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Guide - A-List Run Cancel Frame Data

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Another update:

F2 SKRC = +15
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +17

That's all for now.
Dizzy do you use a pad to test this? +15 after 333SKRC is honestly much more than I thought, I surely lose some frames when doing my cancels.
I wonder about how you are executing them.
 
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rafaw

#YouSuck
Now we just have to master all those cancels, and Johnny becomes a monster!
All we have tested:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +2
114 SKRC = ~+20
F2 SKRC = +15
F24 SKRC = +12
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +17
D4 SKRC = ~+6
4 SKRC = ~+20

If we get good enough after a nut punch we can get guaranted 4 / F3 / 114 / b34skrc~333skrc~f2exfb and check with a d4, if it hits we get another f3 / f2 / skrc into pressure.
 
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Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Dizzy do you use a pad to test this? +15 after 333SKRC is honestly much more than I thought, I surely lose some frames when doing my cancels.
I wonder about how you are executing them.
I do all these on stick. It's very hard to do 333 SK RC perfectly. It seems like the input buffer is VERY strict. It doesn't let you input the SK early at all compared to some other cancels. 333 in general just seems like a string with odd timing to it.

Due to becoming more familiar with the recording, I can usually tell if I didn't do them fast enough when looking at the frames. I forget the exact number, but you can only hold the SK for a very short while to get a perfect run cancel, so I can pretty easily tell if I didn't do it fast enough when watching it frame by frame.

333 and B34 are way more than i expected! Have to practice and implement way more of those.
Now we just have to master all those cancels, and Johnny becomes a monster!
All we have tested:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +2
114 SKRC = ~+20
F2 SKRC = +15
F24 SKRC = +12
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +17
D4 SKRC = ~+6
4 SKRC = ~+20

If we get good enough after a nut punch we can get guaranted 4 / F3 / 114 / b34skrc~333skrc~f2exfb and check with a d4, if it hits we get another f3 / f2 / skrc into pressure.
I was surprised too! 333 has some pushback so I doubt you can take full advantage of the +15, and the opponent can always take the last hit if you become predictable by starting your offense off nut punch with it. I think b34 seems pretty great though especially after hitting a nut punch. More chip and meter build than standing 4.

Also note, due to hitbox issues, the opponent can often shift to crouch block to make the first hit whiff of things like 114 and 333 if used other than straight off a nut punch. So things such as a mid (b34 SKRC) into 114 is not guaranteed if they crouch block it.

That said, it's be risky for them as you can throw in f2 at any time. Right now I think the best thing technically off nut punch is f2 since it guarenteed the opponent stand blocked and 1 will not whiff. On hit you will combo into stand 1 as well. This is really hard timing to do, so I haven't implemented it in my gameplay yet though.
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
I do all these on stick. It's very hard to do 333 SK RC perfectly. It seems like the input buffer is VERY strict. It doesn't let you input the SK early at all compared to some other cancels. 333 in general just seems like a string with odd timing to it.

Due to becoming more familiar with the recording, I can usually tell if I didn't do them fast enough when looking at the frames. I forget the exact number, but you can only hold the SK for a very short while to get a perfect run cancel, so I can pretty easily tell if I didn't do it fast enough when watching it frame by frame.




I was surprised too! 333 has some pushback so I doubt you can take full advantage of the +15, and the opponent can always take the last hit if you become predictable by starting your offense off nut punch with it. I think b34 seems pretty great though especially after hitting a nut punch. More chip and meter build than standing 4.

Also note, due to hitbox issues, the opponent can often shift to crouch block to make the first hit whiff of things like 114 and 333 if used other than straight off a nut punch. So things such as a mid (b34 SKRC) into 114 is not guaranteed if they crouch block it.

That said, it's be risky for them as you can throw in f2 at any time. Right now I think the best thing technically off nut punch is f2 since it guarenteed the opponent stand blocked and 1 will not whiff. On hit you will combo into stand 1 as well. This is really hard timing to do, so I haven't implemented it in my gameplay yet though.
F2 is the way to go if we want to use 114/113 after, other options we can go for after a np: 114 / 4 / f3 / f2 skrc ~ f2 / f3 skrc ~ f244, that way they cant low profile nothing and its all guaranted.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
I do all these on stick. It's very hard to do 333 SK RC perfectly. It seems like the input buffer is VERY strict. It doesn't let you input the SK early at all compared to some other cancels. 333 in general just seems like a string with odd timing to it.

