General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[regulas]

Call it blasphemy but if tournament players are moving on from the character I say it's for a pretty good reason. I mean every character has a strength (good damage, 50/50s, good zoning etc...), and I hate to say it, but having good pokes in a game where every character does way more damage on you, have extreme gimmicks across all variations and have little to no true safe strings, and no mixup along with no damage makes you absolutely unviable in a tournament fighter. You can play him and have fun, but if someone learns the matchup? Shinnok is just free. A 5 frame down 1 does not make up for all of his cons. If there was ever a character that needed early buffs, Shinnok is it. Nothing about him works, or works well.

Even if Impostor has a vortex, it's prob the worst one in the game by far, so much so you could do better with a character without one. Shame, because this is the third time Shinnok has been in a MK game and he gets shafted AGAIN.

I'm finding with Necro my base BnB gets around 30% and I can hitconfirm it so it's not that bad. It's no Kung Jin or Kotal Kahn but overall a lot of characters actually have pretty piss poor combo damage. (

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I'm finding with Necro my base BnB gets around 30% and I can hitconfirm it so it's not that bad. It's no Kung Jin or Kotal Kahn but overall a lot of characters actually have pretty piss poor combo damage. (

I disagree with the piss poor damage part, and the issue with Necro Shinnok isn't just the damage. You can only get by with flick for so long. Most opponents are wise enough to respect it, the one guaranteed safe string for it whiffs on opponents often, his unblockable special absolutely sucks even on a hard knockdown, amulet comes out slow...

Guys, the only thing he has is godlike pokes. If this was Street Fighter? That would be great. But other characters have no mixup and have way more damage (I.e: Kitana)

Or control space better than even Shinnok despite having rough normals (I.E: Kenshi)

Plus 30% for one bar is just... A waste. I mean if Sub-Zero can get 33% meterless and corner carry...

This character just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Ojpaxton]

Spacing pokes and b3

 

[regulas]

I disagree with the piss poor damage part, and the issue with Necro Shinnok isn't just the damage. You can only get by with flick for so long. Most opponents are wise enough to respect it, the one guaranteed safe string for it whiffs on opponents often, his unblockable special absolutely sucks even on a hard knockdown, amulet comes out slow...

Guys, the only thing he has is godlike pokes. If this was Street Fighter? That would be great. But other characters have no mixup and have way more damage (I.e: Kitana)

Or control space better than even Shinnok despite having rough normals (I.E: Kenshi)

Plus 30% for one bar is just... A waste. I mean if Sub-Zero can get 33% meterless and corner carry...

This character just doesn't make any sense.

From what I've seen only the hammer variation can best 30% easily, the others struggle to reach 30% with 1 meter.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

From what I've seen only the hammer variation can best 30% easily, the others struggle to reach 30% with 1 meter.

Believe me when I tell you that he can get about 31% meterless that's easy and if optimal, 40% 1 bar in grandmaster (and that's midscreen). Cryomancer can do more I think.

Shinnok just got straight up shafted. Every character does more damage than him and then some.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Spacing pokes and b3

Nowhere near enough when every character has dirt in this game or safe stuff. B3 is extremely gimmicky. Most people block low on Shinnok BC there's no overheads to fear. His spacing is not good at all, even with his pokes. Plus 90% of his spacing tools are punishable. He simply does not get enough.

I don't even think Shinnok wins any matchups, goes even with some characters at best. He definitely loses against strong pressure characters.

 

[Fenixy]

Spacing pokes and b3

b3 is overrated, it gives him nothing in return. There is no reason to block standing anyway.

I'm finding with Necro my base BnB gets around 30% and I can hitconfirm it so it's not that bad. It's no Kung Jin or Kotal Kahn but overall a lot of characters actually have pretty piss poor combo damage. (

30% 1 bar is laughable.Atleast in imposter his throw is 16%, which is basically is around 30% no meter with throw or chance to gamble for 45% combo.
I find my self doing throws alot, since there is nothing else to open them with, and the only thing after d1 to do is a throw.But there is nothing after, f3 and b3 do not reach and jump in is non-existent.

