Guide - A-List Run Cancel Frame Data

[Asodimazze]

@rafaw
When i do the run cancels for max frame advantage/minimum stamina usage so double run cancels are possible on block/hit i have to slide my finger off the 4 onto f+block with my next normal while holding f, so f3, f2, f11 etc are all really doable as long as i time the shadowkick properly. Too early and the shadowkick doesnt start at all, too late and you basically option select it to not come out. By mashing out the run cancel before SK has visually started up i cant get the consistency, but if i time the bf4~f+block+2 you can only hear the shadowkick, otherwise you wouldnt even know it was there.

Are you guys saying that by timing the shadowkick a bit later i can just mash it out for the same tight cancel, because i would love that, my timing for the sk is only changing for the string im using and hit/block so am i right in thinking if i just delay it will it make it more of a universal SKRC timing?

There is no universal SKRC timing.
They said that if you wait for the last moment of the string and then input SKRCff+block like a single motion, it's more likely that you don't lose frames since you didn't hold SKRC for more than a couple frames.

 

[Dizzy]

@rafaw
When i do the run cancels for max frame advantage/minimum stamina usage so double run cancels are possible on block/hit i have to slide my finger off the 4 onto f+block with my next normal while holding f, so f3, f2, f11 etc are all really doable as long as i time the shadowkick properly. Too early and the shadowkick doesnt start at all, too late and you basically option select it to not come out. By mashing out the run cancel before SK has visually started up i cant get the consistency, but if i time the bf4~f+block+2 you can only hear the shadowkick, otherwise you wouldnt even know it was there.

Are you guys saying that by timing the shadowkick a bit later i can just mash it out for the same tight cancel, because i would love that, my timing for the sk is only changing for the string im using and hit/block so am i right in thinking if i just delay it will it make it more of a universal SKRC timing?

Nah, well what I was saying inputting the SK right at the time the opponent is put in block stun by the attack of the move you want to cancel, e.g. the last hit of 114. As opposed to inputting 114 SK, hold 4, then when the last hit of 114 connect then input ff+block.

Basically, just waiting until the end of the string and inputting bf4, ff+block all in one fluid motion instead of breaking it up. You still definitely have to know the timing of the blockstun in the string to do this, moreso than the other method.

Edit: @Asodimazze beat me to explaining it, lol

 

[zaccbarias]

so on the wall, theoretically we can do 333 skrc 333 skrc 333 mb fireballs, right? wonder how much block damage that can do

take note i said theoretically.. hehehe

 

[smokey]

Nah, well what I was saying inputting the SK right at the time the opponent is put in block stun by the attack of the move you want to cancel, e.g. the last hit of 114. As opposed to inputting 114 SK, hold 4, then when the last hit of 114 connect then input ff+block.

Basically, just waiting until the end of the string and inputting bf4, ff+block all in one fluid motion instead of breaking it up. You still definitely have to know the timing of the blockstun in the string to do this, moreso than the other method.

Yeah I didnt know there was any other way of doing it, If you hold the shadowkick you dont get the cancel out nearly as fast as doing a slide off the 4 onto your followup + block and most of the time if you input the shadowkick before the appropriate hit connects it either shoots the kick or doesnt do anything. I was mainly concerned that you said you were delaying it to make the timing easier, basically just means you arent dialling it. Thank fuck for that though, for a minute I was sitting here like "no way are these guys found an easy timing for skrc and im doing some ghetto method different for every string?" Good shit

 

[Dizzy]

so on the wall, theoretically we can do 333 skrc 333 skrc 333 mb fireballs, right? wonder how much block damage that can do

take note i said theoretically.. hehehe

I wish, but even in theory it's not possible because if it's a perfect SKRC you won't be close enough to hit them due to pushback. You don't have any frames to run and still jail them into the high attack.

 

[rafaw]

Funny how something that basic havent been discussed already in this forum.

 

[rafaw]

I wish, but even in theory it's not possible because if it's a perfect SKRC you won't be close enough to hit them due to pushback. You don't have any frames to run and still jail them into the high attack.

