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Match-Up Discussion - Scorpion Scorpion Matchup Discussion Thread

Vagrant

Noob
...so because it punishes one move that doesn't lead to anything?
Are you serious right now?

Lol. The fact that you don't think it "leads to anything" and don't see the significance of scorpion having the threat of this move in the neutral game and after frame advantage is actually very telling.

Think whatever you want. I don't have the time or desire to argue this
 
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Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Are you serious right now?

Lol. The fact that you don't think it "leads to anything" and don't see the significance of scorpion having the threat of this move in the neutral game and after frame advantage is actually very telling.

Think whatever you want. I don't have the time or desire to argue this.
I'm not saying he doesn't have options on oki or anything, by not leading to anything I meant the fact it doesn't lead to a full combo. I didn't say it was insignificant and your assumption that I even insinuated that "is actually very telling". I'm just trying to understand what more Cassie does in the matchup than other characters, surely you can see why I'm kind of confused considering your reasoning is that she punishes one move? He's not going to be doing F2 all the time.
 

Vagrant

Noob
I'm not saying he doesn't have options on oki or anything, by not leading to anything I meant the fact it doesn't lead to a full combo. I didn't say it was insignificant and your assumption that I even insinuated that "is actually very telling". I'm just trying to understand what more Cassie does in the matchup than other characters, surely you can see why I'm kind of confused considering your reasoning is that she punishes one move? He's not going to be doing F2 all the time.
Because what overhead option am I left with that isn't fuzziable?
What space control am I left with? My best footsie gets blown up. Meanwhile cassie is going apeshit.

F2 covers a tremendous amount of space in neutral and it's quick. The fact that the move is there is one of the sole determining factors in how people space themselves against scorpion and how they block. If you remove that threat the opponent has to respect less space and knows that they can block low and fuzzy f4. F4 is also pretty suicidal in the fast paced neutral of this game because it takes forever to start up.

It's not about the damage. It's about the threat of it being negated by a reversal that can easily be buffered out of blockstun to blow it up to the point where the risk of throwing it out greatly outweighs the reward.
 
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Vagrant

Noob
I am by no means saying the matchup is unwinnable. Scorpion still hits like a freight train. But I would say he is at a disadvantage in this matchup.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Because what overhead option am I left with that isn't fuzziable?
What space control am I left with? My best footsie gets blown up. Meanwhile cassie is going apeshit.

F2 covers a tremendous amount of space in neutral and it's quick. The fact that the move is there is one of the sole determining factors in how people space themselves against scorpion and how they block. If you remove that threat the opponent has to respect less space and knows that they can block low and fuzzy f4. F4 is also pretty suicidal in the fast paced neutral of this game because it takes forever to start up.

It's not about the damage. It's about the threat of it being negated by a reversal can easily be buffered out of blockstun to blow it up to the point where the risk of throwing it out greatly outweighs the reward.
This is what I wanted to know so thank you lol. What about Inferno specifically? What does she do in that matchup that is a problem for Scorpion?
 

Vagrant

Noob
This is what I wanted to know so thank you lol. What about Inferno specifically? What does she do in that matchup that is a problem for Scorpion?
I have no idea about inferno. I use hellfire mainly.

In inferno he loses his cancels and gets the fuzziable minions and an extra counterzoning tool. Both of which don't strike me as tools he needs to fight cassies footsie game. He still hits hard but I feel like he takes on more risk with those minions.

I can't definitively say he's at advantage or disadvantage in inferno since I haven't run it extensively.

Honestly Ninjitsu seems like the best option against cassie because of the additional space control of Ninjitsu f2.
 

big j gleez

Mains: Not Sure Right Now ...
Online warrior here: what advice would you give me to deal with scorpion scorpion players that cross up jump and teleport constantly? Also, dealing with low demon and dive kick demon.

I play cassie and sonya. I like to play footsies and slow the match down, but scorpion doesn't do either of those things. I'll backdash his jump, waiting for him to land and whiff punish, except he will teleport punch me.

Do I just need to play defensively and wait for him to tele? And when we are in a poke/counterpoke situation, just njp him because he will probably cross up?

Advice is appreciated. I feel like we are playing different games when I fight an online scorpion
I main scorp. I can tell you that to block the overhead and low, block low first. If you read overhead simply let go of down. It takes a bit of recognition practice. You can do it by both visuals and sound. Visuals is faster though. The animations are different. He also makes a grunt or barking sound when he does overhead. When he does the low grab he says "Rise".

As far as using Sonya or Cassie, you should be able to run in with a few well timed blocks. I have the most trouble against these two characters. Once you get him down, keep an eye on his meter. Pressure like a beast until he has a bar of meter. Once he does expect an EX teleport. Block it and punish it. Easier said than done but that's how you have to go about it. Find safe options to pressure or delay pressure once Scorp has a bar.