 

[regulas]

b3 is overrated, it gives him nothing in return. There is no reason to block standing anyway.


30% 1 bar is laughable.Atleast in imposter his throw is 16%, which is basically is around 30% no meter with throw or chance to gamble for 45% combo.
I find my self doing throws alot, since there is nothing else to open them with, and the only thing after d1 to do is a throw.But there is nothing after, f3 and b3 do not reach and jump in is non-existent.

The 30% is me sacrificing damage for ease and position, while mid-screen. Even shin can go much higher in the corner. Other characters get maybe 3-5% more dmg for 1 meter except for a few of the best combo characters.

The point of B3 is to B3~Flick, which gives you better spacing for follow up.

 

[Helter Skelter]

NEWLY PROPOSED SHINNOK CHANGES:

*Some of my suggested changes may have been too radical, so I tried to find a middle ground with what I think are good buffs/additions to this character.

ALL VARIATIONS:
-1,1,2,3 string (Dark Magic) to become a true blockstring.

-2,2 string (Nexus) to hit Overhead, Mid.

-B,F+3+BLK (Krushing Shoulder) to have it's hitbox adjusted to consistently hit. The fireball after the move hitting to become a launcher.

-D,B+2 (Hell Sparks) to be safe if the opponent is made to block all three sparks. Should also be able to enhance this move while the opponent is blocking for frame advantage (+5 maybe).

D,B+2+BLK (Hell Blast) to track your opponent and summons the projectiles under your opponent and pushes them towards you as opposed to away from you.

Bring the damage and startup in line with the regular version.

Able to be further enhanced for frame advantage (+5)

BONE SHAPER:
-B+3,1,D+2,U+2 & F+3,1,D+2,U+2 (Konquer All & Brute Strength) to be become launcher (upwards) on the last hit.

NECROMANCER:
All special moves exclusive to this variation to have a major revision to their frame data and hit boxes. Opponents can currently walk/run through his zoning attempts even though this is meant to be a zoning specific variation.


Thoughts?

 

[Fenixy]

The point of B3 is to B3~Flick, which gives you better spacing for follow up.

But here is the problem with b3xxFlick, everyone can armor through it ON REACTION and blow you away with combo. And if b3 connects, flick will wiff and you'll get punished.

NEWLY PROPOSED SHINNOK CHANGES:
Thoughts?

I think it's abit over the top.
for all variation:
2,2 Overhead, and safe 3 blocked sparks(and mabye ex shoulder to launch higher) it's all I would ask for.

 

[regulas]

NEWLY PROPOSED SHINNOK CHANGES:

*Some of my suggested changes may have been too radical, so I tried to find a middle ground with what I think are good buffs/additions to this character.

ALL VARIATIONS:
-1,1,2,3 string (Dark Magic) to become a true blockstring.

-2,2 string (Nexus) to hit Overhead, Mid.

-B,F+3+BLK (Krushing Shoulder) to have it's hitbox adjusted to consistently hit. The fireball after the move hitting to become a launcher.

-D,B+2 (Hell Sparks) to be safe if the opponent is made to block all three sparks. Should also be able to enhance this move while the opponent is blocking for frame advantage (+5 maybe).

D,B+2+BLK (Hell Blast) to track your opponent and summons the projectiles under your opponent and pushes them towards you as opposed to away from you.

Bring the damage and startup in line with the regular version.

Able to be further enhanced for frame advantage (+5)

BONE SHAPER:
-B+3,1,D+2,U+2 & F+3,1,D+2,U+2 (Konquer All & Brute Strength) to be become launcher (upwards) on the last hit.

NECROMANCER:
All special moves exclusive to this variation to have a major revision to their frame data and hit boxes. Opponents can currently walk/run through his zoning attempts even though this is meant to be a zoning specific variation.


