Sajam talks about people defending companies

[spidey300]

There's a reason most tekken players hate those games and everyone says it took them till T7 to make it right.

Well they were well received games and tekken 6 even did some things better than tekken 7 like customization

 

[S+ Main]

Yall sleeping on divekick

 

[Tanno]

NRS games aren't the only ones having problem nowadays. If you guys weren't stuck in one FG and explored the others, you'd notice the fundamental flaws that almost all of them have.

1. Some have bad netcode, because they're too stubborn in using delay based or any stupid stuff.
2. Some have been left with glitches, that make certain character matches either unplayable, or hilarious to a point that you'd quit it instantly.
3. Like NRS's games, other games have whiffing issues.
4. Some have bad mechanics, bad tutorials, bad training settings, etc.

I ask you this. Instead of talking only for NRS games, talk for more than them. Talk about Bamco's, ArcSys's, and many indie FG developing companies, like EXAMU and Lab Zero. You'll notice that all of them have these problems in common.

I'm honestly surprised that even thought it's 2019 and we are closing to 2020, those companies are stubbordly stuck and adamant with delay based, and such problems, that torment all of us. If only they asked us to test some things with them before ever releasing their games, we'd gladly help them out.

And nothing is impossible nowadays as the technology is progressing so far, and many stuff are being created to benefit everyone on all sides.

Take as example the TVs. In the past, the CRT TVs had no lag in all aspects, and we could play the games instantly without problems. Nowadays, they have LED and Plasma TVs that have a huge lag and make the games unplayable, and are fit only for movies, yet other models have less lag and make the games barely playable. I can't think of this atrocity other than a PR tactic to milk all of us.

That PR tactic is what we led ourselves into. They release unfinished games, and ask us to pay for DLC and patches. Much similar to how Microsoft does with Windows 10 and its unlimited list of problems it has.

It's like what happened with piracy. They sold broken bs and added a lot of restrictions, like region lock system, and ultimately led everyone of us to "chip" the consoles, and pirate their products to see if they have unfixed bugs and glitches before we buy them.

Sorry to tell you this, but I think not only as a bussinessman, but, also, as a customer, and I'll be honest with this. The companies lately are doing the worst PR thing. If you cannot think like a customer, then how can you satisfy your own customers? How can you earn money?

This must end now.

 

[John Grizzly]

so you're just gonna ignore t5 t6 and ttt2

Tekken 5:BR was beloved by the Tekken community, so I'll agree with you there. He also didn't mention Tekken 3, which completely raised the bar for fighting games period. However, Tekken 6 was not considered a "great" Tekken. Watch the all Bob top 8 from a few years back. And as much as I loved TTT2, the majority of players didn't. It's shame because that game had INCREDIBLE replayability and depth. I'd have more fun playing TTT2 right now than MK11 for sure.

 

[spidey300]

Tekken 5:BR was beloved by the Tekken community, so I'll agree with you there. He also didn't mention Tekken 3, which completely raised the bar for fighting games period. However, Tekken 6 was not considered a "great" Tekken. Watch the all Bob top 8 from a few years back. And as much as I loved TTT2, the majority of players didn't. It's shame because that game had INCREDIBLE replayability and depth. I'd have more fun playing TTT2 right now than MK11 for sure.

i didn't mention 3 because I believe it came out before ttt1. i remember how busted bob was but competitive nature of the games doesn't stop them from just being good products. which tekken 6 and ttt2 are.

 

[John Grizzly]

i didn't mention 3 because I believe it came out before ttt1. i remember how busted bob was but competitive nature of the games doesn't stop them from just being good products. which tekken 6 and ttt2 are.

T3 was definitely before TTT1, obviously. TTT1's gameplay was taken from T3.

I'm not giving my own opinion, just the opinion of the Tekken community as a whole, and T6, TTT2 were not considered one of the better Tekkens.

I've loved every Tekken since 3, honestly. Even 4 was really fun to me, and people haaaated that Tekken.

Most top Tekken players consider Tekken 7 to be the best version since Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection. T5: DR can't be overlooked.

 

[bumpyface]

I'm actually on board with this. .. minus the "unacceptable" privilege bs... but while the HitBoxes in MK11 and NRS in general are mainly working and working very well, I do think that a revision to how hitboxes work might be good for the company and its games.

NRS using a mesh based collision system. I think it is a relic from MK9 and the engine physics system itself. I would like to see NRS switch to a 2d Hitbox overlay system like SF uses. You know like floating 2dBoxes instead of using the mesh itself. I understand this would basically drawing board the entire game engine as is such a massive change... but mesh based collision seems pretty far from the best option at this time. I guess eventually it will become the standard, so maybe they are looking to the future, there are a lot of positives about it.. but I still like the control of the 2d box system.

Everyone should remember though, that ALL games, including 2D HitBox games have HitBox issues.



yeah.. being literally the best netcode in the entire industry is so sucky!! Damn NRS suck!!

