Sub-Zero General Discussion

[narshkajke]

I have a problem, after doing divekick, I cannot follow up with f12, it's always the neutral 1 that comes out... is it normal?

 

[Eji1700]

I know subzero has real issues, but one thing that kills me is his combo routes are so damn boring, and he's lost some of his signature nonsense. I know he needs real fixes, but if they're going in there anyways i'd like to see-

1. Some better route than double overhead launcher for his bnb. It's just....boring. They've given him a dive kick, a dive kick launcher, gotten back ice clone, air combos, and his best route is "overhead overhead air combo"? Let the man have some style.

2. Related, ice clone into meter slide into full combo is some of the coolest shit in any of the games and i'm baffled it's not in. If they're so afraid of sub converting off clone from throws give it some special state but at least let me have this. God knows he can do it with kameo meter, so it blows my mind he can't otherwise.

3. Also related, has anyone found a real use for meter burn ice clone? I know it "combos" but from my minimal testing/watching, seems like it's just never worth it. If the move is so useless, at least let MB clone just be a longer lasting clone so he can actually do his thing.

I know this is minor in the competitive sense, but god sub has so many interesting mechanics/moves going on, and half of them don't even matter. I'm hoping there was some beta overeaciton mixed with "the casuals play for the first few months and sub will piss them off, so break his legs now and we'll fix it later" marketing plan, but god just let the man do his thing.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I know subzero has real issues, but one thing that kills me is his combo routes are so damn boring, and he's lost some of his signature nonsense. I know he needs real fixes, but if they're going in there anyways i'd like to see-

1. Some better route than double overhead launcher for his bnb. It's just....boring. They've given him a dive kick, a dive kick launcher, gotten back ice clone, air combos, and his best route is "overhead overhead air combo"? Let the man have some style.

2. Related, ice clone into meter slide into full combo is some of the coolest shit in any of the games and i'm baffled it's not in. If they're so afraid of sub converting off clone from throws give it some special state but at least let me have this. God knows he can do it with kameo meter, so it blows my mind he can't otherwise.

3. Also related, has anyone found a real use for meter burn ice clone? I know it "combos" but from my minimal testing/watching, seems like it's just never worth it. If the move is so useless, at least let MB clone just be a longer lasting clone so he can actually do his thing.

I know this is minor in the competitive sense, but god sub has so many interesting mechanics/moves going on, and half of them don't even matter. I'm hoping there was some beta overeaciton mixed with "the casuals play for the first few months and sub will piss them off, so break his legs now and we'll fix it later" marketing plan, but god just let the man do his thing.

I have yet to have a single scenario where EX klone was worth the 2 bars.

 

[Eji1700]

I have yet to have a single scenario where EX klone was worth the 2 bars.

Yeah and I'm willing to bet it won't be found. I'm all for "let it cook" when it comes to new games, as it can take some time for people to really click on how to use a character (just look at rain), but god MB klone is just....awkward as hell? ESPECIALLY for 2 bars.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yeah and I'm willing to bet it won't be found. I'm all for "let it cook" when it comes to new games, as it can take some time for people to really click on how to use a character (just look at rain), but god MB klone is just....awkward as hell? ESPECIALLY for 2 bars.

They didn’t let Sub cook, it’s pretty frustrating that they found the time to nerf him like 10 ways but the game black screens and audio takes a shit every 5 sets.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I have a problem, after doing divekick, I cannot follow up with f12, it's always the neutral 1 that comes out... is it normal?

Combo into stand 12 after a divekick connects

 

[Gito666]

I have a problem, after doing divekick, I cannot follow up with f12, it's always the neutral 1 that comes out... is it normal?

It's also easier to combo from the lower your divekick connects, if I'mnot mistaken. Back jump into divekick usually works better than neutral or forward jump.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Wanted to see what everyone’s thoughts were on this video and if anyone else has tested it. Sub zeros combos working on player 1 side and not player 2 side:

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Wanted to see what everyone’s thoughts were on this video and if anyone else has tested it. Sun zeros combos working on player 1 side and not player 2 side:

It’s a thing and apparently Sub isn’t the only one affected

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Wanted to see what everyone’s thoughts were on this video and if anyone else has tested it. Sun zeros combos working on player 1 side and not player 2 side:

This is embarraing and compromises the integrity of many competitive matches. I honestly thought it would be fixed within a day. But I suppose it’ll take a while to mend. And just our luck, it’s one of sub-zeros best combos too.

