Sonix Fox's Thoughts on MK11

[Eji1700]

Watching their meter is not a real issue. Everyone always watches meter ,and its been part of the NRS skillset since MK9 introduced breakers.

The two big issues I see with this are still:

1. I get a full combo punish if I breaker certain moves.

This means that IF that's unreactable (and it may not be) , players doing the combo will almost always be stuck doing less optimal combos until they get rid of their opponents bar. The risk is great to do otherwise, and if they do you may still be able to fall out of their combo.

2. I really don't get that much on read.

Again comparing this to either Guilty Gear/BB/Injustice (Full reset, with no defensive options for a time) or Killer Instinct ("Full reset" and max damage opportunity), "getting oki with them having no defense" meter is not a very large payoff. If this were mk9 maybe, but i'm not seeing a whole lot of "oh god i need bar NOW" bullshit.

I'll admit it seems better having watched some of the stress test matches just because it takes such a long time for it to replenish, but i'm legit worried that's just because we haven't seen the optimization of the defensive tech yet.

A lot of the people playing weren't willing to sit on it and wait on the breakout (to force more non optimal combos) and certainly weren't abusing the Perfect block as much as they could. Also missed chances to break and punish.

 

[Pizza]

I think TYM is pretty low on toxicity levels.

1. Twitter
2. YouTube
3. Gamefaqs
4. Reddit
5. 4chan

and so on

 

[JBeezYBabY]

Woah champ... I'll all for opinions and all but chip has always been attached to both normals and specials in MK and it has always killed. (IIRC every game has had it.) I'd go as far to say that it's an essential part of the franchise.

It used to be back in the day, yes. But Ive realized fighting games become more hype and exciting when you have an opportunity to come back from a magic pixel. Chip kills eliminates any form of a comeback and learned to appreciate games who changed from the old school way. MK11 should become that change as well.

 

[OzzFoxx]

Can someone answer a question about Sonics complaints that I have? How is it possible to breakaway, which costs two def bars, then immediately wake up launch, which costs one def bar, for a full punish? People keep mentioning how awful this is, but I don’t see how it’s possible as there are only two def bars. Am I missing something?

 

[Jynks]

Lord Brady response to Sonic.

 

[Madog32]

Can someone answer a question about Sonics complaints that I have? How is it possible to breakaway, which costs two def bars, then immediately wake up launch, which costs one def bar, for a full punish? People keep mentioning how awful this is, but I don’t see how it’s possible as there are only two def bars. Am I missing something?

The player who breaks away is not actually "waking up". They are just getting up normally and still have enough time to punish certain moves (like Scorpions chain)

 

[Marinjuana]

It used to be back in the day, yes. But Ive realized fighting games become more hype and exciting when you have an opportunity to come back from a magic pixel. Chip kills eliminates any form of a comeback and learned to appreciate games who changed from the old school way. MK11 should become that change as well.

It wasn't back in the day man, it was always. Was a huge part of MK9 and MKX.(Not to mention Injustice.) Chip killing makes you have to avoid taking damage in late rounds and adds its own mindgames. Any comeback is made better by knowing that it's so difficult to avoid damage.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Flawless blocking should be toned down as I kept launching people mid string for like 35%. I already can now punish moves and strings that are typically safe with flawless block, why should I get to delete you afterwards lmfao. I believe I should only be able to do U3 out of blockstun.

This I think could be a good thing, maybe just reduce damage on the U+2 option. But why are you against something that benefits you greatly? If you are doing so well with it why remove it? Just my thoughts.

I think dot damage being not killing would be ok as so far the utility of those moves are really strong anyways. Killing at the end of the round is just icing on the cake.

I completely disagree with DoT being nerfed in that way. Damage Over Time specials and moves are literally the same as normal moves they just do the damage much slower why give a player an extra lifeline and make them invulnerable just because you don't like dying by DOT. If they are stackable and do way too much damage then by all means Nerf the amount of total damage through scaling.

Offense is nowhere nearly as oppressive as MKX is so I genuinely believe Breakaways should not exist.