As a actual programmer in the game industry I always love how kids assume the impossible is possible. It is like people just assuming we can land on mars as no big deal. It is a SUPER big deal.

I don't know if I agree with "working very well."

2 examples of the same hitbox issue. Honestly after the big patch just released this should of been fixed.

 

[spidey300]

T3 was definitely before TTT1, obviously. TTT1's gameplay was taken from T3.

I'm not giving my own opinion, just the opinion of the Tekken community as a whole, and T6, TTT2 were not considered one of the better Tekkens.

I've loved every Tekken since 3, honestly. Even 4 was really fun to me, and people haaaated that Tekken.

Most top Tekken players consider Tekken 7 to be the best version since Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection. T5: DR can't be overlooked.

yeah that's why I didn't bring up tekken 3 because he said since ttt1 so it would be ttt1 and up. see that's exactly what i was talking about. you're speaking from a competitive top player point of view. that's only a fraction of what matters here. tekken 6 and tag 2 did a lot of good things tekken 7 didn't do that doesn't include just how top players feel about the game. you know, the reason mk sells like hot cakes?

 

[M2Dave]

...their fireball whiffs on [insert crouching character here] actually is whining.

Complaining about low profiling, when lots of fighting games have low profiling, is whining. However, requesting that moves maintain consistent hitboxes across the board is not whining. Noob's tackle, for example, whiffs on advancing special moves even though the visual hitbox suggests otherwise. Another ludicrous example is Kitana's b+1,4 xx razors. The razors may or may not jail certain opponents depending on the side of the screen Kitana is facing. Whether you like the games or not, these types of issues are almost nonexistent in Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7. They should also be nonexistent in Mortal Kombat 11. I agree that NRS generally give the fans what they want (except Rain, I guess ) and address the vast majority of concerns in a prompt manner. I hope all hitbox inconsistencies follow soon.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Complaining about low profiling, when lots of fighting games have low profiling, is whining. However, requesting that moves maintain consistent hitboxes across the board is not whining. Noob's tackle, for example, whiffs on advancing special moves even though the visual hitbox suggests otherwise. Another ludicrous example is Kitana's b+1,4 xx razors. The razors may or may not jail certain opponents depending on the side of the screen Kitana is facing. Whether you like the games or not, these types of issues are almost nonexistent in Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7. They should also be nonexistent in Mortal Kombat 11. I agree that NRS generally give the fans what they want (except Rain, I guess ) and address the vast majority of concerns in a prompt manner. I hope all hitbox inconsistencies follow soon.

Agreed, and I hope they figure out how to bring consistency to the 3d/breathing hitboxes across stances, etc.

It’s probably buried deep into their engine, but if MK11 is on a longer cycle, it might give them more time to sort it out before the next game.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Agreed, and I hope they figure out how to bring consistency to the 3d/breathing hitboxes across stances, etc.

It’s probably buried deep into their engine, but if MK11 is on a longer cycle, it might give them more time to sort it out before the next game.

The thing is

they've used the same engine across mk9, injustice, mkx, injustice 2 and now MK11

It won't be fixed. They aren't fixing it. It is a feature at this point

 

[Jynks]

2 examples of the same hitbox issue. Honestly after the big patch just released this should of been fixed.

a few errors in the hitboes is not a major issue for me. ALL games have hitbox issues, MK11 included. Yes the game is not 100% perfect but it is, for the most part, working fine.

 

[Error404]

a few errors in the hitboes is not a major issue for me. ALL games have hitbox issues, MK11 included. Yes the game is not 100% perfect but it is, for the most part, working fine.

You quoted the wrong guy on this

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The thing is

they've used the same engine across mk9, injustice, mkx, injustice 2 and now MK11

It won't be fixed. They aren't fixing it. It is a feature at this point

Yeah, the same engine where they fixed the input bug, p1 advantage, the meter glitch, the netcode, training mode, wrong-way crossups, the negative edge window, and like 95% of the other stuff people complained about..

 

[DrFolmer]

Breh, Ling in Tekken is just there to break the game in terms of low profiling lul

 

[M2Dave]

Breh, Ling in Tekken is just there to break the game in terms of low profiling lul

Yeah, but the art of phoenix stance has been low profiling moves since Ling was introduced to Tekken. As an agile, small female character, she is designed to play this way.

To go along with the thread, here are Sajam's current thoughts and criticisms of Mortal Kombat 11.

In a nutshell, he wants customizable variations and better mid attacks for some of the low tier characters.

 

[omooba]

Crimson clearly hasn't played other fighting games that are basically light years ahead of MK in every single thing MK does except its netcode.

Are you serious dude? Attacks whiffing on certain characters is completely unacceptable. Imagine if Lion stun whiffs on only one character. Dota community will demand instant fix. Or in CS:GO, certain weapons not working properly depending on the skin your enemy has. We have been dealing with this shlt for 8 years and you say it's whining?

