Sonic Fox's Official Post Patch Tier List

[Lord Snotty]

Sonya and SUCCESSrion at the top? My dreams come true.

 

[Enexemander]

That's what I tell people all the time. Just throw me. I can't do shit about it unless they're being super obvious with their throw patterns.

No one can.

Let me repeat, no one can react to throws. They are 10 frame moves. I'm not sure how many frames you have to tech, but it's not a lot and you have to let go of block regardless.
Pros are reacting to the situation (anticipation), and using the start up of the throw as an indicator that they are right. That's why "auto shimmy" is a thing. Jabs look like throw attempts.
People can get so frustrated with fighting games because they think they can't react as they should be able to, and get frustrated and quit. People don't realize that most of that is reads, not pure reaction.

Just as a general question, does anyone know the tech window on throws? I tried to google it and didn't find anything. My google fu has failed me.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

No one can.

Let me repeat, no one can react to throws. They are 10 frame moves. I'm not sure how many frames you have to tech, but it's not a lot and you have to let go of block regardless.
Pros are reacting to the situation (anticipation), and using the start up of the throw as an indicator that they are right. That's why "auto shimmy" is a thing. Jabs look like throw attempts.
People can get so frustrated with fighting games because they think they can't react as they should be able to, and get frustrated and quit. People don't realize that most of that is reads, not pure reaction.

Just as a general question, does anyone know the tech window on throws? I tried to google it and didn't find anything. My google fu has failed me.

I've actually asked people I've played against if it's a read or a reaction and most of them say it's on reaction lol But then I see pros getting thrown all the time so that can't be the case.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

So if the best player in the world’s tier list shouldn’t be taken seriously, then are people basically saying don’t take any tier list seriously? I’ve heard so many people claim tier lists only matter at the highest level of play, yet when the player who is literally the highest level of play says this is how he sees it, the community says he’s on crack lol.

 

[Matix218]

No one can.

Let me repeat, no one can react to throws. They are 10 frame moves. I'm not sure how many frames you have to tech, but it's not a lot and you have to let go of block regardless.
Pros are reacting to the situation (anticipation), and using the start up of the throw as an indicator that they are right. That's why "auto shimmy" is a thing. Jabs look like throw attempts.
People can get so frustrated with fighting games because they think they can't react as they should be able to, and get frustrated and quit. People don't realize that most of that is reads, not pure reaction.

Just as a general question, does anyone know the tech window on throws? I tried to google it and didn't find anything. My google fu has failed me.

You still have time to tech after the startup frames are done and the character has initiated the "grapple" of the other character. I suck at teching but I have seen many high level players confirm you can react befire the tech window expires.

 

[xenogorgeous]

So if the best player in the world’s tier list shouldn’t be taken seriously, then are people basically saying don’t take any tier list seriously? I’ve heard so many people claim tier lists only matter at the highest level of play, yet when the player who is literally the highest level of play says this is how he sees it, the community says he’s on crack lol.

yep .... we can criticize that, he is not right 100% of time .... if the best player of the world, come up and say : "drinking your own pee before grand finals in Evo and that will make you play like a badass mofo", is he suddenly .... rigth about it ? I don't think so .... hehe

 

[Enexemander]

If anyone needs confirmation that even pros are guessing, go watch FoxyGranpa tear up top competitors with throws. He brutalities like EVERY game where they both KNOW he's going to do it AND they know which direction (because the brutal is only on one side). He still gets them all the time, lol.

That said, if you anticipate the situation, and you see what you're specifically looking for, you can do it. But that's kind of a read. Say someone likes to D1, Throw. You can then make the read on seeing a D1 hit. But if they D1, D1, throw, you're getting tossed. Even pros. Big D just got hit with that playing Koisy when he was looking for throw.

Moral of the story- don't beat yourself up. Just play. The meat of the game is in reading and practice. Realistically reactions are low on the list. If pros are getting hit by Sub Zero's overhead in Offline play... I mean think about it. It's what, 21 frames? Don't assume pros are good because they have inhuman attributes. They just learned to read better and know what to practice.

/soapbox. lol

 

[One Inch Punch]

This tier list is garbage

 

[M2Dave]

Someone explain this to me before I have a fucking stroke

The game has been played competitively for four months. If you understand the meta, you understand what makes a character good so you do not need Sonic Fox's tier list.

- mid attacks with fast startup frames

- auto-shimmy string with fast startup frames, including the second hit

- throws that have krushing blow properties and/or provide okizeme

- good damage output and practical requirements on krushing blow attacks

- projectiles, or other long-range attacks, that control the screen outside of mid range

- fatal blows with fast startup frames and long range

Liu Kang has all of these aspects so he is a good character. Besides, I highly doubt he was the 17th best character pre-patch.

By the way, Shang Tsung has some of these aspects too, which is why I doubt he is a bottom five character. I think he is at least mid tier.

 

[Professor Oak]

The game has been played competitively for four months. If you understand the meta, you understand what makes a character good so you do not need Sonic Fox's tier list.