Due to becoming more familiar with the recording, I can usually tell if I didn't do them fast enough when looking at the frames. I forget the exact number, but you can only hold the SK for a very short while to get a perfect run cancel, so I can pretty easily tell if I didn't do it fast enough when watching it frame by frame.




I was surprised too! 333 has some pushback so I doubt you can take full advantage of the +15, and the opponent can always take the last hit if you become predictable by starting your offense off nut punch with it. I think b34 seems pretty great though especially after hitting a nut punch. More chip and meter build than standing 4.

Also note, due to hitbox issues, the opponent can often shift to crouch block to make the first hit whiff of things like 114 and 333 if used other than straight off a nut punch. So things such as a mid (b34 SKRC) into 114 is not guaranteed if they crouch block it.

That said, it's be risky for them as you can throw in f2 at any time. Right now I think the best thing technically off nut punch is f2 since it guarenteed the opponent stand blocked and 1 will not whiff. On hit you will combo into stand 1 as well. This is really hard timing to do, so I haven't implemented it in my gameplay yet though.
I never see this stuff discussed so thanks for bringing light to the cage forum. I love b34 after a nutpunch.
My standard option after nutpunch is b34SKRC, i dunno why people use 4SKRC at all though i see it all the time, its not bad though and it works i just preferred the timing on b34.
My go to nutpunch followup is b34skrc into f2 as you get tons of options:
-f244 chip + meter build safe on block as far as i know -6 and outside cassie flip range.
-f24 -5 and can be EX balls for + frames and chip, EX nut after for frame trap, sk run cancel for + frames, backdashed to bait poke etc. has good options itself.
-f24skrc is very + on block and gets you a 11 unless they duck and potentially f3 but its hard to time (also you wont have stamina to make it safe so EX balls are your only option)
-f2 skrc ~ you have enough stamina to cancel twice so you can tick throw or go into the f2 followups. You cant skrc a 3rd time though as your stamina is gonna be too low so bear that in mind. b34skrc~f2skrc~f2(or anything faster) is a blockstring so they gotta hold it and not duck or let go of block, meaning you have more and more options.
-Once i establish the f2 is coming, b34SKRC d4 becomes basically guaranteed. d4 gives you a guaranteed f2 or f3 so you can carry on skrc pressure, grabbing you a few annoying % of damage and if people start ducking for it then they lose (cage 50/50s boys)

Note that for the run cancels on the f2 stuff you NEED to have a tight b34skrc or you blow yourself up and get a dash which off like f2sk and f24sk is not a great look, so practice the timing.
On hit the timing for the cancel is slightly different as well, but f2skrc f2 is a combo, i usually go into 113 if i see the f2skrc hits though, but thats some jedi reactions as you said.
EDIT: also some of these are real tight links after the cancel, people can check your execution with armour if they want. The solution is 1,2,1 run cancel after the b34.
 
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Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
I do all these on stick. It's very hard to do 333 SK RC perfectly. It seems like the input buffer is VERY strict. It doesn't let you input the SK early at all compared to some other cancels. 333 in general just seems like a string with odd timing to it.

Due to becoming more familiar with the recording, I can usually tell if I didn't do them fast enough when looking at the frames. I forget the exact number, but you can only hold the SK for a very short while to get a perfect run cancel, so I can pretty easily tell if I didn't do it fast enough when watching it frame by frame.




I was surprised too! 333 has some pushback so I doubt you can take full advantage of the +15, and the opponent can always take the last hit if you become predictable by starting your offense off nut punch with it. I think b34 seems pretty great though especially after hitting a nut punch. More chip and meter build than standing 4.

Also note, due to hitbox issues, the opponent can often shift to crouch block to make the first hit whiff of things like 114 and 333 if used other than straight off a nut punch. So things such as a mid (b34 SKRC) into 114 is not guaranteed if they crouch block it.

That said, it's be risky for them as you can throw in f2 at any time. Right now I think the best thing technically off nut punch is f2 since it guarenteed the opponent stand blocked and 1 will not whiff. On hit you will combo into stand 1 as well. This is really hard timing to do, so I haven't implemented it in my gameplay yet though.
After nutpunch I prefer 4SKRC, it gives enough advantage to react to how your opponent was blocking and continue your pressure accordingly.
Also, since 4SKRC gives a ton of advantage I don't fuck up everything even if I was a little late on the cancel...consistency is extremely important and nobody has perfect execution all the time, better be safe sometimes.
 
