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Sheeva Discussion Thread

Zviko

Noob
I still don't understand how is Jade 5-5. There's no way. Her D4 is so abusable. She can simply dash back and do another which will punish your B4/F1, low profile your MID fireball and still recover fast enough if you jump. The only way to counter that is if you dash with her and then B4 and F1 will hit, still not much of a reward is it. But then she can not do the full dash which means you get hit again and she can even do B2 and whatever after. Even if she doesn't dash back she can simply jump and avoid anything you throw at her and still get a punish.

Basically after every D4 you have to guess what she does next and there are so many options. So it's literally never your turn. Not to mention Dodging Shadows and run special in Jaded make all her abilites useless.
 

Espio

Blade Charge
Lead Moderator
Mind explaining the Cassie mu? I haven‘t played against a single Sheeva yet but from what I‘ve heard I have a hard time to believe she wins against her with how dominating cassie‘s neutral is.
I have been playing the match up quite frequently against every variation of Cassie. This comes from a gross misunderstanding of Sheeva.

She's not Cassie or Jade, she's not trying to win the neutral in the way they are so Sheeva isn't playing that type of game. She's zoning, dashing around, mobile and such.

Cassie's wake ups are not that great and Sheeva does very well on oki and zones her out well even in Digital Soldier she creates guessing games for Cassie that she doesn't benefit from. Ground pound goes over her low shot, her regular projectile is effective and amp. Sheeva also obviously can punish/couterzone with stomp that makes her wary of playing her traditional game.

Cassie has great buttons but Smash and Grab can end all strings in gapless amp fireball that sends her far away and then Sheeva has bleed damage that Cassie has to contend with and outside of certain variation she has to advance in ways that make her deal with bleed.

I don't feel like Sheeva is well understood because I'm not beating you with traditional type of footsies like you'd see from Kabal or Jade outranging you.
 

Espio

Blade Charge
Lead Moderator
I still don't understand how is Jade 5-5. There's no way. Her D4 is so abusable. She can simply dash back and do another which will punish your B4/F1, low profile your MID fireball and still recover fast enough if you jump. The only way to counter that is if you dash with her and then B4 and F1 will hit, still not much of a reward is it. But then she can not do the full dash which means you get hit again and she can even do B2 and whatever after. Even if she doesn't dash back she can simply jump and avoid anything you throw at her and still get a punish.

Basically after every D4 you have to guess what she does next and there are so many options. So it's literally never your turn. Not to mention Dodging Shadows and run special in Jaded make all her abilites useless.
I mean I've already explained this in the other thread. I'm not going to change your mind so there's no sense in trying to do so. You think it's never your turn even though many of her buttons even on block are -13 so with that in mind where can we even proceed from there? I wanna play this Jade that cannot be touched and never lets people play the game.

The argued mindset operates under the idea that Jade is going to guess right every single time and never have any errors or never have to block which Jade's frame data doesn't allow you to never block.
 

Zviko

Noob
I mean I've already explained this in the other thread. I'm not going to change your mind so there's no sense in trying to do so. You think it's never your turn even though many of her buttons even on block are -13 so with that in mind where can we even proceed from there? I wanna play this Jade that cannot be touched and never lets people play the game.
Except you didn't really explain anything. You said wave dash when full screen, something about Emerald Defender which I didn't even ask and check every staff normal with B4, hit her with it and then start oki.
The argued mindset operates under the idea that Jade is going to guess right every single time and never have any errors or never have to block which Jade's frame data doesn't allow you to never block.
Your "check and hit her with B4" operates under the same idea then. As if she will always get hit and then it's free oki. It will not. She's -13 and she can block. She can also be +3 instead because she can cancel it into running Nitro Kick which will always leave her at perfect D4 distance to abuse it all over again. Only after a D4 ON BLOCK she has so many options while all you have is B4. Hell she can even cancel D4 into projectile and you can't do shit about it even if you duck it. Imagine having to guess so much when it's supposed to be your turn.

So what am I missing here?
 

Espio

Blade Charge
Lead Moderator
Except you didn't really explain anything. You said wave dash when full screen, something about Emerald Defender which I didn't even ask and check every staff normal with B4, hit her with it and then start oki.

Your "check and hit her with B4" operates under the same idea then. As if she will always get hit and then it's free oki. It will not. She's -13 and she can block. She can also be +3 instead because she can cancel it into running Nitro Kick which will always leave her at perfect D4 distance to abuse it all over again. Only after a D4 ON BLOCK she has so many options while all you have is B4. Hell she can even cancel D4 into projectile and you can't do shit about it even if you duck it. Imagine having to guess so much when it's supposed to be your turn.