I think there are certain situations that Breakaway can be a good mechanic for certain matchups. Let's say Scorpion has better neutral and zoning than another character, it can help that character overcome the matchups but it does need to be adjusted and not allow the person breaking to have advantage.

Meter cooldowns should be way slower too since I felt like I always had meter when I was playing neutral.

Yes I completely agree.

Just delete breakaways that shit puts me on tilt.

Not liking something is not a reason to change game mechanics.

Fatal blows should definitely be death on block. It's a comeback super that keeps respawning if you miss it. If you are gonna insist on keeping them safe, then you should have your one shot that ROUND and if it lands, it doesnt come back, and if it whiffs it shouldnt come back at all that round.

I can agree with this but I'd like more time before changing something so huge this early on.

Otherwise lotsa people in this thread gave me new thoughts to think about! It's the first time a thread hasnt been fully toxic in TYM in a fuckin minute LMFAO.

My favorite Sonic Quote.

 

[callMEcrazy]

Can someone answer a question about Sonics complaints that I have? How is it possible to breakaway, which costs two def bars, then immediately wake up launch, which costs one def bar, for a full punish? People keep mentioning how awful this is, but I don’t see how it’s possible as there are only two def bars. Am I missing something?

In many situations after using breakaway you'll find the opponent in recovery since you falling to the ground made him whiff. So you can simply wakeup normally and start punishing him with a string that launches or cancel into a launching special from a string. You can't wakeup after using breakaway and you don't need it to dish out a full punish.

 

[SaltShaker]

In many situations after using breakaway you'll find the opponent in recovery since you falling to the ground made him whiff. So you can simply wakeup normally and start punishing him with a string that launches or cancel into a launching special from a string. You can't wakeup after using breakaway and you don't need it to dish out a full punish.

Did you watch the Kombat Kast yesterday? If you did, I would assume you would know everything you said here is objectively false. Unless every single match in MK11 is against Scorpion and all breaks are against spear, it simply is not playing out that way in real matches. Many more breaks are leading to block pressure than the "full combo punish" everyone did against that one Scorpion combo.

 

[callMEcrazy]

Did you watch the Kombat Kast yesterday? If you did, I would assume you would know everything you said here is objectively false. Unless every single match in MK11 is against Scorpion and all breaks are against spear, it simply is not playing out that way in real matches. Many more breaks are leading to block pressure than the "full combo punish" everyone did against that one Scorpion combo.

I can't speak for every character since I haven't seen enough of everyone but what I described certainly can happen to other characters than just Scorpion.

Let's take Baraka. After ex-Gutted if you try to juggle with f4~gutted and the opponent uses breakaway I'm quite sure Baraka eats a full punish there. I may have seen it somewhere.

I also remember seeing Skarlet getting combo punished after the opponent uses breakaway after her 212 when she tried to juggle that with either another 212 or 44.

But even when this is not happening the outcomes still don't make sense. When breaks are leading to block pressure the person breaking isn't getting a good deal for using 2 defensive meters. If the tables are turned it is of course even more unfair. At other times players are just bottling their optimal combos out of fear of a breakaway. It's very random and doesn't make much sense to me. Breakaways are adding complexity to the game but not necessarily adding depth.

If NRS is trying to take the crazy out of MK11 and make it more neutral based then why do this? What's so wrong with the old breaker? It resets to neutral. I wouldn't even mind if they did away with breakers altogether.

 

[SaltShaker]

I also remember seeing Skarlet getting combo punished after the opponent uses breakaway after her 212 when she tried to juggle that with either another 212 or 44.

I know Skarlet well at this point, and this is kind of a prime example of why I feel there's no issue. People need time to learn the game. What you see is "look at Skarlet getting punished for doing a combo, unfair". What I see is this-

---You can block during the second 2(1)2 or the 44 after they break. 44 gives you enough time. 212 you need to hit confirm the first two hits, which isn't that hard of a hit confirm. By the time they break, you can not do 21(2) unless you want to be punished. Hit confirm and they fall in front of you, then you can block their follow up, or walk back and punish a S1 (punishing THEM for breaking, no full D meter for 36 seconds). If they don't break you can visually see this and do the full 212 into 44-special. The only time Skarlet is guaranteed to be punished is if they break the second part of 4(4) before you do the special Siphon because of the huge recovery in Siphon. After a hundred games or so I was able to adjust easily around this, adjusting my ender and strats. By the time I hit them again, they likely don't even have 2 D Bars due to using it for other purposes. Imagine after a thousand games instead of 350. Or ten thousand games.---

