 40% I believe. If anyone knows something better, I'd also like to know!

Edit: my bad, just tested, and the above kombo only does 330 lol. I was thinking of my main Sub kombo starting with f12 xx bk that does 399 dmg. Sorry!

 

[Dankster Morgan]

What do you guys lead into after freeze for the most damage?

Catching my opponent with an ice klone or freeze ball I do 30 hit Kombos that amount to barely 30% damage with Sareena lmao.

Not sure if I’m not capitalizing correctly but the damage that comes after freezing the opponent is so disheartening that I need to figure something else out.

No that’s pretty much it. I’m getting 27% kameo-less and meterless off a freeze. Kameos like Sonya, Lao, and Goro will do a little more off air freezes, or ex DB4. Sareena is good for getting more damage out of opponents frozen in a low position. For example with Mileena ball roll, say you wanted to spend the bar to end a round but obviously it’d be a nightmare to do your normal route of jip F12 cause of her positioning. The first hit of B2 makes them stand and you can cancel that hit into Sareena, then do your preferred route. Other than that yeah there’s not a ton else you can do to get more damage out of it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Welp to make this even worse:

Since EX clone lasts longer, I figured I'd see if 3 bars of Ex clone into ex slide was worth the absurd meter to get the classic setup of slide into clone.

Obviously, it's not worth it, BUT it's not just because the damage is ass, but because it literally doesn't work anywhere but with your back to the corner. Done mid screen, the opponent will fly over sub, and hit the first two clones, and then WHIFF on the 3rd freezing clone because it will have expired by that time.

God forbid he gets a juggle combo off of 3 bars and obscenely telegraphed setups?

Edit-

Oh and unlike rain, he doesn't have a neat kara throw off his overhead, which I expected since it's 1 input vs 2, but still just one more issue.

I chuckled at obscenely telegraphed setups. Whenever I do anything I’m already wincing in advance lmao

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Geras you can zone him out. And df4 makes slows him down making him punishable.

Reiko you have to get good at ducking shurikens. Best you can do is corner him.

Ah yeah that’s probably the best bet vs Reiko. It just sucks that he’s built so much bar throwing shurikens and can likely break when you finally walk him down and touch him, and God forbid he hits you.

Break down the Geras zoning game for me, I must not be getting it. I’ll do DF4 after I block sand trap, but not much else. I can catch him with dicekicks too, and try to stay right at the edge of BF2 range. I could very well just be getting outplayed but I wanna make sure I’m not missing something.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I guess I hadn't been paying enough attention to the animation itself but I was wondering why I was having such a hard time sliding under projectiles consistently, then I watched one of the Tom Brady videos and I feel dumb for not actually looking at the animation. For those of you who don't know, in previous games you could stay in crouch, then just slide on reaction directly out of the crouch, it was really really good. Now, Sub-Zero stands up as part of beginning the slide's animation, so around midscreen and closer you can't sit in crouch and slide a projectile because Sub-Zero will stand up and be hit instead of going under it. What the fuck. Of all the things.

On a side note, I don't think Beta Sub would even have been top 10, but he'd be as good as he ever needed to be. Having a klone up for 1.5 seconds instead of 1.16 seconds absolutely made a difference, but especially the cooldown. The ice klone is only remotely threatening when he has one loaded up, not when its on the screen since it doesn't last long and he's still recovering until it's almost gone. They really really didn't need to make F1 15 frames either, just what the fuck man.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Ah yeah that’s probably the best bet vs Reiko. It just sucks that he’s built so much bar throwing shurikens and can likely break when you finally walk him down and touch him, and God forbid he hits you.

Break down the Geras zoning game for me, I must not be getting it. I’ll do DF4 after I block sand trap, but not much else. I can catch him with dicekicks too, and try to stay right at the edge of BF2 range. I could very well just be getting outplayed but I wanna make sure I’m not missing something.

Basically you have to just spam special moves, and kameo. Geras can’t really do much about ice klone, bf2, df4, kameo projectiles, and the threat of slide. Unless he has his clocks. He’s also easy to oki because his wake-up isn’t very good.

If you’re at 3/4 screen you can increase his move recovery frames with df4, and punish with slide. You can punish his kameos with df4. His advantages are the fact he outdamages you. And he has that hour glass freeze teleport move.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I guess I hadn't been paying enough attention to the animation itself but I was wondering why I was having such a hard time sliding under projectiles consistently, then I watched one of the Tom Brady videos and I feel dumb for not actually looking at the animation. For those of you who don't know, in previous games you could stay in crouch, then just slide on reaction directly out of the crouch, it was really really good. Now, Sub-Zero stands up as part of beginning the slide's animation, so around midscreen and closer you can't sit in crouch and slide a projectile because Sub-Zero will stand up and be hit instead of going under it. What the fuck. Of all the things.