So what am I missing here?
Your original question about the Jade match up was vague(in the other thread) if you only wanted to discuss Jaded versus her you should have said so instead of acting like how she does against ED is irrelevant when it isn't. It would be beneficial when you don't agree with someone to ask well which match up cause I think Jaded is this.

IF you're going to look at things in a very linear minded way it's never going to be a productive conversation. The reason why I am mentioning back 4 is she cannot escape after that when she's a certain frame amount negative and it sets up your oki if she doesn't respect you. Garnering respect is all about conditioning people to react a certain way and once you get people to act a certain way you can start throwing them, micro dashing up, baiting a down 2, mid staggers etc. That's how you craft a meta. If I'm making sweep seem like a big deal it's because it is (similarly to how down 4 is a big deal for Jade/imagine that).

Nobody ever said to only do that and never do anything else. It's a bad faith scenario. Characters like Jade rely on spacing you out if you can check her backward movement and set up your own game that is extremely beneficial to utilize. We also have a rewarding crushing blow off overhead if we punish a whiffed poke even that should discourage mindless poking if you're a Sheeva that spaces her out appropriately. The jade sounds like they're abusing down 4 constantly so it can't hurt to concede that aspect and use that strength against her right?

Down 4 into straight glaive sails over your head. Whiffed glaive at that range isn't plus when you duck it so she can't do whatever after it. Also down 4 on hit jails into straight glaive from what I can tell, but it's -14 on block if she wants to do that and if she does ex glaive to make it safe you can duck under it and punish her because the ex hit advances her forward and is a high so 1,2 ex grab or shield pop or whatever variation gets a combo. On whiff straight glaive is -22 but due to wind up is not full combo punishable on its own, but I can check it on block after it whiffs offline depending on what you wanna do you may have to micro dash.

As for ex shadow kick on block obviously it's good, but nobody on the roster has any counterplay for it because it's plus 3 on block and gapless lol. It's nothing unique to Sheeva or the match up. It's not your turn so nobody has a solution for it. There's no solution for Kung Lao's ex hat spin on block, but Jade still beats him for example.

The only super match up specific thing is run getting her out of dodge versus telestomp but stomp shouldn't be the core of your play with Sheeva cause it's not a move intended for that purpose, it's more of a move to force movement and counterzone. Let's also keep in mind if the Jade wants to end in pole vault she's negative in your face. This variation of Jade has to approach you in order to damage you so her out spacing you means a lot less when her entire game revolves around safe chip and block pressure up close. She also relies on people over extending and being sloppy.


People here wanna take super dismissive tones with people (I'm not struggling with Sheeva or with Jade in this match up).
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
Also b3 is a total ball ache to punish midscreen.
To be fair that is one of the Joker-esque "Negative but crazy pushback on block" buttons that I bet not much out of the Liu Kang flying kick category can punish. I've not found a reliable way to punish it with Noob or Kollector either if they space it properly.
 

Zviko

Noob
Your original question about the Jade match up was vague(in the other thread) if you only wanted to discuss Jaded versus her you should have said so instead of acting like how she does against ED is irrelevant when it isn't. It would be beneficial when you don't agree with someone to ask well which match up cause I think Jaded is this.
I did actually. You said and I quote: "Most challenging seems to be Sheeva, but that still feels 5-5."

To which I replied: "How so? Doesn't Jaded counter her completely at every range?"

From this is also clear that I'm not talking about specific Jade I've faced before that spams D4s. I'm just guessing from what I've labbed, hence the question. Because I just don't see this as 5-5 match up.

The only super match up specific thing is run getting her out of dodge versus telestomp but stomp shouldn't be the core of your play with Sheeva cause it's not a move intended for that purpose, it's more of a move to force movement and counterzone.
Exactly and to mix that up you have Tremor. And because of Tremor, short hop is a great jump bait and then into AA or projectile to snipe them from the air. That's the main mix up game for V1 Sheeva at mid-long range. Guess what, Dodging Shadows covers all of it.
 

Espio

Blade Charge
Lead Moderator
I did actually. You said and I quote: "Most challenging seems to be Sheeva, but that still feels 5-5."

To which I replied: "How so? Doesn't Jaded counter her completely at every range?"

From this is also clear that I'm not talking about specific Jade I've faced before that spams D4s. I'm just guessing from what I've labbed, hence the question. Because I just don't see this as 5-5 match up.