What has happened is people auto dialing the combo 212, 212, 44-Siphon and saying "wow look how I'm punished for landing a hit". That is the lowest layer of meta, the lowest layer of yomi. Gotta step up the game a notch. I can't go into depth with Scorpion/Baraka as I can with Skarlet, but if my Skarlet knowledge is anything to go by, I am sure it is a very similar type of situation with other characters.

When breaks are leading to block pressure the person breaking isn't getting a good deal for using 2 defensive meters. If the tables are turned it is of course even more unfair. At other times players are just bottling their optimal combos out of fear of a breakaway. It's very random and doesn't make much sense to me. Breakaways are adding complexity to the game but not necessarily adding depth.

If NRS is trying to take the crazy out of MK11 and make it more neutral based then why do this? What's so wrong with the old breaker? It resets to neutral. I wouldn't even mind if they did away with breakers altogether.

That's where I disagree, that above is an explanation of depth and why it is such. Removing it, removes depth at it's simply "push this button and return to neutral". There's no thinking at all involved, just a button push for a reset or a do-over. Unless the argument is you want to do max damage combos at all times without consequence or thought, which I disagree with but respect the opinion, I don't see how the breakers can be argued as unfair or broken. They just require 5 layers from both sides the few times they are available rather than one simplistic layer.

 

[callMEcrazy]

That's where I disagree, that above is an explanation of depth and why it is such. Removing it, removes depth at it's simply "push this button and return to neutral". There's no thinking at all involved, just a button push for a reset or a do-over. Unless the argument is you want to do max damage combos at all times without consequence or thought, which I disagree with but respect the opinion, I don't see how the breakers can be argued as unfair or broken. They just require 5 layers from both sides the few times they are available rather than one simplistic layer.

You seem to think of combos as much more simple than I do. Most characters have distinct optimal combos for various different situations. And knowing them is not enough. You have to be able to execute them in the heat of a match. NinjaKilla is making Dragon's Fire Liu Kang from MKX look very different than in days past just because he can do his hard combos consistently.

Knowing optimal punishes and executing them consistently seem both challenging and satisfying to me. But I can accept that someone else might find it mundane.

 

[SaltShaker]

You seem to think of combos as much more simple than I do. Most characters have distinct optimal combos for various different situations. And knowing them is not enough. You have to be able to execute them in the heat of a match. NinjaKilla is making Dragon's Fire Liu Kang from MKX look very different than in days past just because he can do his hard combos consistently.

Knowing optimal punishes and executing them consistently seem both challenging and satisfying to me. But I can accept that someone else might find it mundane.

I mean, we both agree 100% on this entire post. The only difference is the breaker adds another layer to your combo game. A full damage combo would be different from a wall carry combo, which may be different from a KB combo, which may be different from a combo against someone with 2 D Bars.

For example.

-Wall carry optimal combo? Ok great. Simplified break system merely resets neutral (or no more breaks, just hold damage at all times).

Vs-

-Wall carry optimal combo while facing 2 D Bars and up in life lead? Time to think an extra layer deep. Do a safe no risk no break combo for 23%? Go for full optimal damage and risk getting punish before Siphon or Tentacle? Go for bait combo 2(1) filler and full combo punish their break attempt, leaving them gimped defensively? What will your opponent think to do, can you read it?

Situation A plays out exactly the same 10/10 times. Situation B has multiple variables and will reward the player making better decisions on either side of the fight. Player Y who mashes break every chance they get will be destroyed. Player Z who goes full optimal damage on every touch will be punished for being predictable.

Which system do you think has more depth?

 

[imMORTAL KOMBATant]

I don't think he advocated to take away breakaways just remove recovery on certain moves when breakaway was activated so the person breaking away don't have years of advantage to full combo punish the person who beat the neutral in the first place.