Once they respect our cancels, we can go for it haha, but this is not guaranted ever.

 

[smokey]

Funny how something that basic havent been discussed already in this forum.

Im done bitching if folks wanna talk tech now, but this is what ive always been saying, people hung up on crap we havent got like buffs and theres very little actual discussion on all the unique stuff cage can do. The amount of top quality stuff being posted this last few days alone by people who usually just want to talk about nutpunch hitting low is really a breath of fresh air and im enjoying the discussions!

 

[Asodimazze]

If some mod can move the Cage vs Kang posts in another thread I'll be happy to answer...I don't want to go offtopic here

 

[Dizzy]

Once they respect our cancels, we can go for it haha, but this is not guaranted ever.

@zaccbarias

If they respect the whole thing it's do 13.38% chip I think. But theres almost no way they'd take all that chip without either armor, poking, or at the very least getting hit by the last hit if 333. But, if you could pull it off, it'd surely make the person say "WTF!" lol

Im done bitching if folks wanna talk tech now, but this is what ive always been saying, people hung up on crap we havent got like buffs and theres very little actual discussion on all the unique stuff cage can do. The amount of top quality stuff being posted this last few days alone by people who usually just want to talk about nutpunch hitting low is really a breath of fresh air and im enjoying the discussions!

I'm trying to foster discussions, especially with providing some hard data to spark it. I think some good stuff has come so far. Furthermore, this weekend I'll try to record some of the SKRC frame data I haven't got to yet, and maybe even get to the dash cancels.

If anything had some frame data request for Cage that they think might be wrong in the in-game frame data, let me know too. But as far as SKRC and DCs I'll get to them all eventually probably, just doing the more common one/potentially useful ones first.

 

[rafaw]

Im done bitching if folks wanna talk tech now, but this is what ive always been saying, people hung up on crap we havent got like buffs and theres very little actual discussion on all the unique stuff cage can do. The amount of top quality stuff being posted this last few days alone by people who usually just want to talk about nutpunch hitting low is really a breath of fresh air and im enjoying the discussions!

I try to post some good discussion here an there, but almost no one ever got into it, last days we are getting some good shit going on here.

To continue the good shit:
Yesterday i was training for what to do after np, and i can do consistently this right now:
- B34skrc~F24 hitconfirm into combo or skrc~d3,if it hits you can do whatever string that dont whiff into exfb(by that time your stamina is already coming back) d3 can be armored tho.
- 114skrc~B34skrc~f24 hitconfirm into combo or exfb mix that with B343 to condition they to block high, once thats stabilished we can go for 11 in the last string.
- 114 / b34skrc into throw

Thats what i can get consistently, 333skrc~d4 can be used too, but if they block we get less chip/meter.

 

[smokey]

I try to post some good discussion here an there, but almost no one ever got into it, last days we are getting some good shit going on here.

To continue the good shit:
Yesterday i was training for what to do after np, and i can do consistently this right now:
- B34skrc~F24 hitconfirm into combo or skrc~d3,if it hits you can do whatever string that dont whiff into exfb(by that time your stamina is already coming back) d3 can be armored tho.
- 114skrc~B34skrc~f24 hitconfirm into combo or exfb mix that with B343 to condition they to block high, once thats stabilished we can go for 11 in the last string.
- 114 / b34skrc into throw

Thats what i can get consistently, 333skrc~d4 can be used too, but if they block we get less chip/meter.

I posted my nut followups earlier in a different post but you do the same, after nutpunch i go b34skrc into f2 and then mix up with the f2 options f24/f244/skrc the hits into throws.
Gotta be careful though as after the b34SKRC people can check your execution with armour (its a reaaaaaaally silly tight link and dizzy said something about f2 not hitting on frame 15 so that probably explains it more than anything) If you find thats happening then use something quicker like f3 or just run cancel block or 121 if you know you can break it. Its a blockstring so if they try armour it might not come out, but 121 on block is still very + to run cancel if that happens, so dont always assume your opponent isnt trying to armour out.
Once you have b34skrc f2 like 2 times then you get a d4 for free and they take some damage, you get another blockstring and its just annoying to get hit low when you know an overhead is coming, so encourages the ducking.
At this point a lot of people should be scared to challenge your blockstring chip after a nutpunch, because you can make a true blockstrings and they cant do anything but block, so throwing them is a good option if youre willing to close space and allow them a wake up.