Thoughts?

A little too much, most of what he needs is all his misses to be fixed, maybe slight change to necro tracking (aagin more of a bug fix) and to maybe have 3 hellsakrs to be like -10 so it can't be too easily punished. Some damage somwhere could help but even then we'd have to see where he's at first.

 

[Vilén]

Is it really a buff to just give a character tools?

I'd like to see Necromancer not lose entirely to basic mobility. Honestly I think Boneshaper could use close to a ground up overhaul. Don't really know much about Impostor but I bet it isn't great either.

Seriously, we need more than three or four characters that aren't all about rushdown.

 

[regulas]

But here is the problem with b3xxFlick, everyone can armor through it ON REACTION and blow you away with combo. And if b3 connects, flick will wiff and you'll get punished.

I never ever have B3~Flick wiff on anyone whether they block, are hit are ducking or standing, I've tested with various chars.

You can armor on reaction so much, like what... that has no relevance to the character speicifcally as it's a general thing that applies to everyone.

 

[Fenixy]

I never ever have B3~Flick wiff on anyone whether they block

Not when they block,but when you hit them. If b3 hits they enter in hit stun and walkaway animation and flick will wiff.
edit: lol nevermind, random bugs.
edit2: checked practice mode, oh my god it wiffs on player 2 side but connects on player 1 side...what the actual fuck

 

[Vilén]

Not when they block,but when you hit them. If b3 hits they enter in hit stun and walkaway animation and flick will wiff.
edit: lol nevermind, random bugs.
edit2: checked practice mode, oh my god it wiffs on player 2 side but connects on player 1 side...what the actual fuck

Possibly stance specific?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I can get b3 xx flick to combo but yeah he needs a lot of shit. At this point I think most of the cast easily beats him and everyone else who doesn't main him thinks he's trash tier and then when we play him we pretty much just find out why.

 

[Braindead]

I only played Bone Shaper, but I'm going to tell you this, I just need 2 very simple things changed for him:
Make 3rd hell spark hit -8 or -9 on block, and improve his throw range.

That's. fucking. all.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

And by a lot of shit, I just mean like, each variation needs SOMETHING. Apparently a friend told me who talked to two testers at a local (Paradise Found), Shinnok was the last character made, originally centered on Hellsparks being neutral on block.

Wow. If so, then why make him in the first place? A lot of MKX feels rushed in spots but... A character should never be the result of that.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

And by a lot of shit, I just mean like, each variation needs SOMETHING. Apparently a friend told me who talked to two testers at a local (Paradise Found), Shinnok was the last character made, originally centered on Hellsparks being neutral on block.

Wow. If so, then why make him in the first place? A lot of MKX feels rushed in spots but... A character should never be the result of that.

Goddammit.

 

[regulas]

Most likely they found it too strong and nerfed it in the short term.

I will say though that flicks current deign is clearly for footsies and not for zoning. A zoning move would not be this safe on block but would hit better.

I still find hellsparks has it's uses at least. It's the other hands for Necro that I find the most questionable moves he has. The EX for the one is ok for easier comboing but you could do without it and the regular version does nothing.

 

[Vilén]

I'd say RIP Shinnok but that'd be kinda hard for him.

 

[Braindead]

In bone shaper F31D2 xx hell sparks almost always connect the 3 spark hits and it does about 7% chip damage. Now if that wasn't punishable by almost everyone I wouldn't need high damage combos. That would change A LOT in my opinion.

 

[Youphemism]

I'd say RIP Shinnok but that'd be kinda hard for him.

 

[SPY]

All what he needs to be viable is to turn into Corrupted Shinnok during final round.

 

[ENDeverMORE]

I don't even think Shinnok wins any matchups

................ -___________-
God dammit man.... SMH
Well... At least you're not crying for buffs without thinking if he needs it or if it would make him too strong.
Go be considered to be a Kotal upplayer in his forums by all the people who main him