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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Tap tap and flow flow are very different. I wouldn't suggest using a character that has tap and flow, or a tap tap character if you already flow bro.

Don't ya know?
Its tap-tap (Scorp Spear, SZ Slide, Raiden Superman) or flow (Scorp Teleport, SZ Ice Ball, Raiden Electric Grab)...

What you're more comfortable with only matters on start-up during exchanges. Now, this is coming from someone relatively new to being any good at NRS games.

I was 99-1 in online ranked games in MK9, but that was early on. Later in the year, I got my head handed to me again and again and again by Big J Gleez. I couldn't beat him if he messed around. So, I understand the difference between winning and actually being good.

In MKX, I put in work. There's still guys that I can't beat (like Forever Elite), but there are also guys here who can't beat me - so I'm not the best - but I have come a long way.

Being still kind of new, I grasp the early obstacles - and this is one of them. If you haven't noticed, MKX has added a shit-ton of players to the community - and many of them are part of this community. These new players tend to stick with characters with exchange moves that have motions they are comfortable with. Veterans barely even remember this aspect as obstacles, so I understand the confusion and the jokes - but hopefully this post clears things up.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I'm still not sure what you're talking about lol.
When the going gets tough, the newer player's instincts will push him to do whatever is comfortable - be it circle or tap-tap motion.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
This is all about input motions?!? I think every character in the game has multiple of both. It's hardly a barrier. What a ridiculous reason to tell someone not to play a character lol
 

Tweedy

Noob
Okay.

Tbh I never had an issue with any two input moves. I did kind of struggle with command grabs and moves like Jax's downward superman.

I never played a fighting game until Killer Instinct and now this, so i'm not an OG elitist master. Maybe the ps4 pad has you guys fucked up. I couldn't flow flow on that thing either.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
How many matchups does Kenshi win?
You don't need to win a single match up, 5-5 is a win if you outplay your opponent. Ill gladly trade off some really unfair positive match ups to get rid of some really unfair negative MUs. But that's just me.
 
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Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
You don't need to win a single match up, 5-5 is a win if you outplay your opponent. Ill gladly trade off some really unfair positive match ups to get rid of some really unfair negative MUs. But that's just me.
I guess if thats your preference. But I'd wager Kenshi has the the same amount of losing matchups as Sub. D'Vorah vs Sub = Shinnok vs Kenshi in all honesty.
 

Snoop88

Noob
My friend plays a very good D'vorah but he's on PS4 and EU(don't know where you from Dankster). Played this match-up a hundreds of times and the more I played it the more I think it's better to chose some other char against her. However below is some footage from tournament matches where I played against him. Maybe that can help at least a little bit.

FGC 2015 September

Buttonczech 2016 May
1st set - 10:00
2nd set - 1:08:30
 

Tweedy

Noob
I guess if thats your preference. But I'd wager Kenshi has the the same amount of losing matchups as Sub. D'Vorah vs Sub = Shinnok vs Kenshi in all honesty.
I don't know about that.

Shinnok dominates the neutral vs everyone. He's fundamentally OP as fuck, but his damage is bad without bar and okay with bar. Kenshi gets hella damage, so that helps. I don't see how it's that bad. Gotta weigh risk/reward. If risk/reward is not weighed, Boneshaper Shinnok is easily the best character in the game, no argument. In reality there are characters that get more than twice his damage without meter. Characters like Mileena and Ermac approach 3x his damage. He's gotta be right 5-6 times to win, Kenshi doesn't have to be right more than 3 times, ever.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Ok thats just one example. I'm just really thinking that Kenshi has absolutely no advantage really anywhere. He is gonna have to get away with random teles in Possessed or random ex launchers, getting no damage for it in Possessed. Possessed actually has pretty comparable meterless damage to Boneshaper. As for Kenjustsu, he still gets dominated anywhere on screen. He has even less of a chance of zoning Shinnok, gets crushed in footsies, if Shinnok has a bar, all of his specials become useless, it seems pretty 7-3. I'm not really seeing any point where Kenshi gets a leg up. Sub has one saving grace vs D'Vorah which is if he guesses right while she is cornered. That's about as far as it goes really. As far as risk/reward goes, I'm not seeing any risks Shinnok needs to take against Kenshi. I get what you mean about Shinnok needing to be right more times than Kenshi to win, but not for his one bar damage. He gets about 30 off of a scoop and everything ends in a restand. The way these characters were constructed allows Shinnok to build shit tons of meter as well, with Kenshi going for yolo tele grabs only to eat an ex scoop or trade with his plus a billion projectile. All I'm saying is Kenshi has his fair share of death matches, and loses to every top tier character. Shinnok may not have been the best example. Same could be said for Mileena I suppose. @God Confirm I don't know why you're expecting it to be 5-5 city. Maybe versus the mid tier characters but not the more popular tournament characters. Ironically the character you're describing would be more like Boneshaper Shinnok. Either way I'm not sure how this thread turned into this. I'm just saying to that one guy who thinks Sub is garbage that he is actually mid tier, and an actual low tier or lower mid tier character like Kenshi who has probably the same if not more losing matchups, and way less winning ones.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Kenshi vs Mileena is probably as bad as Sub vs D'vorah, yeah.