But the person doesn't have years of advantage unless you carelessly dialing full strings. I think breakaways are designed intentionally this way - you have to think about it when you launch.

Let's say your opponent has just woke up and hit you with an U+3, losing 1 offensive+1 defensive meter in the process. Outsmart him, and he can't do anything if he's hit. You can launch him, you can kombo him as you like. Does he have full defensive meter? Use another string and watch out. If he drops out and you're not committed to a Skarlet 2,1,2, your're fine but your opponent is without a defensive meter for a while so he can't even wake-up.

Watch this set: Curbo and Dragon are so smart whenever Beakaway is in play and they're not getting punished because they watch out for it.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

But the person doesn't have years of advantage unless you carelessly dialing full strings. I think breakaways are designed intentionally this way - you have to think about it when you launch.

Let's say your opponent has just woke up and hit you with an U+3, losing 1 offensive+1 defensive meter in the process. Outsmart him, and he can't do anything if he's hit. You can launch him, you can kombo him as you like. Does he have full defensive meter? Use another string and watch out. If he drops out and you're not committed to a Skarlet 2,1,2, your're fine but your opponent is without a defensive meter for a while so he can't even wake-up.

Watch this set: Curbo and Dragon are so smart whenever Beakaway is in play and they're not getting punished because they watch out for it.

That player dropped it and could have full punished it.
Another thing to note is many players are cutting combos short something most don't want. I encourage you to look over the video you linked and you will realize dragon is cutting his combos short because he is afraid of opponents breaker allowing full punish. He broke out and he didn't fully punish it, there was so much more damage to be done than what he did. Dragon, Sonic and many many others have openly said they are limited by combos because of the breakaway punish.
Not to mention certain characters will have an advantage because if this. Certain characters are ground heavy while others are juggle heavy. We only seen 3 characters in the stress test imagine full game.

Besides it's much better if we force delayed knockdown on both players so noone gets advantage. The reward to breaker is you stop tons of damage and push the player away forcing them to rewin neutral.

Allowing a player to break plus get combo off it is completely broke. We allready have a game changer mechanic Flawless Block and Fatal blow, no need for 3.

 

[imMORTAL KOMBATant]

Allowing a player to break plus get combo off it is completely broke. We allready have a game changer mechanic Flawless Block and Fatal blow, no need for 3.

We're seeing this differently so I don't want to force my opinion on you. In my eyes, the more options the better. Besides out of the 3, Breakaway is the one for every skill level. If you're execution is not godlike, you can still think and decide to do it or not to do it. And it is not a full kombo punish be default, it only is when the offensive player is careless. It can be done but it is not an automatic thing. It would be broken if you could punish any attack at any time IMO.

Flawless block is up in the air, only time will tell, how skilled you have to be to use it. Maybe I won't be able to pull it off consistently but I won't cry nerf or get it out because it can be done if I don't like it.

Fatal blow is an entirely different beast and not a defensive option in my eyes. If you're kornered it can be easily stuffed so it's not two hits invincible like X-Rays were, it is not even invincible.

Let's give the new mechanics some time, at least until Combo Breaker.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

We're seeing this differently so I don't want to force my opinion on you. In my eyes, the more options the better. Besides out of the 3, Breakaway is the one for every skill level. If you're execution is not godlike, you can still think and decide to do it or not to do it. And it is not a full kombo punish be default, it only is when the offensive player is careless. It can be done but it is not an automatic thing. It would be broken if you could punish any attack at any time IMO.

Flawless block is up in the air, only time will tell, how skilled you have to be to use it. Maybe I won't be able to pull it off consistently but I won't cry nerf or get it out because it can be done if I don't like it.

Fatal blow is an entirely different beast and not a defensive option in my eyes. If you're kornered it can be easily stuffed so it's not two hits invincible like X-Rays were, it is not even invincible.

Let's give the new mechanics some time, at least until Combo Breaker.

That's something we can agree on. Waiting until game us launched and out for a month before changing characters or game mechanics.

 

[OzzFoxx]

But the person doesn't have years of advantage unless you carelessly dialing full strings. I think breakaways are designed intentionally this way - you have to think about it when you launch.