Exactly and to mix that up you have Tremor. And because of Tremor, short hop is a great jump bait and then into AA or projectile to snipe them from the air. That's the main mix up game for V1 Sheeva at mid-long range. Guess what, Dodging Shadows covers all of it.

Wait so you've never played the match up out.......just labbed? I have played it in matches for hours upon hours. I play both characters AND labbed it.


Dodging shadows doesn't have automatic start up and can be punished with telestomp if done errant. This is what I mean though, this labbing you are doing lacks contextual solutions or answers to in real match up applications.

Like if I scout you're gonna glow stomp and telestomp and you try to back dash or get out the way and you get punished for trying to glow the ground stomp. Guess what? I'm on top of you now and you have to guess on wake up. I've also either: added a stomp to my KB counter or my stomp KB can be triggered which is a full combo because you decided to glow. The risk/reward favorability should be very obvious.

If you're not utilizing your tools optimally and against the opponent it would seem like a big deal but it isn't actually a big deal because she cannot cover everything simultaneously. If she activates glow you could also just dash up and since it's 45 frames of activation you can move in safely.


I'm astounded.
 

Zviko

Noob
Wait so you've never played the match up out.......just labbed? I have played it in matches for hours upon hours. I play both characters AND labbed it.


Dodging shadows doesn't have automatic start up and can be punished with telestomp if done errant. This is what I mean though, this labbing you are doing lacks contextual solutions or answers to in real match up applications.

Like if I scout you're gonna glow stomp and telestomp and you try to back dash or get out the way and you get punished for trying to glow the ground stomp. Guess what? I'm on top of you now and you have to guess on wake up. I've also either: added a stomp to my KB counter or my stomp KB can be triggered which is a full combo because you decided to glow. The risk/reward favorability should be very obvious.

If you're not utilizing your tools optimally and against the opponent it would seem like a big deal but it isn't actually a big deal because she cannot cover everything simultaneously. If she activates glow you could also just dash up and since it's 45 frames of activation you can move in safely.


I'm astounded.
Of course I played the match up just not as excessively as you probably and I labbed what I had problems with but didn't find any solutions yet. My initial thought was that she has everything to deal with me while my options are VERY limited. I just didn't believe it's a 5-5 and still don't. Because all I've learned so far is utilize my tools and guess right which is the name of MK11 anyway but I feel like it's very one-sided in this match up.
 
Hey all fellow Sheeva players: just a quick question. In Dragons Blood or Deadly Dragon (lol interchange them all the time), what are the best optimals for bf3? and the b1 string? Sometimes I acknowledge I have to lift them or do more damage instead of the reset. Thank you all.

OPS-soldier
 

Wigy

There it is...
Hey all fellow Sheeva players: just a quick question. In Dragons Blood or Deadly Dragon (lol interchange them all the time), what are the best optimals for bf3? and the b1 string? Sometimes I acknowledge I have to lift them or do more damage instead of the reset. Thank you all.

OPS-soldier
B122 bf3 f3 21 bf4
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
what? I swear i get grabbed all the time when im blocking low. Isn't that the point, to catch you when blocking low?
Sheeva v3 has two special moves that visually grab low; it wasn't super clear which one you were referring to.
  • bf4 is her command grab. Visually she bends over to pick up the oppo, but it works like an overhead in that it only connects on crouching opponents (blocking or neutral crouching). Stand up (blocking or neutral) to defend.
  • db4 also looks like a grab, but it's a typical low-hitting special move. Block low to defend.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
stupid question since i don't have aftermath to lab... how are you supposed to counter low grab?
Sheeva v3 has two special moves that visually grab low; it wasn't super clear which one you were referring to.
  • bf4 is her command grab. Visually she bends over to pick up the oppo, but it works like an overhead in that it only connects on crouching opponents (blocking or neutral crouching). Stand up (blocking or neutral) to defend.
  • db4 also looks like a grab, but it's a typical low-hitting special move. Block low to defend.
THIS^^^

You're basically facing a 50/50 off of every blockstring. Actually, 33/33/33 as she can also cancel into the bf3 to put herself at +4. They'll be sure to mix that in after opening you up with the 50/50 a few times, if they feel you're scared. You can interrupt it though.
 
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Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
Can you land that f3 every time? I find it hard to time. Any tips?
You have more time than you would think you'd have to input the f3, don't rush it. The f3 recovers very quickly, you'd be surprised how soon (at least in my experience) you're able to input the follow up.