As far as crossovers, upper cuts work. Both Sonya and Cassie have two of the best in the game. Armor moves work as well. You can time a neutral jump but if he undercuts you with a jump kick he will hit confirm and go into full combo. It is risky against Scorp because of this.

As a Scorpion player I have really become aware of when my opponent will jump and reacting to jumps quickly to get into full combo. I lost this match below to a good player but you can see what I mean. I recently have labbed defense for his vortex as well and have that under control now.

 
Alright. I wish we took vids but I'm completely flabbergasted by the sonya (cov ops) matchup. Admittedly, it's my FIRST time playing against a sonya player.

1) i have no clue on what to look out for when switching between blocking hi or low. Once she's in, I always eat combo damage. I just can't read her visual cues yet....

2) her dive kick is SAFE on block. I can punish kung lao's divekick with no problem but sonya's?....wow.

3) her smaller hitbox tends to screw up how i start my combos.

Existing match vids would greatly help. I'm most proficient with inferno but I am fairly competent with the other two variations.

T.i.a.!
 

Byites

Wilson
When ever i play against a scorpion and use sorcerer quan i feel the scorpion player has no idea what to do. The armor spell destroys scorpion
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
When ever i play against a scorpion and use sorcerer quan i feel the scorpion player has no idea what to do. The armor spell destroys scorpion
Doesn't destroy ninjutsu and Hellfire.

Hellfire has setups to destroy armor, and Ninjutsu has tools straight to fight armor heavy characters
 

Byites

Wilson
Doesn't destroy ninjutsu and Hellfire.

Hellfire has setups to destroy armor, and Ninjutsu has tools straight to fight armor heavy characters
Can you explain in terms of sorcerer quan chi from full screen when i keep resetting my armor( walk out and walk back in, or jump reset it)
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Can you explain in terms of sorcerer quan chi from full screen when i keep resetting my armor( walk out and walk back in)
You probably play a lot of inferno scorpion

Ninjutsu is always close or behind you, same as hellfire, it doesn't matter if you have armor or not, ninjutsu has disjointed hitboxes, if you don't block F2 hoping to trade a hit with him will go bad because the sword hitbox is a separated limb of Scorpion, he can hit you with the swords without putting himself in your range.

Hellfire flame aura has thick unblockable damage, thos thicks eats armor at every 1 second in realtime for 10 seconds, the hellfire player just needs match an attack at the time the thick is eating the armor, and it won't matter if you can trade a blow to regen later, if he touches you first you will get stuffed out of your rune.

And even without that, 11 stuffs armor when placed as meaty, it should be enough in any variation to kick quan chi out of the rune using 114~teleport~spear...

Besides his teleport is if not the fastest in the game aside from Displacer ex teleport, i have avoided jacqui's low shotguns on reaction with that, if Rune is not faster than that, then i can see bad things happening to Quan Chi.
 

Byites

Wilson
In terms of liu kangs parry is it possible to use back 3 to punish it with a full combo ? I have been using the slide.
 

Kyu

CHOO CHOO BANE TRAIN
Having a lot of trouble fighting Tempest Lao, I was wondering what you Scorp players think of the matchup. I feel like I have no ways out of his hatspin pressure, and on wakeup I never think I'm able to get up. From what I can tell he is safe on almost everything and if I'm not only doing 214 fbc into another 214, i will get hit with reversal ex spin. I still need more exp with the match but I'm at a loss for right now. How do you guys play it?
@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@MITDJT
 

learis1

Guardian Cadet
Greatly struggling with the cassie matchup. I only play Ninjutsu scorpion. Her insane leaping punch normal is faster and farther reach than my f2. On top of that she's got one of the fastest runs in the game along with her crazy mixups and resets. I just feel like she outfootsies me, and as Ninjutsu footsies is supposed to be my strength. MY STRENGTH not hers!!!

Any tips for fighting cassie?
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Premium Supporter
Greatly struggling with the cassie matchup. I only play Ninjutsu scorpion. Her insane leaping punch normal is faster and farther reach than my f2. On top of that she's got one of the fastest runs in the game along with her crazy mixups and resets. I just feel like she outfootsies me, and as Ninjutsu footsies is supposed to be my strength. MY STRENGTH not hers!!!