Let's say your opponent has just woke up and hit you with an U+3, losing 1 offensive+1 defensive meter in the process. Outsmart him, and he can't do anything if he's hit. You can launch him, you can kombo him as you like. Does he have full defensive meter? Use another string and watch out. If he drops out and you're not committed to a Skarlet 2,1,2, your're fine but your opponent is without a defensive meter for a while so he can't even wake-up.

Watch this set: Curbo and Dragon are so smart whenever Beakaway is in play and they're not getting punished because they watch out for it.

Wow... I know this is early to say... but they just stand around waiting for their def bars to fill, then start fighting, they both breakaway back-to-back if someone gets a combo, then the cycle repeats. Not to mention they complain about the breakaway whenever it happnens

 

[undergroundvgt]

In my opinion the point of breaker is

1. You get to avoid some damage, and
2. The game is reset to neutral so that you don't have to put up with continued pressure from your opponent immediately after using your breaker

In MKX and MK9 this is how the breaker worked. I'm good with that since you usually can't do it more than once a round. Basically you're giving the guy in trouble a chance to live to fight another day in exchange for a good chunk of his meter.

In MK11 though breakers can not just get a guy out of trouble but in fact allow him to completely turn the tables with a full combo punish. This is simply unfair design because it will often reward people for making bad choices.

Imagine this - your opponent randomly ex-teleports with Scorpion. You block it and launch him for your full punish. But he uses breaker in the middle of your juggle and starts punishing you instead. How is that fair?

If you drop your combo then your opponent gets off lightly. That's fair enough. But if you don't do anything wrong but still get punished for it that's a problem with the game's design.

I'm not resistant to change. If they want to revamp the breaker system I'm all for it. But the system currently in place is just not good in my opinion.

thanks for taking the time to not only read my comment but respond. you made some valid points. in my opinion after playing well over 300 games on the beta a lot of things people are complaining about i havent experience. on the third day i just learned how to do a wake up lol. so i feel if i had experience what others are saying is broken or shouldnt be there i would probably voice my concerns as well. also i at first thought the speed was slow in the begining but after hours of play i got use to it. i think that could be said with the new mechanics as well. i just feel that we atleast should give the game some time before nerfing it day one. peace

 

[ForeverKing]

The thing about breakaway is, we dont need to wait for the meta to be shaped to understand how it works. Just alone knowing that it sends you spiraling to the ground with two hits of armor into a knockdown position, that automatically right off the bat tells you that it won't be full combo punishable. Like in Injustice 2 if you read an air tech, you could just walk forward and whiff punish the landing frames. The only way to full combo punish breakaway would be if a character had an unblockable OTG that led to a combo, or if you could armor break it before they reach the ground and still convert into big damage.

I understand the concept of baiting the breakaway so you dont get punished. I dont think that's what most people are complaining about. Most people are complaining that there isn't any type of hard punish that the breakaway user can receive.

I would like for there to be specific read that you (the aggressor) can make specifically on breakaway, that fucks the breakaway user up.

For example: D2 automatically armor breaks a breakaway attempt and does unscaled 14% damage, then you still on top of that get the oki setup.

See what I'm saying? There needs to be a hard counter read you can make against breakaway that REALLY hurts. Purposely dropping your combo reading the breakaway, just to get free oki is not enough of a deterrent for the person getting combo'd to think about whether to use breakaway or not.



TLDR; I want some counter play to the breakaway. I want there to be a specific hard read that you can make that blows up breakaway badly, even if it is a risky read.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The thing about breakaway is, we dont need to wait for the meta to be shaped to understand how it works. Just alone knowing that it sends you spiraling to the ground with two hits of armor into a knockdown position, that automatically right off the bat tells you that it won't be full combo punishable. Like in Injustice 2 if you read an air tech, you could just walk forward and whiff punish the landing frames. The only way to full combo punish breakaway would be if a character had an unblockable OTG that led to a combo, or if you could armor break it before they reach the ground and still convert into big damage.

I understand the concept of baiting the breakaway so you dont get punished. I dont think that's what most people are complaining about. Most people are complaining that there isn't any type of hard punish that the breakaway user can receive.