Even though the game is great, I’m happy I didn’t buy the early access editions. This disastrous launch doesn’t deserve more than $70+ base fee imo.

This version of the game should be called MK Gamma since we played the beta.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

This is embarraing and compromises the integrity of many competitive matches. I honestly thought it would be fixed within a day. But I suppose it’ll take a while to mend. And just our luck, it’s one of sub-zeros best combos too.

Even though the game is great, I’m happy I didn’t buy the early access editions. This disastrous launch doesn’t deserve more than $70+ base fee imo.

This version of the game should be called MK Gamma since we played the beta.

It has to be a pretty hard to fix issue, but it is shocking it got through. Like there isn't one single person at NRS that played as Sub and learned his combo paths as intimately as us morons on week 3? It must be a bitch to fix, so I feel for whoever has to make that happen. But damn.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I think Sub-Zero players should focus on playing kameos that can combo off of slide.

With all the gaps in this game, it’s an easy 25% - 30% that forces opponents to slow down their offense.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think Sub-Zero players should focus on playing kameos that can combo off of slide.

With all the gaps in this game, it’s an easy 25% - 30% that forces opponents to slow down their offense.

Which is your favorite for this? And your preferred combo?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

after playing more sub on kombat league. He does well against low and mid tiers. But he can barely play the game against top tiers.

Long story short, everything he does is unsafe for 30% damage. The top characters are safe for 45%+ damage into oki.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Which is your favorite for this? And your preferred combo?

On second thought it might not be worth the risk.

ex slide, sonya kameo, b2, j12 sonya kameo, 3xxslide for a measly 26%

 

[Dankster Morgan]

after playing more sub on kombat league. He does well against low and mid tiers. But he can barely play the game against top tiers.

Long story short, everything he does is unsafe for 30% damage. The top characters are safe for 45%+ damage into oki.

Agreed, he is king of the dumpster. You’ll be able to establish a life lead and force them to come in, which is when Sub is actually pretty damn good. Then Raiden touches you one time and any life lead you established is fucked and you have to chase down this character that absolutely dunks on you with like 20 seconds left. Most Raiden and Baraka players I’ve beat are just inexplicably shit at the ice klone
Edit: he does well against Cage depending on kameo, but Cage + Sektor is tough for him to deal with because projectiles and launching punish for klone cancels. My perception could be skewed because I have yet to play a Cage that isn’t hell bent on breaking the world record for dash blocking into the ice klone as many times as possible

 

[Dankster Morgan]

On second thought it might not be worth the risk.

ex slide, sonya kameo, b2, j12 sonya kameo, 3xxslide for a measly 26%

Perhaps not, but Goro can make it -5 from full screen at least. Think of it like a 1 bar high damage projectile but Sub is the projectile lmao

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Agreed, he is king of the dumpster. You’ll be able to establish a life lead and force them to come in, which is when Sub is actually pretty damn good. Then Raiden touches you one time and any life lead you established is fucked and you have to chase down this character that absolutely dunks on you with like 20 seconds left. Most Raiden and Baraka players I’ve beat are just inexplicably shit at the ice klone

You have to open them up repeatedly while only Getting opened up once or twice per round max. He has no options against competent players who play top tier.

It honestly feels like Sub and the top tiers are playing a totally different game. Here’s one example… there are so many punishable moves in this game with push back. Yet sub-zero doesn’t get that luxury at all. All of his unsafe moves are easy punishes. While Kung Lao and Ashrah can fly in the air and change their landing.

Like Kung Lao can whiff b2 and still recover. Kitana can whiff her moves and still recover. But Sub’s back 2 is just sooooooo good that it needs a million recovery frames.

Again that’s not bad in an honest game. But in this game where characters get away with all types of stuff, it feels like he’s playing a different game.

Another example is divekick, Kung Lao can divekick, land in your face and start hitting you before you know what’s happening (if you’re not looking for it). Sub-zeros dive kick, you could never do that.

I’m not comparing because I want sun to have the same, it’s just that these characters have sooo many options. While sub barely had a few. Then they nerfed his few options and let worse stuff fly.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You have to open them up repeatedly while only Getting opened up once or twice per round max. He has no options against competent players who play top tier.

Exactly and aside from doing something risky, you’re doing your damage almost entirely from capitalizing on their mistakes. You almost have to play like kind of a lunatic to try and get that life lead, so things like armor launching slide with kameo is a good idea. Until something happens to these characters, we can’t get caught in the weeds of risk/reward too much because it’ll never never never be in our favor against these characters.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Exactly and aside from doing something risky, you’re doing your damage almost entirely from capitalizing on their mistakes. You almost have to play like kind of a lunatic to try and get that life lead, so things like armor launching slide with kameo is a good idea. Until something happens to these characters, we can’t get caught in the weeds of risk/reward too much because it’ll never never never be in our favor against these characters.