Any tips for fighting cassie?
Cassie is a nightmare match for Scorp. It's even worse when using Hellfire or inferno. Ninjitsu Scorp doesn't really change his game against her, but even still she out-footsies and has a higher damage output than him. It's pretty tough man lol. Just gotta outplay your opponent.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Having a lot of trouble fighting Tempest Lao, I was wondering what you Scorp players think of the matchup. I feel like I have no ways out of his hatspin pressure, and on wakeup I never think I'm able to get up. From what I can tell he is safe on almost everything and if I'm not only doing 214 fbc into another 214, i will get hit with reversal ex spin. I still need more exp with the match but I'm at a loss for right now. How do you guys play it?
@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@MITDJT
You can low profile hat spin unless is coming with a teleport. press D4 if a hatspin lao is running towards you.
You're doing 214~fbc a lot slower, train this blockstring against the Ai in training mode, by setting them to always block and have tornado as reversal attack.

When you get able to do it without the AI interrupting is because you're doing fine.
Until you overcome this issue i can't see how will i help you.

Also this a matchup where i prefer ninjutsu due the disjointed hitbox and some ranged punishes.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
Cassie is a nightmare match for Scorp. It's even worse when using Hellfire or inferno. Ninjitsu Scorp doesn't really change his game against her, but even still she out-footsies and has a higher damage output than him. It's pretty tough man lol. Just gotta outplay your opponent.
In general or a specific variation?

Spec Ops Cassie is a nightmare when your cornered, but in the neutral game Scorp and compete.

SO Cassie is stamina and meter dependent. She doesn't have the damage mid-screen and the missiles aren't much of a factor because of the TP. I feel like Hellfire Scorpion can take advantage of her weaknesses mid screen.
 
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Xzyj

Noob
Damn i can finally talk. Hi Guys, i'm playing Hellfire shitload of time now and i can agree with the dude about Cassie - she is the nightmare matchup, not only because she can punish f2, but also because she's the queen of footsies, which scorpion has none in his useful variations, and ninjitsu has footisies but doesn't have anything else going with it.
I Also think Kotal Khan can be problematic matchup due to his amazing range and footsies, but more managable than cassie.

But overall hellfire seem to give you the most advantage out of every matchup, just because of how much options it gives you, especially when it comes to blockstring pressure. I think you just have to make your opponent "learn" to respect your options, and then read what he will do. For example if you're doing something like 214 fbc, b3 fbc, 214(which is hard to execute but a good example), or 214 fbc, 214 fbc throw and your opponent mashes armored reversal the whole time - you will get rekt after b3 fbc or at the start of throw, but you can teach him to stop mashing, by doing something like 214 fbc, 214 fbc, standing 1 - block. Since standing 1 has 0 block advantage you will be at neutral with your opponent, and he will waste his meter on pretty much nothing(and if his special is punishable you will get another free combo). Althought sitting in block after b3 fbc will probably bait a lot more consistantly than standing 1, if your opponent knows hellfire and tries to punish you for using slightly+ blockstring before going for more pressure.

I also want to say that both regular and EX tele tracking sucks vs opponents with advancing normals in some situations, because they will wiff a lot of time when you try to do it on reaction to his attack, and instead you will eat full punish -_-
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
Since standing 1 has 0 block advantage you will be at neutral with your opponent, and he will waste his meter on pretty much nothing(and if his special is punishable you will get another free combo).
Why not standing 4? Isn't it +2 on block?

Even 114 or b121 are good because they are completely safe.

Besides, HF players shouldn't start mixing up the blockstring until the opponent respects it because the full blockstring is no-risk-high-reward but pretty much every mixup has risks.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I also want to say that both regular and EX tele tracking sucks vs opponents with advancing normals in some situations, because they will wiff a lot of time when you try to do it on reaction to his attack, and instead you will eat full punish -_-
Use teleport canceç more to escape than punish characters who have backdash chasing strings, i was having some issues with that on the first month, but recently i've noticed you'd better off being neutral most of the time or at advantage for a throw in the minimum, than risk anything at the cost of meter.

Try jumping backwards too, a lot of characters who have backdash chasing strings have to respect jump backwards, becasue scorpion can teleport on reaction and track for a hit 1 frame faster than doing on the ground.
 

Xzyj

Noob
Why not standing 4? Isn't it +2 on block?

Even 114 or b121 are good because they are completely safe.

Besides, HF players shouldn't start mixing up the blockstring until the opponent respects it because the full blockstring is no-risk-high-reward but pretty much every mixup has risks.
The usage of standing 1 is good not because of frame advantage, but because of fast animation the leaves you close to your opponent, so if you do whole 114 string or b121 string your opponent will know that you finished safe string (if they know scorpion at all), and will not try to punish you for it, but for standing 1 they may think you messed up your 21 input and try to punish you. But as i said i believe the best way to bait Ex reversal is by doing b3 fbc into block at some point of the block pressure.