I would like for there to be specific read that you (the aggressor) can make specifically on breakaway, that fucks the breakaway user up.

For example: D2 automatically armor breaks a breakaway attempt and does unscaled 14% damage, then you still on top of that get the oki setup.

See what I'm saying? There needs to be a hard counter read you can make against breakaway that REALLY hurts. Purposely dropping your combo reading the breakaway, just to get free oki is not enough of a deterrent for the person getting combo'd to think about whether to use breakaway or not.



TLDR; I want some counter play to the breakaway. I want there to be a specific hard read that you can make that blows up breakaway badly, even if it is a risky read.

What do you think about just reducing recovery of the moves that have ages to recover like Scorpion's Spear?
In stead of changing breakaway just adjust the moves enough to still be punishable at neutral distance but not punishable half screen?

Or is it possible to scale the players damage that just recently used breakaway to cap out at 14%? That way the punish can only net so much damage but scaling goes away shortly after punish opportunity dissapears.

I think this could be a great idea that keeps it fair and allows the new Breakaway system to stay and live another day.
What do you think?

 

[imMORTAL KOMBATant]

The thing about breakaway is, we dont need to wait for the meta to be shaped to understand how it works. Just alone knowing that it sends you spiraling to the ground with two hits of armor into a knockdown position, that automatically right off the bat tells you that it won't be full combo punishable. Like in Injustice 2 if you read an air tech, you could just walk forward and whiff punish the landing frames. The only way to full combo punish breakaway would be if a character had an unblockable OTG that led to a combo, or if you could armor break it before they reach the ground and still convert into big damage.

I understand the concept of baiting the breakaway so you dont get punished. I dont think that's what most people are complaining about. Most people are complaining that there isn't any type of hard punish that the breakaway user can receive.

I would like for there to be specific read that you (the aggressor) can make specifically on breakaway, that fucks the breakaway user up.

For example: D2 automatically armor breaks a breakaway attempt and does unscaled 14% damage, then you still on top of that get the oki setup.

See what I'm saying? There needs to be a hard counter read you can make against breakaway that REALLY hurts. Purposely dropping your combo reading the breakaway, just to get free oki is not enough of a deterrent for the person getting combo'd to think about whether to use breakaway or not.



TLDR; I want some counter play to the breakaway. I want there to be a specific hard read that you can make that blows up breakaway badly, even if it is a risky read.

I understand your point and your reputation clearly shows that you understand the NRS games and know what your talking about.

But I think that breakaway shouldn't be compared to air tech because in Injustice we had another defensive option with Clashes so MK11 breakaway is more the successor of the Kombo breaker of MKX than I2 air tech.

I can accept if you say that the defender shouldn't be able to punish the agressor but the defender still loses 2 defensive meters and here we have no distance kreated like we had in MKX. And if you fell into a korner you're in trouble without wake up options. If you could punish breakaway besides Fatal blow, breakaway would be absolutely useless. The defender takes damage from the kombo before he breaks, then loses 2 defensive meters (no wake up option for about 15 seconds and no breakaway for 30+ seconds if he opened up again) and you could still score damage and go for an oki setup? That's using 2 defensive bars for nothing. What's the purpose of the breakaway then?

 

[Inzzane_79]

Hmm, how about breakaway would let the defensive character do a automatic pushback wakeup attack when he hits the ground? (does no damage or only very little to the aggressor)

That way he could not punish the aggressor (the pushback attack interrupts any still going strings) and the aggressor does not get oki because of the pushback. Game just resets to neutral.

I wasn´t able to play the stress test (living in Europe) so this idea is purely out of what I´ve seen on YouTube/twitch and based on what I´ve read here.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Hmm, how about breakaway would let the defensive character do a automatic pushback wakeup attack when he hits the ground? (does no damage or only very little to the aggressor)

That way he could not punish the aggressor (the pushback attack interrupts any still going strings) and the aggressor does not get oki because of the pushback. Game just resets to neutral.

I wasn´t able to play the stress test (living in Europe) so this idea is purely out of what I´ve seen on YouTube/twitch and based on what I´ve read here.

this is a great idea and concept !