Tbh though i'm starting to think that Mileena has a ton of 7-3s. Her bad match ups are 5-5 lawl.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Ok thats just one example. I'm just really thinking that Kenshi has absolutely no advantage really anywhere. He is gonna have to get away with random teles in Possessed or random ex launchers, getting no damage for it in Possessed. Possessed actually has pretty comparable meterless damage to Boneshaper. As for Kenjustsu, he still gets dominated anywhere on screen. He has even less of a chance of zoning Shinnok, gets crushed in footsies, if Shinnok has a bar, all of his specials become useless, it seems pretty 7-3. I'm not really seeing any point where Kenshi gets a leg up. Sub has one saving grace vs D'Vorah which is if he guesses right while she is cornered. That's about as far as it goes really. As far as risk/reward goes, I'm not seeing any risks Shinnok needs to take against Kenshi. I get what you mean about Shinnok needing to be right more times than Kenshi to win, but not for his one bar damage. He gets about 30 off of a scoop and everything ends in a restand. The way these characters were constructed allows Shinnok to build shit tons of meter as well, with Kenshi going for yolo tele grabs only to eat an ex scoop or trade with his plus a billion projectile. All I'm saying is Kenshi has his fair share of death matches, and loses to every top tier character. Shinnok may not have been the best example. Same could be said for Mileena I suppose. @God Confirm I don't know why you're expecting it to be 5-5 city. Maybe versus the mid tier characters but not the more popular tournament characters. Ironically the character you're describing would be more like Boneshaper Shinnok. Either way I'm not sure how this thread turned into this. I'm just saying to that one guy who thinks Sub is garbage that he is actually mid tier, and an actual low tier or lower mid tier character like Kenshi who has probably the same if not more losing matchups, and way less winning ones.
I don't think it's 5/5 city and didn't say it was and I'm also not the only person in here saying they'd rather take Kenshi to a tourney, so I don't get that tag.

He's obviously going to have a hard time vs some of the top tiers, but so is Sub. SZ is even more polarised though. Kenshi has no match up as bad as Dvo vs Sub, and Sub arguably has multiple of them. Kenshi might be underpowered but at least he's well rounded, and isn't horribly dependant on one special which doesn't even work in every MU. GM is basically variationless vs Dvo, I mean Kenshi ain't an amazing character but I'll take Kenjutsu over variationless Sub any day.

And yeah Sub is pretty garbage, in my opinion. Bottom 10 minimum but likely even lower. And even if he wasn't, he's a walking coin flip on the character select screen except it's a two headed coin and you call tails every time, because even if your opponent is playing Reptile or non WG kotal or whoever else is even considered a winning MU for sz, it doesn't matter, because everyone of these mains has a secondary who counters the shit out of sub.

I feel bad for your character but aye you guys seem fine with it, so I never really mention it. There is just no reason for anything in this game other than telepathic moves not to collide with a brick of ice. Lazy design the way everyone just gets to go through it for free
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Kenshi vs Mileena is probably as bad as Sub vs D'vorah, yeah.

