Street Fighter V General Discussion

[Rip Torn]

I can't explain this any simpler than this.

The same % of two numbers is larger if one of the other numbers is.

So if 1000 hp is what you have. And you have 20% damage resistance you gain more hp from the resistance than someone who has 900 hp and 20% damage resistance.

I'm not failing to answer your question, I'm just not confused by the concept of percentages and damage reduction.

Is it possible that cammy can take less damage(number wise not % wise) than other characters in extreme circumstances, yes. Are the small subset of situations in which this happens greatly outweighed by the infinitely larger group of scenarios where it doesn't work out this way? Yes. Obviously.

If there are so many scenarios where it doesn't help Cammy more than Ryu/Ken, why can't you give me one?

We already know that Ken has 100 more health, that part doesn't change. The only thing I want to know is if the damage scaling benefits Cammy or not. I found an example where it does, in fact, benefit her. Now it's your turn. Maybe there is some situation that I have overlooked where Cammy would have been better off if that scaling mechanic was not there.

 

[FL Rushdown]

If there are so many scenarios where it doesn't help Cammy more than Ryu/Ken, why can't you give me one?

We already know that Ken has 100 more health, that part doesn't change. The only thing I want to know is if the damage scaling benefits Cammy or not. I found an example where it does, in fact, benefit her. Now it's your turn. Maybe there is some situation that I have overlooked where Cammy would have been better off if that scaling mechanic was not there.

every other possible situation that isn't (unlikely damage total to threshold into raw single hit super.) literally every situation other than that one. I've said multiple times that cammy is never going to take more damage than they are, but you're going to have to skew the numbers to make her take less. If she takes 50% of her hp in damage into a ca she takes the same dmg as a 1k hp character that does. She can gain ground through niche scenarios but she starts out further behind because that's how %based scaling works on numbers.

I'm also not saying cammy in a vacuum would be better off if it didn't exist, just that characters with more hp have a larger potential benefit compared to her BECAUSE of it. It helps her, but it helps them more. Objectively.

If every person on earth had an extra 5% added to their life savings the people with larger initial savings would gain more through the scaling. I can't believe I have to explain this to an adult. Honestly.

 

[super mario]

any one have a facebook account.

 

[B. Shazzy]

lul

 

[B. Shazzy]

@The Slaj Jazz what do you thibk about this matchup? feels pretty even until I get Vtrigger lul


nevermind this divekick is too real lul

 

[The Slaj Jazz]

@The Slaj Jazz what do you thibk about this matchup? feels pretty even until I get Vtrigger lul


nevermind this divekick is too real lul

Well your just better than me in general but it feels like probably even or slight advantage with Urien but just from his long reaching normals. Idk what to do about divekick

 

[FL Rushdown]

Well your just better than me in general but it feels like probably even or slight advantage with Urien but just from his long reaching normals. Idk what to do about divekick

walk forward and block. With the exception of the ex one and the lk one(only when it hits super low) they're all negative/punishable on block.

So your 3 frame button beats anything he presses(that's not invincible)unless it's a perfectly spaced lk one(then you trade) or an ex one.

 

[Rip Torn]

every other possible situation that isn't (unlikely damage total to threshold into raw single hit super.) literally every situation other than that one. I've said multiple times that cammy is never going to take more damage than they are, but you're going to have to skew the numbers to make her take less. If she takes 50% of her hp in damage into a ca she takes the same dmg as a 1k hp character that does. She can gain ground through niche scenarios but she starts out further behind because that's how %based scaling works on numbers.

I'm also not saying cammy in a vacuum would be better off if it didn't exist, just that characters with more hp have a larger potential benefit compared to her BECAUSE of it. It helps her, but it helps them more. Objectively.

If every person on earth had an extra 5% added to their life savings the people with larger initial savings would gain more through the scaling. I can't believe I have to explain this to an adult. Honestly.