Yeah they need to buff sub-zero. Surprisingly he does okay against Kenshi. Until Sento ghost comes out.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

It’s very early, but this is what I think about sub-zeros matchups after playing a lot of sets. I mainly play sub with Sonya.

Kitana: Advantage
Reiko: Disadvantage
Reptile: Advantage
Shang Tsung: Even
Scorpion: Even
Nitara: Even
Havik: Even
Tanya: Even
Sindel: Disadvantage (Sub-zero kameo may make it even)
Johnny Cage: Even
Ashrah: Even (Maybe disadvantage)
Kenshi: Even
Raiden: Disadvantage
Mileena: Even
Smoke: Even
Liu Kang: Even (maybe advantage)
Li Mei: Even
Rain: Advantage
Baraka: Even (Maybe disadvantage)
Geras: Even (maybe advantage)
Kung Lao: Even

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

It’s very early, but this is what I think about sub-zeros matchups after playing a lot of sets. I mainly play sub with Sonya.

Kitana: Advantage
Reiko: Disadvantage
Reptile: Advantage
Shang Tsung: Even
Scorpion: Even
Nitara: Even
Havik: Even
Tanya: Even
Sindel: Disadvantage (Sub-zero kameo may make it even)
Johnny Cage: Even
Ashrah: Even (Maybe disadvantage)
Kenshi: Even
Raiden: Disadvantage
Mileena: Even
Smoke: Even
Liu Kang: Even (maybe advantage)
Li Mei: Even
Rain: Advantage
Baraka: Even (Maybe disadvantage)
Geras: Even (maybe advantage)
Kung Lao: Even

Let me know what you guys think.

I haven't played enough against the entire cast to have a complete opinion but I appreaciate you getting the ball rolling on the conversation. I haven't played one single Shang, Tanya, or Nitara for example.
I agree that he probably beats Rain.
I think he probably loses to Baraka.
I could see Sub ending up beating Smoke, Cage, and like you said, Liu Kang.
I don't think SZ cameo is enough to make Sindel even but I see the logic (does ice armor negate scream or something? or is it something else?)
Raiden feels terrible as we have talked about, and of course his F4 leading to 50% damage can low profile F1, the mother fucker.
Obviously my opinion will change a ton, but that's where I'm at right now.

How are you playing the Geras and Reiko matchup?

 

[ShujinkHoe]

What do you guys lead into after freeze for the most damage?

Catching my opponent with an ice klone or freeze ball I do 30 hit Kombos that amount to barely 30% damage with Sareena lmao.

Not sure if I’m not capitalizing correctly but the damage that comes after freezing the opponent is so disheartening that I need to figure something else out.

 

[Eji1700]

I have yet to have a single scenario where EX klone was worth the 2 bars.

Welp to make this even worse:

Since EX clone lasts longer, I figured I'd see if 3 bars of Ex clone into ex slide was worth the absurd meter to get the classic setup of slide into clone.

Obviously, it's not worth it, BUT it's not just because the damage is ass, but because it literally doesn't work anywhere but with your back to the corner. Done mid screen, the opponent will fly over sub, and hit the first two clones, and then WHIFF on the 3rd freezing clone because it will have expired by that time.

God forbid he gets a juggle combo off of 3 bars and obscenely telegraphed setups?

Edit-

Oh and unlike rain, he doesn't have a neat kara throw off his overhead, which I expected since it's 1 input vs 2, but still just one more issue.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I haven't played enough against the entire cast to have a complete opinion but I appreaciate you getting the ball rolling on the conversation. I haven't played one single Shang, Tanya, or Nitara for example.
I agree that he probably beats Rain.
I think he probably loses to Baraka.
I could see Sub ending up beating Smoke, Cage, and like you said, Liu Kang.
I don't think SZ cameo is enough to make Sindel even but I see the logic (does ice armor negate scream or something? or is it something else?)
Raiden feels terrible as we have talked about, and of course his F4 leading to 50% damage can low profile F1, the mother fucker.
Obviously my opinion will change a ton, but that's where I'm at right now.

How are you playing the Geras and Reiko matchup?

Geras you can zone him out. And df4 makes slows him down making him punishable.

Reiko you have to get good at ducking shurikens. Best you can do is corner him.