Tbh though i'm starting to think that Mileena has a ton of 7-3s. Her bad match ups are 5-5 lawl.
Hell nah you can push her out her optimal range, your armor beats hers and is fucking hard for her to punish, and you don't fear the Sais. You are problys talking about Balanced and you would be correct, but Kenjutsu probably has a better match up against her than plenty of much better characters do
 
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Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I don't think it's 5/5 city and didn't say it was and I'm also not the only person in here saying they'd rather take Kenshi to a tourney, so I don't get that tag.

He's obviously going to have a hard time vs some of the top tiers, but so is Sub. SZ is even more polarised though. Kenshi has no match up as bad as Dvo vs Sub, and Sub arguably has multiple of them. Kenshi might be underpowered but at least he's well rounded, and isn't horribly dependant on one special which doesn't even work in every MU. GM is basically variationless vs Dvo, I mean Kenshi ain't an amazing character but I'll take Kenjutsu over variationless Sub any day.

And yeah Sub is pretty garbage, in my opinion. Bottom 10 minimum but likely even lower. And even if he wasn't, he's a walking coin flip on the character select screen except it's a two headed coin and you call tails every time, because even if your opponent is playing Reptile or non WG kotal or whoever else is even considered a winning MU for sz, it doesn't matter, because everyone of these mains has a secondary who counters the shit out of sub.

I feel bad for your character but aye you guys seem fine with it, so I never really mention it. There is just no reason for anything in this game other than telepathic moves not to collide with a brick of ice. Lazy design the way everyone just gets to go through it for free
The tag was because I was replying to you, wasn't trying to blow you up. I have Sub-Zero with 11 winning, 11 losing, and 11 even. I guarantee that Kenshi doesn't stack up that well. That's why I don't see the well rounded thing because he probably has the same number of losing matchups. Who cares if they aren't as bad as D'Vorah vs Sub, some are pretty close though, because the odds are still stacked against you at the highest level. Outplaying your opponent doesn't come into account in a tier discussion because it is on the basis that they are EQUALLY skilled players at the highest possible level in this matchup. If you're better than your opponent then it isn't really a matchup that can be taken into a tier discussion. We don't complain because we don't want a broke character. Bottom ten may be pushing it imo, and even if it was true, everyone except maybe the bottom 3 are usable. I'd say he isn't in the bottom ten because he is better than Kenshi, Triborg, Kung Lao, Jason, Tanya, Jacqui, Kitana, Bo Rai Cho, Raiden, Predator(yes), and Goro. Probably even more but that's just off the top of my head. I know your opinions on Kung Lao and that you like to up play him so let's not go there. But yeah I totally respect your opinion, but having spent a year with Sub-Zero, I think he is middle of the mid tier.
 

Tweedy

Noob
War God loses to Grandmaster as well. It's actually pretty bad. Imo War God is worse off than Reptile. At least Reptile can do something after he's blown his resources. If you're not right when you go to EX overhead through the klone, pack your bags.

But I mean, Sub has some other good match ups besides Kotal, Jax, Reptile, and some of the other common suspects. He actually does pretty well vs Shinnok, CT Kano, Johnny Cage, who are all considered top tier by a lot of people. He may get dumpstered by some top tiers, but he does well vs others. He's just a weird character. Most characters have a bunch of 5-5s, some 4-6s and 6-4s. Sub gets destroyed or destroys in a lot of cases.

I just switch to Alien, throw random snags and win.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Ok I see you on the tag, my bad shoulda known you better you are generally pretty sweet.

I think he's worse than almost every character you just mentioned and but that's just my opinion. No I don't think Kenosha has significantly more losing match ups than SZ, and the ones that he does lose are still very winnable at least unlike Subs which are pack up and go home. Tier list I dunno and I don't care to try grade every MU for two low tier characters and analyse who is shittier, all I know is that I like my chances of coming top 3 in a tourney maining Kenshi much better than I like them with SZ. SZ isn't useless he has some great MUs against some great characters, but he's more like pocket counter tech, fuck maining that character, more power to you if you do so though. Anyways, no point in back n forthing this any further, im surprised I haven't been crucified already by the combined weight of TYM, or at least the Johnny cage community. Lol.

Also I don't upplay Lao. I just still feel the character has absolutely everything he needs to compete, he just isn't top tier anymore. Still highly legit and putting him down with Kenshi and Jason is insane, and I've played a lot of Lao, both as and against.