I think the math is deceptive. Because, yes, you have more hitpoints that are being scaled, but it doesn't account for how that plays out in battle. I did more testing and it always seems to work out so Cammy gets those hitpoints back.
I used Ryu and did 2 combos and a throw. I even did his multi-hit CA:

j.HP > cr. HK
forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA

This resulted in Cammy taking 751 dmg and Ken taking 757. So I guess you could say that it worked out better for Ken up until that point because he gets the extra 7 hitpoints total.

Then I did the same three moves in reverse order:

f.HP > DP > CA
forward throw
j.HP > cr. HK

The result was Cammy took 752 damage and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 11 less hitpoints and covers the 7 point difference.

Then I did:

forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA
j.HP > cr. HK

Cammy took 751 dmg and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 12 less hitpoints of damage and covers the 7 point difference.

Objectively, it Benefits Cammy more than it hurts her in this very scientific test (pushes nerd glasses up).

 

[FL Rushdown]

I think the math is deceptive. Because, yes, you have more hitpoints that are being scaled, but it doesn't account for how that plays out in battle. I did more testing and it always seems to work out so Cammy gets those hitpoints back.
I used Ryu and did 2 combos and a throw. I even did his multi-hit CA:

j.HP > cr. HK
forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA

This resulted in Cammy taking 751 dmg and Ken taking 757. So I guess you could say that it worked out better for Ken up until that point because he gets the extra 7 hitpoints total.

Then I did the same three moves in reverse order:

f.HP > DP > CA
forward throw
j.HP > cr. HK

The result was Cammy took 752 damage and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 11 less hitpoints and covers the 7 point difference.

Then I did:

forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA
j.HP > cr. HK

Cammy took 751 dmg and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 12 less hitpoints of damage and covers the 7 point difference.

Objectively, it Benefits Cammy more than it hurts her in this very scientific test (pushes nerd glasses up).

yeah except for the part where you never talk about how cammy wins on the front end by hitting her scaling sooner(by losing more hp) but never mention how 1k hp characters win out on the back end by having larger sections of their health pool scale at higher rates. Not that it's super significant in most cases but it doesn't hurt to have an extra little bit in the last two 15% blocks. Nor do you mention how she can lose points by having her smaller blocks skipped(or by losing larger portions of them when a high damage normal knocks her into a higher tier of scaling) a CA that does 300 dmg will kill her outright at the end and completely skip her last two scaling blocks, but a ken would live to keep fighting. She gains on the front and loses on the back end. And then she dies and you stop counting, when ryu and ken still have damage left to scale.

 

[FL Rushdown]

I think the math is deceptive. Because, yes, you have more hitpoints that are being scaled, but it doesn't account for how that plays out in battle. I did more testing and it always seems to work out so Cammy gets those hitpoints back.
I used Ryu and did 2 combos and a throw. I even did his multi-hit CA:

j.HP > cr. HK
forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA

This resulted in Cammy taking 751 dmg and Ken taking 757. So I guess you could say that it worked out better for Ken up until that point because he gets the extra 7 hitpoints total.

Then I did the same three moves in reverse order:

f.HP > DP > CA
forward throw
j.HP > cr. HK

The result was Cammy took 752 damage and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 11 less hitpoints and covers the 7 point difference.

Then I did:

forward throw
f.HP > DP > CA
j.HP > cr. HK

Cammy took 751 dmg and Ken took 763. So Cammy took 12 less hitpoints of damage and covers the 7 point difference.

Objectively, it Benefits Cammy more than it hurts her in this very scientific test (pushes nerd glasses up).

ran a super scientific test of my own. Only did it one way.

Ryu mp mp xx hp hadoken does 162 dmg unscaled

Cr lk is 20 dmg unscaled

Mp is 60 dmg unscaled.

Cammy gets barely overkilled by

Mp mp xx hp hadoken x 5

Mp x 2

Cr lk x 2

For a grand total of 970(slightly less since it's an overkill) damage total to kill her.

Ken takes the same moves in the same order, plus 5 more cr lks and lives with a little more than a pixel. For a grand total of 1070+ dmg required to kill him.