On a side note, I don't think Beta Sub would even have been top 10, but he'd be as good as he ever needed to be. Having a klone up for 1.5 seconds instead of 1.16 seconds absolutely made a difference, but especially the cooldown. The ice klone is only remotely threatening when he has one loaded up, not when its on the screen since it doesn't last long and he's still recovering until it's almost gone. They really really didn't need to make F1 15 frames either, just what the fuck man.

Yeah they suck for that. It’s obvious the community hates sub-zero.

I get teabagged by Ashrah, Baraka, and Raiden players for playing him while he’s bad. I could only imagine if he was good.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yeah they suck for that. It’s obvious the community hates sub-zero.

I get teabagged by Ashrah, Baraka, and Raiden players for playing him while he’s bad. I could only imagine if he was good.

I honest to god don’t see what’s so terrible about the ice klone, there have been numerous other trap type moves that nobody had issues with. Sub is also always gimped to compensate for it, but now it’s not enough for them that the base character sucks, so does the ice klone now, so I just don’t get it. When a character like Mileena is thought to be bad in vanilla MKX or even early MKX Johnny who was fucked but they were just stupid (they literally called him HONEST JOHNNY, you can’t make this shit up), they’re screeching everywhere and other character communities agree with them. Sub is easily bottom 5, maybe bottom 3 and was the only beta character nerfed significantly, and he already wasn’t as good as Kenshi or Johnny. And people prefer it this way. I don’t want to be toxic in threads other than SZ threads because it’s pointless and doesn’t help, but I’m just baffled by it.

And yeah Raiden players on Kombat League at least are absolute cancer, they can’t stand having to wait literally 1 second before they can ass blast you and refuse to learn the matchup. I’ve beat maybe 1 actual good Raiden, the rest have been garabage, but it’s still closer than I feel like it should be simply because of the damage. And by virtue of the string they’re obviously gonna be spamming low profiling our only mid. You have to make a combination of consistently good reads at least at double the rate of the Raiden player and swing for the fences taking risks to open him up to win, but they have the audacity to cry about the ice klone on the mic and call you a pussy when they don’t learn the punishes and wake up Superman every single chance they get. Obviously this doesn’t apply to actual Raiden players, just the degenerates who picked him up because he’s fucked and will drop him if/when he plays like a normal character.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Hey gang!

uh is it me or does it seem sub can keep his opponents out decently well..?

I know I’ve close isn’t the greatest here but I’ve noticed it still keeps people in check. And bf 2 also checks opponents trying to close space…

and then I clone can also check People closing space or who are stringing forward etc

…been using sub for semi offense but also to get people in the head space I want them in..lol

 

[BanTheTesters]

Agreed, he is king of the dumpster. You’ll be able to establish a life lead and force them to come in, which is when Sub is actually pretty damn good. Then Raiden touches you one time and any life lead you established is fucked and you have to chase down this character that absolutely dunks on you with like 20 seconds left.

Damn…this..this right here is accurate..I do like a challenge though. But this is how most matches go until they realized subs strings are heavily unsafe lol

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Damn…this..this right here is accurate..I do like a challenge though. But this is how most matches go until they realized subs strings are heavily unsafe lol

I still think he’s fun, don’t get me wrong, I won’t play an MK game where I don’t like Sub, which is why I quit MK11 pretty early, he was so dull.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Yeah they suck for that. It’s obvious the community hates sub-zero.

I get teabagged by Ashrah, Baraka, and Raiden players for playing him while he’s bad. I could only imagine if he was good.

While I havnt really had to much t bagging via the pc side of things, I have noticed that a TON of people will duck the run back. I’ll win one then they win one and leave or I’ll get my bearings and they decline etc lol

…I’d like the preface that when I was running Johnny before my switch to sub they’d ALWAYS want the run back lol

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Hey gang!

uh is it me or does it seem sub can keep his opponents out decently well..?

I know I’ve close isn’t the greatest here but I’ve noticed it still keeps people in check. And bf 2 also checks opponents trying to close space…

and then I clone can also check People closing space or who are stringing forward etc

…been using sub for semi offense but also to get people in the head space I want them in..lol

Yeah his zoning is good. The issue is once the top tier get in, they do 40%+ and are oppressive up close.

Kameos make it easy to get in this game. Especially sub-zero kameo.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

While I havnt really had to much t bagging via the pc side of things, I havnt noticed that a TON of people will duck the run back. I’ll win one then they when one and leave or I’ll get my bearings and they decline etc lol

…I’d like the preface that when I was running Johnny before my switch to sub they’d ALWAYS want the run back lol

Because when casuals play against sub-zero, they feel like they can’t play the game. For whatever reason.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

If sub-zero is going to have offense, improve his frame data, and strings and damage.

If he’s going to be a defensive character, improve Klone, ice ball, slide, Ex klone, and make ex bf2 plus on block.