As for changing patterns - i believe at some points you will HAVE TO change them. After a lot of practice, my opponents started to catch 4 in 214 and escaped more pressure that way + they gain a lot of distance, so i had to either let it happen, or try to predict when they will let go of block, and do something like 21 fbc into 214, or go for risky teleport after 214 to get another combo from their descision, that results in some sort of mind game, when both of you trying to predict what your opponent will do during the blockstring.
As for mixing up b3's and f2 (sometimes even f4) i believe you have to put a scare in your opponent of potential combo, besides of just doing blockstrings, they must fear that options and try to escape your pressure - giving you even more advantage at right reads. And i almost always have 3 bars of meter in hellfire because of the pressure tools it has + how much specials it uses during combos (i even cancel fireballs at full screen sometimes for additional meter). So you always have an option of going for safe EX-spear when you want to do a read, it's not risky and it can only give you more advantage if you can get into your opponent's head.
So for me the basic thing in this pressure is to swap your patterns a lot. Bait armored move once or twice and they will stop trying to do it all the time = you have opened an option for F4 -ex spear for yourself or throw. If they always block first b3 fbc i do a lot of f2's if i have 3 bars of meter, so they will have to think what you will do, either b3 or f2. Sometimes i even do something like b3 fbc into b3 ex spear, just to be very unpredictable and make them panic during blockstrings.

Use teleport canceç more to escape than punish characters who have backdash chasing strings, i was having some issues with that on the first month, but recently i've noticed you'd better off being neutral most of the time or at advantage for a throw in the minimum, than risk anything at the cost of meter.

Try jumping backwards too, a lot of characters who have backdash chasing strings have to respect jump backwards, becasue scorpion can teleport on reaction and track for a hit 1 frame faster than doing on the ground.
Yes, that's what i've come too eventually, i'm just a bit bothered by the fact that most characters with armored combo starter will have 30+ punish with right read, but i'm forced to get punished after good read. But i guess i'll just have to get less punishes and be more safe until tracking gets buffed (maybe never).
Haven't tried jump backs, but sounds like a good option, especially because you can do something like backjump into 3~Extele for good punish, i just feel like characters with really good advancing normals, also have huge hitbox that allows them to hit aerial targets and put you into very bad situation, so i'm usually trying to block their shit now instead of escaping it.
 

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
As for changing patterns - i believe at some points you will HAVE TO change them. After a lot of practice, my opponents started to catch 4 in 214 and escaped more pressure that way + they gain a lot of distance, so i had to either let it happen, or try to predict when they will let go of block, and do something like 21 fbc into 214, or go for risky teleport after 214 to get another combo from their descision, that results in some sort of mind game, when both of you trying to predict what your opponent will do during the blockstring.
That's once your opponent is familiar with the blockstring. And I would not recommend fbc after 21 in anticipation of an attempted escape. You could get interrupted because 21 has nowhere near the blockstun of 214. As well as the EX spear read, you can also get an almost guaranteed EX hellfire if they take the last hit but you already did FBC. I say almost because if they techroll and do an armored wakeup it they can armor through.

Bait armored move once or twice and they will stop trying to do it all the time
Yeah that's what I meant. Well, I think so. They stop trying to armor through once it's clear the full blockstring can't be interrupted.

But TBH Hellfire is just broken against anyone who doesn't know the MU. It's more interesting to talk about strats vs players who know everything about him.

(i even cancel fireballs at full screen sometimes for additional meter).
I wouldn't. Stamina is too precious for hellfire IMO, you never know what you might need it for. Besides, even at fullscreen you're risking getting hit for like 1/10 of a bar.
 

Xzyj

Noob
That's once your opponent is familiar with the blockstring. And I would not recommend fbc after 21 in anticipation of an attempted escape. You could get interrupted because 21 has nowhere near the blockstun of 214. As well as the EX spear read, you can also get an almost guaranteed EX hellfire if they take the last hit but you already did FBC. I say almost because if they techroll and do an armored wakeup it they can armor through.
That's what's you gotta do to beat adaptive opponent, even tho i don't like using 21 fbc too.
I believe you actually get guaranteed ex-hellfire BECAUSE of fbc if your opponent catches 4(i remember testing that), but there is no point doing that besides if your opponent gonna die from it.

And everything i wrote was discussing hellfire scorpion vs person who knows matchup, not just random dude that doesn't try to do anything vs blockstring or gets caught by every flame aura on jumps.

As for stamina - i don't see the need in it in fullscreen, and it's not like i'm wasting all my stamina anyway. If you catch your opponent you will have all the stamina you need at every point of your combo, and you can always save enough for backdash if needed. I also prefer not using breaker even with 3 bars of meter sometimes.

I'll try to upload some casuals soon.