Bam, he gained more hp than she did from the scaling. Be it ever so slightly.

Edit below.

Redid it with a few different configurations and

F hp cr hp trigger st hk st lk hp dp xx ca does 507 dmg unscaled. Cammy dies outright to two of those(by quite a large margin, she's at maybe 10% when the second ca hits) ken lives and can take another 3 cr lks and stay standing. So he took 1074 dmg and kept trucking, cammy died at a hard amount to quantify but the ca only hit her 6 times and it usually does 350 on 7 hits so it did 300 unscaled. Took her aprox 964 dmg to tap out.

That's 1074 vs 964. A larger amount than I predicted possible so I'm assuming the ca had a weird interaction with scaling or I'm slightly off somewhere(that or we are slightly wrong about where/when scaling takes place and in what amounts). Test it and find out what I fucked up but I double checked.

Also did st hk cc into st hk st lk xx hp dp(311 dmg unscaled).

Cammy dies to that 3 times plus 1 cr lk. So 953 dmg unscaled.

Ken dies to that plus 7 cr lks. 1073. Although the last cr lk overkills so he's closer to 1053+ definitely not less.

So yet again it takes more dmg to kill him than her.

I'd do it using max dmg combos but I don't wanna reveal my secret tech and get people crying about 400 dmg meterless ryu combos. Lemme know if you find any that require less than 100 more dmg to kill ken. This has actually been pretty interesting. Sorry for the slight personal attacks, mighta been a little to rough.

@Rip Torn

Tl;dr 3 separate scenarios where ken takes more than 100 extra damage to kill than cammy.

 

[Rip Torn]

ran a super scientific test of my own. Only did it one way.

Ryu mp mp xx hp hadoken does 162 dmg unscaled

Cr lk is 20 dmg unscaled

Mp is 60 dmg unscaled.

Cammy gets barely overkilled by

Mp mp xx hp hadoken x 5

Mp x 2

Cr lk x 2

For a grand total of 970(slightly less since it's an overkill) damage total to kill her.

Ken takes the same moves in the same order, plus 5 more cr lks and lives with a little more than a pixel. For a grand total of 1070+ dmg required to kill him.

Bam, he gained more hp than she did from the scaling. Be it ever so slightly.

Edit below.

Redid it with a few different configurations and

F hp cr hp trigger st hk st lk hp dp xx ca does 507 dmg unscaled. Cammy dies outright to two of those(by quite a large margin, she's at maybe 10% when the second ca hits) ken lives and can take another 3 cr pls and stay standing. So he took 1074 dmg and kept trucking, cammy died at a hard amount to quantify but the ca only hit her 6 times and it usually does 350 on 7 hits so it did 300 unscaled. Took her aprox 964 dmg to tap out.

That's 1074 vs 964. A larger amount than I predicted possible so I'm assuming the ca had a weird interaction with scaling or I'm slightly off somewhere. Test it and find out what I fucked up but I double checked.

It does 504 the first time on Cammy then the second time it kills her. I don't get a reading on the damage because she ded and I have the health bar set to normal so it won't refill. Where are you seeing that 964 number?

 

[FL Rushdown]

It does 504 the first time on Cammy then the second time it kills her. I don't get a reading on the damage because she ded and I have the health bar set to normal so it won't refill. Where are you seeing that 964 number?

I'm taking the damage that it actually does. Not the scaled damage. It does 507 on gief so that's it's "true" damage value. This lets us know how much hp she'd have with and without the scaling, I thought that'd be useful since we're comparing her hp with/without.

As for the 964 that's the 2 combos unscaled damage minus the unscaled damage of the last hit of the ca(50 dmg). We know the ca misses the last hit cause of the combo counter. So 964 is the maximum damage she could've taken before dying, it's possible that it's lower than that.

Edit: also check the previous post I edited in a 3rd scenario.

 

[LionHeart]

Pro tip; You can test the full unscaled damage of a combo by going into training and setting the 2nd players HP Pool to infinite.