 

[smokey]

@zaccbariasI'm trying to foster discussions, especially with providing some hard data to spark it. I think some good stuff has come so far. Furthermore, this weekend I'll try to record some of the SKRC frame data I haven't got to yet, and maybe even get to the dash cancels.

If anything had some frame data request for Cage that they think might be wrong in the in-game frame data, let me know too. But as far as SKRC and DCs I'll get to them all eventually probably, just doing the more common one/potentially useful ones first.

Something ive really wanted to know thats not 100% related to cage but some people mention about the startup frames for throws are different if you fw/bk throw or reversal it. Thats pretty huge for cage coming out of a run cancel and doing a back throw if its quicker they are still in blockstun so it wont connect? I have tried to test it but trying to figure out a difference of a few frames without equipment is tedious and I got nothing.

Also (this time cage tech related) Are you able to find out the frame gap between f2~4 and 1~2 hitting? From point blank range so active frames dont mess you about, but basically if we are like +7 or 8 and push 1,2 are both hits gonna be close enough together to break fast armour?
From the data ingame I think that the gap between f2~4 is 15 frames and the gap between 1~2 is 6 frames, though i would LOVE this to be confirmed as it would mean 1,2 hitting as meaty as it can should be able to trade and break the startup of any armour move that is 7 frames and cleanly beat anything slower than 8 frames.

 

[Dizzy]

Something ive really wanted to know thats not 100% related to cage but some people mention about the startup frames for throws are different if you fw/bk throw or reversal it. Thats pretty huge for cage coming out of a run cancel and doing a back throw if its quicker they are still in blockstun so it wont connect? I have tried to test it but trying to figure out a difference of a few frames without equipment is tedious and I got nothing.

Also (this time cage tech related) Are you able to find out the frame gap between f2~4 and 1~2 hitting? From point blank range so active frames dont mess you about, but basically if we are like +7 or 8 and push 1,2 are both hits gonna be close enough together to break fast armour?
From the data ingame I think that the gap between f2~4 is 15 frames and the gap between 1~2 is 6 frames, though i would LOVE this to be confirmed as it would mean 1,2 hitting as meaty as it can should be able to trade and break the startup of any armour move that is 7 frames and cleanly beat anything slower than 8 frames.

For the first part, I have looked into this actually previously, and found nothing to show that back throws are faster than forward throws at any point. Reversals however in any case, remove 1 frame of block stun resulting in them effectively (but not literally) activating one frame faster than when it is performed in neutral. This is true for all reversals though.

Regarding the second part, I did slight research into this. I will have to do some more before confirming, but in my preliminary tests the best break you'd be able to do is something like 12f startup armor with 121. Again, take this with a grain of salt until I more thoroughly test it, but it seems you won't be able to break things like EX spin from Tempest KL. I will add this to the list of things to look into, and I'll attempt to get a frame perfect recording to be sure.

Good questions! I really do like to know literally everything, so if there's something I haven't thought of or thoroughly tested I am happy it's brought up

 

[smokey]

For the first part, I have looked into this actually previously, and found nothing to show that back throws are faster than forward throws at any point. Reversals however in any case, remove 1 frame of block stun resulting in them effectively (but not literally) activating one frame faster than when it is performed in neutral. This is true for all reversals though.

Regarding the second part, I did slight research into this. I will have to do some more before confirming, but in my preliminary tests the best break you'd be able to do is something like 12f startup armor with 121. Again, take this with a grain of salt until I more thoroughly test it, but it seems you won't be able to break things like EX spin from Tempest KL. I will add this to the list of things to look into, and I'll attempt to get a frame perfect recording to be sure.