- mid attacks with fast startup frames

- auto-shimmy string with fast startup frames, including the second hit

- throws that have krushing blow properties and/or provide okizeme

- good damage output and practical requirements on krushing blow attacks

- projectiles, or other long-range attacks, that control the screen outside of mid range

- fatal blows with fast startup frames and long range

Liu Kang has all of these aspects so he is a good character. Besides, I highly doubt he was the 17th best character pre-patch.

By the way, Shang Tsung has some of these aspects too, which is why I doubt he is a bottom five character. I think he is at least mid tier.

I just always assumed tier lists were based on Match UPS, and I cant understand how a character that essentially can’t use its best tools in certain matchups can be number 1. Very good? Sure. Oppressive vs many characters? Yes. No losing Matchups? You guys are HIGH ON CRACK.

 

[Vslayer]

So if the best player in the world’s tier list shouldn’t be taken seriously, then are people basically saying don’t take any tier list seriously? I’ve heard so many people claim tier lists only matter at the highest level of play, yet when the player who is literally the highest level of play says this is how he sees it, the community says he’s on crack lol.

I wouldn't say he's on crack, but he's definitely smoking the wacky tabacky.

Tier lists mater when not taking skill into consideration, when you're only looking at a character's toolset. So him being an amazing player has little to do with a tier list.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163662115456081922

View attachment 15662

All right, here we go:
Liu - No. He did not go from good to #1 in the entire game. One of the easiest characters to use with low execution? Sure. But #1? Hell no.

Cetrion - #2 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
SC got nerfed when the damage wasn’t even that great and FoN is one of the most gimmicky variations in the GAME. You will NEVER see a top 8, 16, or 32 FoN at a live tourney. EVER.

Jax - Ok now you’re screwing with us... yes he has arguably the best/easiest high damage KB’s in the game but come on... he is outmatched by good zoners and everyone in the S tiers respectively. Most braindead? Maybe, sure. But #3 just because you like using him now Sonic? Too transparent of favoritism from the player. At least he’s not downplaying because Jax is obviously a good character, he just has no business being S+ tier despite the patch going over his head.

Sonya - Makes sense, patch didn’t do much to her.

Skarlet - Kind of a dark horse pick here, in the right hands she’s dangerous for sure. Better than Geras, Jacqui, Kabal, and Cassie? Ummm hell no... lol

Nightwolf - Fantastic consistent damage but probably better suited right below this. His zoning and counter-zoning are really his forte and there’s already a handful of chars that do it much much better.

Geras and Jacqui - Placement makes sense.

Noob - Yeah he’s pretty damn good now, one of the safest characters in the game maybe only behind Kabal in that regard. Great placement.

Kabal - I still don’t see Kabal below top tier, he’s still the safest character in the game. A couple fairly easy KB’s, stupid good zoning, braindead 50/50 pressure in CC. His only weakness is the majority of his damage is good but not great.

Cassie - Ok so this is tricky. I definitely don’t think she’s A tier, but at the highest level (which admittedly Sonic knows all about) she’s surely been knocked down without the safe glow kick amp anymore. Most of us have seen how easy the highest level can exploit FB consistently, like TekkenMaster did to Dragon’s natural barrier amp at EVO. While I don’t necessarily agree with her placement, I can understand that nerf and her F4 changing is his new idea of her. Still a little harsh in the drop I think.

The entire A+ tier - No complaints, it should be watered down like that. All of those characters are neck and neck with each other for matchups IMO. My only change would be Baraka being kicked up since he still has the easiest 50% damage IN THE GAME, no contest. I originally thought D’Vorah higher with Arachnophobia after the patch, but now everyone and their grandma is going to tech a forward throw and eat free back throws to prevent that 37% KB.

Scorpion - Nah... he should at least be A+ even with the high teles. He didn’t drop that much, that’s just dramatic. Love him or hate him he’s better than this spot.

The rest - While the buffs certainly helped make them more viable and fun to play, we can’t deny that both Kahns still have their issues. I don’t care what anyone says, the Kotal kat move might be “safe” on block but it’s still not making that variation anything more than a gimmick. The totems are trash, Ascension with command grab is by far the choice to win with if you’re going to have a decent chance against half the cast. Shao’s recovery for his KB buffs are great, but you’re screaming at the opponent of what’s going to happen in the next few seconds which makes it almost impossible to achieve at a high level. Especially with his F34 string being one of the easiest strings to FB in the game. Kollector might have a case to be a little higher, especially if you watch Destroyer play him. The staggers and better damage give him some more leverage than who’s around him at the bottom.


So yeah, I think we should take Sonic’s word with a grain of salt like a lot of you are saying. I’m no EVO grand finals winner, but I smell bullshit and the burning pot that he stirred.

 

[deathstroke187]

Daigo is older than you and his reaction time (on a binary choice) is 14 frames. Don't let old age be your OS

daigo is not that much older than me his 38 and his also someone special and i really dont think daigo react he guess.
i dont know a single person even 24yrs old friends that can react to 14 f i sure can react to the throw window to tech way easier in this game than inj

 

[xenogorgeous]

I wouldn't say he's on crack, but he's definitely smoking the wacky tabacky.