No need to switch to Gief to test out those 500+ dmg combos anymore! Rejoice!

 

[FL Rushdown]

So @Rip Torn I was messing around with the scaling and it seems like even though it doesn't adjust fluidly and takes a hit to register for scaling to start, the combos seem to scale differently which leads me to believe it's self correcting on the fly, adjusting the scaling of the next hit in the combo based on how much dmg the previous hit did and wether or not it was properly scaled. That'd explain why all 3 examples were pretty much spot on with the 107 more dmg to kill ken math from earlier. Seems like cas have a maximum amount of scaling though which is why the numbers were off on that ca one(if this is the case it would only hurt cammy imo). I'd have to test more but I'm tired. Literally all of this could be nonsense btw, just trying to figure out why it's so uniform when I picked random combos. I expected more variance. I actually thought the ca one would have less than 100 dmg difference.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Pro tip; You can test the full unscaled damage of a combo by going into training and setting the 2nd players HP Pool to infinite.

No need to switch to Gief to test out those 500+ dmg combos anymore! Rejoice!

thats good to know, thanks sir.

 

[LionHeart]

CA counts as 1 hit. So Ken at 500HP will take full CA damage regardless of how many hits the CA is.

 

[Rip Torn]

I'm taking the damage that it actually does. Not the scaled damage. It does 507 on gief so that's it's "true" damage value. This lets us know how much hp she'd have with and without the scaling, I thought that'd be useful since we're comparing her hp with/without.

As for the 964 that's the 2 combos unscaled damage minus the unscaled damage of the last hit of the ca(50 dmg). We know the ca misses the last hit cause of the combo counter. So 964 is the maximum damage she could've taken before dying, it's possible that it's lower than that.

Edit: also check the previous post I edited in a 3rd scenario.

CA counts as 1 hit. So Ken at 500HP will take full CA damage regardless of how many hits the CA is.

CA does not count as one hit but there is some sort of maximum scaling on CA's. Multihit CA's will scale with each hit, but once it gets to a certain point, it stops scaling.

 

[FL Rushdown]

CA counts as 1 hit. So Ken at 500HP will take full CA damage regardless of how many hits the CA is.

definitely not true. I just tested and ken at 500 hp only takes 304 dmg from ryu ca and at 600 hp he takes 310 and at 700 he takes 314.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Holy fucking shit the mathletes have hijacked this thread. I'd rather read through Myles Wright's same old whining for another 378 pages than have to read one more post about health scaling.

 

[FL Rushdown]

K @Rip Torn i found the error in the ca one. It does 328 dmg unscaled. Thought it was 350 even. Means that hit did 4 less dmg so it lines back up in the 107 range.

Edit. Wait no I'm wrong again. It was a Denjin ca so it did even more. Meaning it was well over 107 extra ehp. Means ca scaling fucks cammy.

 

[Rip Torn]

I just looked it up, CA's never scale below 50%. They do scale and each hit gets adjusted by where you are on the health bar.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Holy fucking shit the mathletes have hijacked this thread. I'd rather read through Myles Wright's same old whining for another 378 pages than have to read one more post about health scaling.

hey man I'm down for a circle jerk about how shazzy is a god, my Mika is ass, and how Myles thinks every character in the game is bottom 1. However, every once in awhile it's nice to learn something about the game.

 

[LionHeart]

CA does not count as one hit but there is some sort of maximum scaling on CA's. Multihit CA's will scale with each hit, but once it gets to a certain point, it stops scaling.

definitely not true. I just tested and ken at 500 hp only takes 304 dmg from ryu ca and at 600 hp he takes 310 and at 700 he takes 314.

Wow that's new in SFV I'm pretty sure.

 

[Rip Torn]

Wow that's new in SFV I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, it's definitely not like SF4 for CA's. There were times when a Ultra would do like 5% damage in that game. That never happens in SFV.

 

[FL Rushdown]

So I guess we learned it's mathematically, objectively better to use a ca at the end of a combo to finish a round than raw or in an earlier combo. Gotta maximize those resources.