Question - Shinnok Should Shinnok's S3 be a low?

[ando1184]

I think initially it should have been low to begin with. But seeing as how he has f4, it would be a touch too much "now." However, going by the OP's standpoint, yes it should have been acting as a low attack. He literally is stepping on the ground, that's as low as it gets! It really shouldn't require to be parried low though, that crap makes me smh. To this day we are still seeing things in these games that tells us NRS still hasn't gotten it together.

 

[MsMiharo]

Most will vote just so there isn't another mixup to deal with in the game. Why would anyone want another character, who is extremely viable already, to get a brand new mixup? Except Shinnok mains of course which is understandable to an extent.

He's already got a really great low normal as it is. Best in the game as far as I'm concerned. Combine it with his vortex in imposter for instance and it's just unnecessary.

If by some goat killing blood sacrificing miracle it did happen the frame data couldn't be the same. It couldn't and shouldn't stay safe under such nonsense.

it's -7 so not safe per se

 

[MsMiharo]

I think initially it should have been low to begin with. But seeing as how he has f4, it would be a touch too much "now." However, going by the OP's standpoint, yes it should have been acting as a low attack. He literally is stepping on the ground, that's as low as it gets! It really shouldn't require to be parried low though, that crap makes me smh. To this day we are still seeing things in these games that tells us NRS still hasn't gotten it together.

Yeah I wasn't ASKING it to be changed but it seems obvious that it was a low, pre-release (back when Shinnok had no overhead and the worst frame data of all characters and Bone Shaper was his worst variation)

 

[SaSSolino]

it's -7 so not safe per se

how's -7 not safe? just frame d1 punishes don't count as unsafe to me mate. add the fact that 312 is special cancellable without a gap and good luck punishing that.

 

[Deyrax]

I still don't understand why NRS keeps making moves with properties not matching animations. As if Nightwolf's f3 or Rain's b1 (or whatever the command was) wasn't enough.

 

[MsMiharo]

how's -7 not safe? just frames d1 punishes don't count as unsafe to me mate. add the fact that 312 is special cancellable without a gap and good luck punishing that.

7 frame specials, 6 frame jabs.

 

[SaSSolino]

7 frame specials, 6 frame jabs.

as I said, just frame d1 punishes don't count as unsafe to me. the only real punish you can get is by buffering those really quick reversals that just a few chars have, but considering that you can even special cancel the string I count this one as "safe enough to be called safe".

 

[MsMiharo]

as I said, just frame d1 punishes don't count as unsafe to me. the only real punish you can get is by buffering those really quick reversals that just a few chars have, but considering that you can even special cancel the string I count this one as "safe enough to be called safe".

you can definetly buffer for instance ex spin before amulet/hs and still have time to block. It can be made safe with bar but that's any string. It's good but not 100% safe. Also at least shaolin kung jin has a 6 frame jab that reaches for a full combo.

 

[DDutchguy]

as I said, just frame d1 punishes don't count as unsafe to me. the only real punish you can get is by buffering those really quick reversals that just a few chars have, but considering that you can even special cancel the string I count this one as "safe enough to be called safe".

He's talking about 6-frame normals that punish the -7 move, such as Raiden's F1. I don't really count -7 as unsafe either because just frame punishing is insanely difficult.

 

[Osagri]

He's talking about 6-frame normals that punish the -7 move, such as Raiden's F1. I don't really count -7 as unsafe either because just frame punishing is insanely difficult.

It's not that hard

 

[IrishMantis]

If they gave Shinnok a low that buff would be bigger than you think as it would then give Shinnok a true vortex as his OH is 18 and his S3 is 15

But yes it does look like it

 

[dribirut]

This thread is so dumb and pointless.... Like sure you can have it i guess. It wont change a thing

 

[MsMiharo]

If they gave Shinnok a low that buff would be bigger than you think as it would then give Shinnok a true vortex as his OH is 18 and his S3 is 15

But yes it does look like it

How would it be bigger than I think, I mentioned exactly that in the op lol.

 

[Deyrax]

It's not that hard

It may not be, but you shouldn't only count frames in this. There are plenty of move properties besides recovery/startup that can make a move safer, like different blockstuns, pushbacks and deceiving animations. Also, just frame punishes are usually reads. Easy just frame punishes on reaction in the heat of the match ? I don't think so.

 

[Prinz]

I'm dissapointed. Was expecting more a "Should Kano's standing 2 be an overhead?" thread from you. It should, to be honest.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

If they gave Shinnok a low that buff would be bigger than you think as it would then give Shinnok a true vortex as his OH is 18 and his S3 is 15

But yes it does look like it

He already has a true vortex, he can just delay his low. But the thing is he would be able to hit confirm his low.

 

[DDutchguy]

It's not that hard

Having a 0.0167 second window to do anything is hard.

 

[SaSSolino]

you can definetly buffer for instance ex spin before amulet/hs and still have time to block. It can be made safe with bar but that's any string. It's good but not 100% safe. Also at least shaolin kung jin has a 6 frame jab that reaches for a full combo.

I see your point, but I still don't count it as unsafe. it's a really hard punish and shinnok has ways to make hard to punish in different ways.

 

[Osagri]

It may not be, but you shouldn't only count frames in this. There are plenty of move properties besides recovery/startup that can make a move safer, like different blockstuns, pushbacks and deceiving animations. Also, just frame punishes are usually reads. Easy just frame punishes on reaction in the heat of the match ? I don't think so.

Like they don't do it in Tekken for example. I find it harder to just frame punish with justframe launcher. And yes, in a heat of a match

 

[MsMiharo]

I see your point, but I still don't count it as unsafe. it's a really hard punish and shinnok has ways to make hard to punish in different ways.

That's why I wrote safe (ish). You can't argue it's safe when it's in fact not.

 

[DDutchguy]

To put it to rest, -7 is technically not 100% safe, but in practice it might as well be.

Now back on topic, animations looking like a low or an overhead are a weird thing in fighting games. Mileena's Ball and Teleport should also be low and overhead respectively if we're looking at their animations. Scorpion's B1 too, should be an overhead if you look at the animation.

 

[SaSSolino]

That's why I wrote safe (ish). You can't argue it's safe when it's in fact not.

I replied to this:

it's -7 so not safe per se

just like Dutchy says, -7 is completely safe in practicality, Shinnok would be super bad otherwise, his d1 is -9 on block.

 

[STRYKIE]

I replied to this:


just like Dutchy says, -7 is completely safe in practicality, Shinnok would be super bad otherwise, his d1 is -9 on block.

They changed Shinnok's D1 to -7 on block just for the record.

 

[MsMiharo]

To put it to rest, -7 is technically not 100% safe, but in practice it might as well be.

Now back on topic, animations looking like a low or an overhead are a weird thing in fighting games. Mileena's Ball and Teleport should also be low and overhead respectively if we're looking at their animations. Scorpion's B1 too, should be an overhead if you look at the animation.

What I'm bringing up is not only the animation but how it acts vs parries

 

[SaSSolino]

They changed Shinnok's D1 to -7 on block just for the record.

Thanks, I didn't know as I don't play a lot since the PC drama.