Ahe doesn’t have great “get off me” moves either. Getting out of the corner is hard against people who look for ex slide. While raiden can jump in the air and electric fly out??? Cage has a parry and dash?? Ashrah can dash out??

 

[Dankster Morgan]

If sub-zero is going to have offense, improve his frame data, and strings and damage.

If he’s going to be a defensive character, improve Klone, ice ball, slide, Ex klone, and make ex bf2 plus on block.

And getting out of the corner is hard against people who look for ex slide. While raiden can jump in the air and electric fly out.

Zoning is kinda garbage in this game, I’d prefer he have enough damage to actually cash out if he wanted to spend more meter, so that his 2-3 bar combos could actually be worth the meter to make a come back or establish a life lead, but at the cost of all his resources. I think that’s fair because his meter building is good vs most characters. As well as safety to the point he can escape a bad situation (I can elaborate on this if you guys want) rather actually enforce his will. Then he can be a defensive wall.

I think beta Sub worked, and this Sub vs non top tiers works, is not because what he did / does is so crazy, but he was great at denying other characters what they want to do and that’s when the design works. When he is unsafe af and gets his back blown out with a 50% combo and has to go on the offense is when he is miserable to play.

 

[zerosebaz]

I kinda wish Sub could EX clone towards the opponent.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Some interesting Stryker ideas: https://x.com/_arketa_/status/1705660380603732208?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

https://x.com/_arketa_/status/1707461003301060838?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Some interesting Stryker ideas: https://x.com/_arketa_/status/1705660380603732208?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

Alright I dig it, something else to try out

 

[BanTheTesters]

but he was great at denying other characters what they want to do and that’s when the design works.

Solid take and he still is to a certain extent. I’ve notice at least online people start to get a bit Antsy when you start spacing with clone and or using bf 2 and you stop them from stringing forward.

seems Iike shutting down momentum is key here…im curious to see how this plays out in the long run..

Id also like to note that the clock has run out during several matches due to me just denying my opponent entry into my space…interesting stuff the SZ community is cooking with here..

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Solid take and he still is to a certain extent. I’ve notice at least online people start to get a bit Antsy when you start spacing with clone and or using bf 2 and you stop them from stringing forward.

seems Iike shutting down momentum is key here…im curious to see how this plays out in the long run..

Id also like to note that the clock has run out during several matches due to me just denying my opponent entry into my space…interesting stuff the SZ community is cooking with here..

Yes timing people out is so satisfying

 

[Dankster Morgan]

More Raiden stream of consciousness schizo-posting. Some of this is genuinely useful I feel, some of it is just to steamroll the bad Raiden players.

Use Sonya or Goro as your kameo. As we discussed earlier, his F4 string that they’re gonna be using all day unfortunately low profiles F12. Don’t even bother, B34 is what we’re using now because it is easy to confirm into Sonya. He can’t low profile that shit. And using it as our whiff punish saves meter for much needed breaker!

Slide also becomes an armored launcher with those kameos, so it’s another way to get damage, especially if they get cute and start trying to zone us before panic teleporting again. Goro can make EX slide safe from full screen, so that is a pro he has over Sonya, but she has better zoning tools to sit on a life lead, so either is a great choice. Use charged ring, it’s very plus and you can get a deadly vapor in for sure, which we should be doing constantly if possible.

After a slide knockdown, it’s very easy to F1 xx klone to armor break EX Superman. And in the corner, F12 will cause EX Superman to whiff entirely after the slide knockdown, but the downside is Raiden will be at full screen and out of the corner, so I don’t recommend going this route unless you have a substantial life lead to sit on. Which you very well may because if you’re in this situation, you just ended a corner combo. So it’s an option we have, not that I recommend abusing it, because he can easily just get up and block the F1 and punish the klone cancel. Perhaps he starts respecting F12 after you knock him down though then you can start throwing him, dropping a klone in his face (the one thing that's great about the klone in this game is the proximity to the opponent you can place it), or whatever. Enough to stump the jabroni Raiden players we shouldn't lose games to, which is all that matters.

This is not all that hard for a real Raiden player who knows the matchup to overcome, it just makes things suck way less for us. Especially having a replacement for F12 which we obviously rely on a ton, not working well here.

This is alone enough to not lose to the Raiden bandwagoners on Kombat League since they don’t actually know how to play the character. It won’t save us from losses to good or better players, but is enough to avoid humiliation from shit players. We can't hang with the top dogs but we can keep our dignity lol.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Cool potential Sub-Zero skin (and more) on this X page. Hope they release it.

https://x.com/ermaccer/status/1707453097058918901?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

Spoiler: Leaked Sub-Zero skin

 

[Eji1700]

Some interesting Stryker ideas: https://x.com/_arketa_/status/1705660380603732208?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

https://x.com/_arketa_/status/1707461003301060838?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

Ok this is answering some of the questions I’ve had about his kit. Namely what they hell ex dive kick was for and if you can use ground ice on wake up to start reading it.