But I'm with @Wigy on this. The damage you'd get from doing this optimal is negligible. Just forego the f3, and go right into 21~ender. It's not worth dropping a combo for 2% more damage, especially in crunch time.

He's also correct about the corner combo. But here you have a choice. Basically if you input the b122 too early the 3rd hit whiffs. But you have to hit it at the earliest possible moment without the 3rd whiffing, or else you won't be able to recover in time to input 12~ender. But it's okay. 12~ender doesn't do that much more damage than d1~ender. So, if you feel you hit the b122 at the perfect time in the juggle, go for that 12~ender. If you feel you were a little late on it, just fall back to d1~ender.
 

Wigy

There it is...
You have more time than you would think you'd have to input the f3, don't rush it. The f3 recovers very quickly, you'd be surprised how soon (at least in my experience) you're able to input the follow up.

But I'm with @Wigy on this. The damage you'd get from doing this optimal is negligible. Just forego the f3, and go right into 21~ender. It's not worth dropping a combo for 2% more damage, especially in crunch time.

He's also correct about the corner combo. But here you have a choice. Basically if you input the b122 too early the 3rd hit whiffs. But you have to hit it at the earliest possible moment without the 3rd whiffing, or else you won't be able to recover in time to input 12~ender. But it's okay. 12~ender doesn't do that much more damage than d1~ender. So, if you feel you hit the b122 at the perfect time in the juggle, go for that 12~ender. If you feel you were a little late on it, just fall back to d1~ender.
Yeah its a really tight goldilocks link. Thats a good way to cover yourself. Didnt think of doing that. I just do d1 d1 d1 21 instead lol.
 
Anyone with a suggestion how to appreciate Sheeva better or is she just not that great to fight with? She has some nice spam moves like the stomp and fireballs, but outside of that I just cannot get into her. My main gripe is how they made her punch so insignificant and frustrating since she has such long arms and just cannot reach farther than probably 1-2 frames (I'm not into the technical stuff and Down 4 doesn't mean anything to me, I talk in x, v, square and circle ;)). I'm also not a fan of the shield, it's nothing special, but maybe there are a few combos or way to use that make me change my mind. Would be appreciated. As you can tell, I'm not a person who likes to fight too up-close, but also not just zone and spam.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
Anyone with a suggestion how to appreciate Sheeva better or is she just not that great to fight with? She has some nice spam moves like the stomp and fireballs, but outside of that I just cannot get into her. My main gripe is how they made her punch so insignificant and frustrating since she has such long arms and just cannot reach farther than probably 1-2 frames (I'm not into the technical stuff and Down 4 doesn't mean anything to me, I talk in x, v, square and circle ;)). I'm also not a fan of the shield, it's nothing special, but maybe there are a few combos or way to use that make me change my mind. Would be appreciated. As you can tell, I'm not a person who likes to fight too up-close, but also not just zone and spam.
I mean, it's ok to just not click with a character. You don't have to force yourself to play her.

Sheeva's strengths are about controlling the pace of the neutral game with stomp and fireball (v1) or putting her oppo in a mix blender on every touch (v3). Sounds like those are not your groove, and that you'd be happiest with a footsies/strong spacing character--but that's just not who Sheeva is. Her v2 comes closest and it is solid, but between her stubby reach (yeah, dumb, I know) and weaker zoning, there are other toons who play that game much, much better.
 

XxSYNDROISxX

"Challenging Goro eh?"
I love playing online and having people that expect nothing but Stomps but get setups instead and don't know how to deal with it
 
Ok guys, I have one serious problem and a question about this character. I have a VERY HARD TIME canceling special moves and FB from her b2, 11 string after the last hit. A little background. I am not super experienced in MK11, but I know how to do combos, cancels etc. havent played the game in a while, but I can literally do anything else with Sheeva even the bf 3, bb Mean Queen death march cancel combos with relative consistency. However the cancel on the last hist of this particular string is something that I don't understand. It doesnt seem or feel like a cancel from any of her other cancelable attacks. I have this rear moment of clarity in which I can pull of a fb 4/bf4 and FB, but when I do, I am not really doing anything special in terms of timing...and then I just start dropping it again. When I tried watching Sheeva matches I didn't really seen anyone do it(I understand that it's probably not super crucial part of her gameplan) and I have seen couple of ppl drop the cancel(u never know of course, but I got the feeling that they wanted to do a cancel in that situations).

Does anyone else have or had any problems with this. Is it something different or special about the timing that I just don't know about. I probably was able to pull it of 10 times in 1 hour...I had an easier time learning kara throws, buffered walking double 360's in SF4 back in the day....