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Discussion ... so who are the Top 5 after all the patching?

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
D'vorah is a special case because she can be used both execution heavy for damage or 3% less and get the same result. I picked her up out of boredom and I was able to do her jailing cancels on block and her 1 frame combos on hit. She isn't that hard imo. Also Cage is extremely easy. 11 staggers, throws, 113, F42, into restand, into jailing pressure, build a full bar, and if your opponent tries to zone you out, full screen shadow kick that is safe (yes I know it can be neutral ducked but it recovers way to fast), and repeat. lmao.
The things that make A-List Cage special are not what you mentioned. Yes you can do those things, but A-List Cage is way harder to use than Demo Sonya lol. She's up there dude.
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
You're missing the point, she needs grenades. If she runs out and gets touched once, its pretty much over. Have you not seen ESL season 2 grand finals? Perfect example.
Didn't she get a buff though that grenades will be restocked even if you get hit out of the animation. Combos can be easily ended into reload. Played at the best level greade management will be good and she will always have access to grenades.
Also saying how she was in ESL grand finals doesn't help your point haha :p
 
I know many people will think this is a stupid way to argue but I just don't understand why Cage does not dominate tournaments.If he is top 5 like many ppl said, he should have appeared in many top 8 (or at least Final round top 8). Some high level players switched to Mileena or Alien because they are really good but why no one chooses Cage (really want to see him in action)
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Didn't she get a buff though that grenades will be restocked even if you get hit out of the animation. Combos can be easily ended into reload. Played at the best level greade management will be good and she will always have access to grenades.
Also saying how she was in ESL grand finals doesn't help your point haha :p
It doesn't? You know when she had unscaled 60% combos? You've got to be kidding..
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
You're missing the point, she needs grenades. If she runs out and gets touched once, its pretty much over. Have you not seen ESL season 2 grand finals? Perfect example.
It's not "pretty much over" if you know what you're doing. Reloading grenades are a lot easier now. Starts up 5 frames faster and you can do some setups with EX grenade call. Not 100% guaranteed, but it's still something.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I know many people will think this is a stupid way to argue but I just don't understand why Cage does not dominate tournaments.If he is top 5 like many ppl said, he should have appeared in many top 8 (or at least Final round top 8). Some high level players switched to Mileena or Alien because they are really good but why no one chooses Cage (really want to see him in action)
Look who Killer Xinok had to play throughout KIT as a prime example to how good this character can be when used by someone as good as Killer Xinok.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
The things that make A-List Cage special are not what you mentioned. Yes you can do those things, but A-List Cage is way harder to use than Demo Sonya lol. She's up there dude.
I don't remember saying Johnny was a special case, I said DV. Also, keep in mind top 10 means characters that viable. When did I say she was not viable?
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
It doesn't? You know when she had unscaled 60% combos? You've got to be kidding..
Trying to make a point that a character isn't as good as others then saying that they were in grand finals of a large tournament doesn't help your point no.

'You know when she had unscaled 60% combos? You've got to be kidding..'
I don't understand what point your trying to counter with that.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Trying to make a point that a character isn't as good as others then saying that they were in grand finals of a large tournament doesn't help your point no.

'You know when she had unscaled 60% combos? You've got to be kidding..'
I don't understand what point your trying to counter with that.
I'm saying her prepatch version was way more scary. Time will tell if I'm wrong but I consider her old damage more threatening.
 
Look who Killer Xinok had to play throughout KIT as a prime example to how good this character can be when used by someone as good as Killer Xinok.
Yea his Cage is crazy, and I know Cage is really good but I just wonder why high level players rarely use him, we still see a lot of Lao and Jin (they re so boring), they appeared in almost every tournament top 8
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Yea his Cage is crazy, and I know Cage is really good but I just wonder why high level players rarely use him, we still see a lot of Lao and Jin (they re so boring), they appeared in almost every tournament top 8
Execution id imagine. Most of the amazing cages are that amazing since they played him since the beginning.
 
Every downplayer saying their top tier character isn't top 5...

That's like saying all those upplayers who feel the need to upplay their mid-low tier characters, aren't genuinely going to be true. Because really all it takes is the re-establishing of frames (look at MIleena who is being contested for top 5, another example of upplaying.) All of the characters in this game could potentially become the very best but they lack the frames and other courtesy buffs to make them like that so I don't agree with this post.
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
I'm saying her prepatch version was way more scary. Time will tell if I'm wrong but I consider her old damage more threatening.
Her old amage was more threatening, but it's not just the damage that makes her so good. It's the control she has over the screen. Along with nerfs with other top 10 characters like lui, tremor, quan, kung it only bumped her up the tier list imo.
 
Her old amage was more threatening, but it's not just the damage that makes her so good. It's the control she has over the screen. Along with nerfs with other top 10 characters like lui, tremor, quan, kung it only bumped her up the tier list imo.
What character you talking about?
 
Yea his Cage is crazy, and I know Cage is really good but I just wonder why high level players rarely use him, we still see a lot of Lao and Jin (they re so boring), they appeared in almost every tournament top 8
Because Kung Jin and Lao are still relatively great characters, with great tools. Execution really has nothing to do with the fact that Cage can go toe to toe with the top tiers, but his pressure has a lot of gaps in it that he can easily be countered.
 

14K

Noob
She got hella buffs and a bunch of characters got nerfed. Some of her most important buffs:

Less recovery on sais makes her one of the best zoners in the game
6f D1(although the range is still ass lol)
B1 was made -2 instead of -5

She was probably high mid before the March 1st patch but it pretty much shot her to the top.
Was not aware of this, maybe because even tho i like her alot i n ever really played or paid much attention to her frame data...
 

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
That's like saying all those upplayers who feel the need to upplay their mid-low tier characters, aren't genuinely going to be true. Because really all it takes is the re-establishing of frames (look at MIleena who is being contested for top 5, another example of upplaying.) All of the characters in this game could potentially become the very best but they lack the frames and other courtesy buffs to make them like that so I don't agree with this post.
 

Yoaks

A spaceman
Piercing, B12 staggers, easy hit confirm into 30%+ into plus on hit restand, zone opponent with insane fast recovery on projectiles, they get in, the whole process starts over.
Her b12 is really tough to hit confirm. But f23 and f12b4 are alot easier.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Instead of listing random characters, let me attempt to rationalize what I perceive to be the current top tier meta of the game

People underestimate the dramatic changes to chip damage reduction and meter building on normal attacks, which is why I currently believe the top tier meta has shifted from safe pressure (i.e., pre-patch A-List Johnny Cage, Crystalline Tremor, Kobu Jutsu Tanya, Tempest Kung Lao, etc.) to safe 50/50 mix ups (i.e., contemporary Cutthroat Kano, Demolition Sonya, Ronin Takeda, Swarm Queen D'Vorah, etc.). I am in no way, shape, or form suggesting that the "safe pressure" characters are bad, but their normal attacks almost do twice as less chip damage as before while simultaneously building less meter. In contrast, a character like Cutthroat Kano has safe 50/50 mix up that can result in advantage with one bar or 50% combos with two bars anywhere on the screen. D'Vorah shares similar characteristics but requires more execution. I am not certain that a "pressure character" is able to generate adequate offense to compete with the safe 50/50 mix ups and the reward they provide.

As far as Mileena is concerned, she has strong footsies and zoning but unsafe mix ups, which is a description of something that has never been top 5 in any version of this game. You still need absurd offense to be a really strong character.