Good questions! I really do like to know literally everything, so if there's something I haven't thought of or thoroughly tested I am happy it's brought up

Yeap im always trying to learn as much as I can, not just to get an edge in the game but its a hobby and im interested in it so I love learning new stuff to try.

www.mkxframedata.com has all the frames for johnny cage, we update it to be accurate as people find inconsistencies in the pause menu data. Some of the specials (shadowkicks and nutpunches/EXes) could do with a "final word" on what they actually are, other people have tested but could do with being recorded if you get time and dont mind doing it. Basically anything in yellow on the cage chart could do with confirming.

 

[BoricuaHeat]

I'm loving all the discussion here people, keep it up!

Also @GGA Dizzy thanks for getting the exact numbers, I'll be updating the thread with new values.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

1) Cage has frame advantage off normals without SKRCs

2) Cage has an Armored launcher

3) Cage has a much better neutral game thanks to F3 SKRC

4) Cage can end every combo with nutpunch and continue his pressure game.

5) Against Liu Kang you block low and you're safe from most of his options. Against Cage you block low and you'll get opened up by f2, block high and he gets to assault you with his SKRCs to the fullest.

6) Liu Kang has plenty of whiff problems

7)Both characters have absolutely garbage Air attacks due to their ground game being so strong.

I'm not saying A-list Cage is better than Dragon's Fire Liu Kang because he isn't, but A-List has plenty of his own strengths which make him a great character.

Dragon's Fire Roo Kang= S tier
A-List Cage= A+ tier

Def not a+ with all the whiff issues. If they get fixed then i agree

 

[Derptile]

Def not a+ with all the whiff issues. If they get fixed then i agree

He's still probably A+ even with the whiff issues(still no excuse for them though), they don't happen on every character and as always WHY WOULD YOU BLOCK LOW AGAINST CAGE.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

He's still probably A+ even with the whiff issues(still no excuse for them though), they don't happen on every character and as always WHY WOULD YOU BLOCK LOW AGAINST CAGE.

also his low is - on hit and if you block it its a punish because theres a huge hole and on block that shit is sooooo - its not even funny.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Can a mod please move all the post about Cage vs Kang in the Johnny Cage general discussion thread? thanks.

@Mikemetroid

I can do that, just at work, so not right this moment.

 

[Derptile]

also his low is - on hit and if you block it its a punish because theres a huge hole and on block that shit is sooooo - its not even funny.

His 113 is pretty fucking weird I'll give you that, but since this is A-List why wouldn't you SKRC and be +1 on block? lol

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

His 113 is pretty fucking weird I'll give you that, but since this is A-List why wouldn't you SKRC and be +1 on block? lol

true but you shouldnt respect that because his slow normals and the fact that its hard to get it frame perfect

 

[Derptile]

true but you shouldnt respect that because his slow normals and the fact that its hard to get it frame perfect

Slow normals? I dunno about that.

Dude's got 9 frame 11 and 12 that's +2 on block, really good D4, essentially Cassie's B1 that's + on block in the form of F3 SKRC, a so so D1, and F2 being 15 frames really isn't slow considering its an overhead that's safe on block(+ if SKRCed), uninterruptible, and combos back into a standing reset.

Cage is soooooooo gud.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Slow normals? I dunno about that.

Dude's got 9 frame 11 and 12 that's +2 on block, really good D4, essentially Cassie's B1 that's + on block in the form of F3 SKRC, a so so D1, and F2 being 15 frames really isn't slow considering its an overhead that's safe on block(+ if SKRCed), uninterruptible, and combos back into a standing reset.

Cage is soooooooo gud.

11 and 12 start high

 

[crosstalk]

I think optimally 113skrc should always be used if you're going for a 11 mixup. On hit you can go into 113~nutpunch. It's one of his harder cancels but I think over time people will get more used to the execution. 113~ex forceballs is another good option as well, as long as you're not too predictable with it since you can armor during the special cancel.