Tier lists mater when not taking skill into consideration, when you're only looking at a character's toolset. So him being an amazing player has little to do with a tier list.

yep, agreed, word .... there is a difference about "hey, I'm SonicFox , the best MK11 player in the world, and this is my tier list of what character I personally enjoy and like to play more ... This boredom is killing me already, you know? destroying people in this game .... so , isn't fun teaching you a thing ou two about matchups ?"

versus against

"hey, SonicFox here, dudes ! here it's my unbiased tier list , regardless my skill level, from MK11, pointing out based on pure technical points, and match up results all around the game life cycle so far, and with basement from what make sense on this game, and with enough real data info collected in work partnership with the FGC and top players" .... so

hehe

 

[trufenix]

I wish that stupid tool had never been made )=

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

I wouldn't say he's on crack, but he's definitely smoking the wacky tabacky.

Tier lists mater when not taking skill into consideration, when you're only looking at a character's toolset. So him being an amazing player has little to do with a tier list.

Being an amazing player lends credence to his opinion. If he is able to understand, utilize, and defend against and with probably every character in the game better than 99.99% of people on the planet, I don’t see why anyone else’s tier list should ever be taken seriously either then. It’s opinion based unless someone can actually prove him wrong. Not just say he is wacky because you personally don’t agree.

 

[Vslayer]

Being an amazing player lends credence to his opinion. If he is able to understand, utilize, and defend against and with probably every character in the game better than 99.99% of people on the planet, I don’t see why anyone else’s tier list should ever be taken seriously either then. It’s opinion based unless someone can actually prove him wrong. Not just say he is wacky because you personally don’t agree.

No, the reality is that's his opinion and it's not very objective. Realizing a character's true potential takes weeks and as he's going through all of them, training and playing long sets for every MU, he's figuring stuff out. So his list is based on who he's figuring out right now, but in a few weeks, if he would do another one, it would be completely different.

 

[DTruth]

So did anyone watch his stream or are we just looking at the list and shitting on it? Once you hear and see his explainations the list isnt bad.

Now if you want a list based on my skill level then that tier list is different.

 

[Enexemander]

daigo is not that much older than me his 38 and his also someone special and i really dont think daigo react he guess.
i dont know a single person even 24yrs old friends that can react to 14 f i sure can react to the throw window to tech way easier in this game than inj

Oh I was just kidding!
I'm around your age myself and found out where my reactions time are kind of by accident. I was labbing Sub Zero's Overhead and Low. The overhead is 21 frames. Offline, if I just have the AI do Overhead or Low, I can react to it 100%. Buuuut if I put in the Online Delay Option, I get awfully inconsistent with it. MK11 has about 4 or 4.5 frames of input delay in online mode, so my personal reaction time gets iffy around 17 frames or below.

Not bad for an oldie, eh? 80's kids rise up

 

[deathstroke187]

Oh I was just kidding!
I'm around your age myself and found out where my reactions time are kind of by accident. I was labbing Sub Zero's Overhead and Low. The overhead is 21 frames. Offline, if I just have the AI do Overhead or Low, I can react to it 100%. Buuuut if I put in the Online Delay Option, I get awfully inconsistent with it. MK11 has about 4 or 4.5 frames of input delay in online mode, so my personal reaction time gets iffy around 17 frames or below.

Not bad for an oldie, eh? 80's kids rise up

subzero overhead is 19 not 21 if it was 21 i would be able to react. if i were to nerf sub i would make it 21 or 22 even. not like nightwolf 24f piss break window.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

subzero overhead is 19 not 21 if it was 21 i would be able to react. if i were to nerf sub i would make it 21 or 22 even. not like nightwolf 24f piss break window.

Pissbreak window lol

 

[Enexemander]

subzero overhead is 19 not 21 if it was 21 i would be able to react. if i were to nerf sub i would make it 21 or 22 even. not like nightwolf 24f piss break window.

Okay... so that means I'm actually at around 15 frames...
Fuck this art career; it's time to go pro!
/s

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

Sonic Posts Tier List
Community "That list is whack."
Sonic Wins Evo again.

You can be the best player in the world, and people still won't listen to you.

 

[Down 2]

I feel this is one of the worst tier lists I've seen I don't know what Sonic was on when he made this. I main Jax and there's no way he S-tier.. Top 10, yes, but he objectively has a lot more losing match-ups than the other top tiers, and especially against fellow top tiers. The whole list is whack and does not even closely represent my experience playing people of all different skill levels and that's weird considering it's coming from our best player. Geras, Liu, Cassie, Cetrion, and Kabal is the top 5 from what I can tell but the patch is still new and we haven't had a major tournament to gather more solid information so we will see.

 

[NooBooN]

Disagree with noob being so high yes he can be safe .. for meter so he can be safe twice not like others who do this shit for free with less negative frames

I 2nd that statement. Also Noob will never be that high until his crappy projectiles fixed and his B3 KB is addressed.