I believe you missed the point of the video, he plays a lot more SF, so that's why he mentioned more issues related to it. But he even mentioned Mk11 not having queue in practice mode (something we have been asking for years).

tekken 7, mvci, mvc3, smashU and sf5 all have whiffing issues... and those are just the games i have some experience with. first of all it's not an easy thing to fix especially since mk isn't a legacy game. secondly a lot of the whiffing issues are clearly a design choice. We've been complaining about female hitboxes forever, they know we've been complaining and they've chosen to leave it in, clearly that's just a design choice a lot of people disagree with

 

[Gooberking]

I know nrs has some special stuff going on with their hitboxes, but I'm going suggest you don't actually want hitbox "fixes".

Making a hitbox hit easier means making the area it impacts bigger. That may make desired edge cases more reliable, but that also means it starts to drift from the visual expectation and perhaps start being able to do more than it should.

Consistency might be a nice idea in a bottle, but there is a balancing act that has to happen between visual alignment, making sure it can do the desired stuff while making sure it can't do too much.

Move something and there is a good chance it could break something else. Hey look that combo now works on the girls, and I can now combo 3 or 4 of the larger characters with a new combo I shouldn't be able to do. Hey my new combo is inconsistent fix it you dummies!

It also means there is wiggle room for the animations because they don't have to perfectly align with the visuals, just be close enough to sell it all. An attack can use a dynamic pose when the collision setup is more accurate to a lamer variation. Who wants that? Not the guys trying to make the cool gamez. Probably mostly the other stuff though.

 

[DeftMonk]

Shitty opinion tbh

The hyper negativity doesn't do much for me

SHitty opinion doesn’t mean it’s not true. Nrs loves to steal mechanics from other games and dumb them down. See short hop (kof) or anything listed above. Nrs has many of their own mechanics tho that is true... no other game makes u mash during super combos or turn throw teching into 50/50s (real winners there). I really like nrs games and I just wish more people would be critical of this stuff since they would be waaaay better if we didn’t just have to accept certain jank.

 

[DeftMonk]

tekken 7, mvci, mvc3, smashU and sf5 all have whiffing issues... and those are just the games i have some experience with. first of all it's not an easy thing to fix especially since mk isn't a legacy game. secondly a lot of the whiffing issues are clearly a design choice. We've been complaining about female hitboxes forever, they know we've been complaining and they've chosen to leave it in, clearly that's just a design choice a lot of people disagree with

“Whiffing issue” in other game: this attack the sprite seems to go through the character but doesn’t connect... in nrs game: i did an overhead and was low profiled by opponents use of duck.

 

[Jynks]

Nrs loves to steal mechanics from other games and dumb them down.

lol... wow. Fucking hilarious. I mean you have to be a certain kind of person to think that NRs isn't innovative, if not one of the most innovative companies in the FGC. I mean, no company is perfect and no game is perfect.. MK11 like anything has room to improve.. but the sheer... man.. I'm trying to say ignorance, but not be insulting.. but seriously.. the lack of understanding about fighting games and the FGC history in the above statement is staggering. Wow.. my mind is seriously blown. Sometimes I forget that on the internet you talk to some people that literally have NO idea what they are talking about. Astounding. I mean I am seriously dumbfounded.

 

[santanabar]

“Whiffing issue” in other game: this attack the sprite seems to go through the character but doesn’t connect... in nrs game: i did an overhead and was low profiled by opponents use of duck.

Exactly. I don't care at all about those random moves "it looked like it hit but it didn't". Problem is that attacks are not consistent. If an move connects on one crouch blocking enemy, it should connect for the rest of the roster too. If overhead attacks are supposed to beat crouch blocking, nobody should be able to duck them.
Johnny cage plus frames for amp fireballs on block is a huge part of his gameplay, how can it be a "design choice" to make them whiff for some character (some of them aren't even females)?

At this point I believe it's just too much work to fix them, and they have other priorities.

 

[Marinjuana]

SHitty opinion doesn’t mean it’s not true. Nrs loves to steal mechanics from other games and dumb them down. See short hop (kof) or anything listed above. Nrs has many of their own mechanics tho that is true... no other game makes u mash during super combos or turn throw teching into 50/50s (real winners there). I really like nrs games and I just wish more people would be critical of this stuff since they would be waaaay better if we didn’t just have to accept certain jank.

That's exactly what it meant, I should know, I'm the one who typed it!

 

[C-Sword]

When NRS/Midway created their own mechanics, they gave us Klose Kombat, Free Fall and Test Your Might in MK VS DC.

 

[Vslayer]

He's right tho, we shouldn't make excuses for these games missing all these important features. Like MKX didn't have a proper ranked mode, and now we got one and I think it's cool the way it works. At least NRS improved and keeps improving.

I think SamSho having shit netcode is inexcusable and it's unfortunate because it's a fun game.