That's a good point about taking the hit from 333skrc midscreen. It might have better uses in the corner. On hit you can connect a d1 after into f3~nutpunch. You can also combo after 333~ex forceball in the corner with a d1 into the standard 12 combo.

Nice work with all the frame data, definitely helps out a lot.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Felt like doing something quick before bed, so tested the advantage on nut punch.

A-list grounded, no charge = +30
A-list air, no charge = ~+34
A list grounded, full charge = +28
A-List air, full charge = ~+32
Stunt double grounded = +22
Stunt double air = ~+24

The air numbers are height dependent, and can fluctuate one or two frames. Also it looks like the in game frame data was correct for the uncharge a-list and stunt double nut punches, which is always nice.
 

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
Felt like doing something quick before bed, so tested the advantage on nut punch.

A-list grounded, no charge = +30
A-list air, no charge = ~+34
A list grounded, full charge = +28
A-List air, full charge = ~+32
Stunt double grounded = +22
Stunt double air = ~+24

The air numbers are height dependent, and can fluctuate one or two frames. Also it looks like the in game frame data was correct for the uncharge a-list and stunt double nut punches, which is always nice.
So full charge is extremly hard to hit and only grants more damage? What a whack move stick to no charge all day
 

mrKrucifix

Just call me Kruce
So full charge is extremly hard to hit and only grants more damage? What a whack move stick to no charge all day
If you get them in the corner and manage to hit them with a B34 or a F3 cancelled into Full Charge NutPunch, then delay MB it to combo afterward back into normal NutPunch, I'd assume you'd get some hefty damage along with the re-stand. Situational, but definitely something to keep in mind I think.
 

kelevra

Steel cable bungee jumper
If you get them in the corner and manage to hit them with a B34 or a F3 cancelled into Full Charge NutPunch, then delay MB it to combo afterward back into normal NutPunch, I'd assume you'd get some hefty damage along with the re-stand. Situational, but definitely something to keep in mind I think.
Still not worth it in any way. You will always get more damage comboing into 121(full) charge into your juggle without the need to blow a bar.
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
If you get them in the corner and manage to hit them with a B34 or a F3 cancelled into Full Charge NutPunch, then delay MB it to combo afterward back into normal NutPunch, I'd assume you'd get some hefty damage along with the re-stand. Situational, but definitely something to keep in mind I think.
Not worth, i thought of that some time ago. Your better doing f3rc 121 full charge combo.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Yesterday i was in training to master 333 and b34 cancels to guaranted pressure with reversal tempest, and i notice something.
I use a fightstick, and i used to do the cancels like these: 114bf4(just dial thia all and wait until the sk start) then ff+block, this way sometimes


The diference is huge, bc lk have a fast low, and jc dont, dc is wayy better than rc bc of the stamina, and after any cancel he can link another fast move that dont whiff, jc better move that dont whiff is 11 frames 1 hit into rc.

Basically we can do 3 string max before running out of stamina and we have to do it perfect, lk cancels are way easier.
You got cut off there at the top. I'm guessing what you were going to say was that delaying the bf4 input then inputting the ff+block very quickly made it more consistent with getting close to perfect frame advantage. That's what I've found to be true at least, with the SKRCs.
 

rafaw

#YouSuck
You got cut off there at the top. I'm guessing what you were going to say was that delaying the bf4 input then inputting the ff+block very quickly made it more consistent with getting close to perfect frame advantage. That's what I've found to be true at least, with the SKRCs.
Wow i didnt even saw that i posted that, i closed the window at work bc i went into a meeting lol!
Anyways, i was going to say exacly that, inputing bf4 right at the moment it should come out is way more consistent to get almost perfect frame advantage, tkx Dizzy!
 
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smokey

EX Ovi should launch
You got cut off there at the top. I'm guessing what you were going to say was that delaying the bf4 input then inputting the ff+block very quickly made it more consistent with getting close to perfect frame advantage. That's what I've found to be true at least, with the SKRCs.
@rafaw
When i do the run cancels for max frame advantage/minimum stamina usage so double run cancels are possible on block/hit i have to slide my finger off the 4 onto f+block with my next normal while holding f, so f3, f2, f11 etc are all really doable as long as i time the shadowkick properly. Too early and the shadowkick doesnt start at all, too late and you basically option select it to not come out. By mashing out the run cancel before SK has visually started up i cant get the consistency, but if i time the bf4~f+block+2 you can only hear the shadowkick, otherwise you wouldnt even know it was there.

Are you guys saying that by timing the shadowkick a bit later i can just mash it out for the same tight cancel, because i would love that, my timing for the sk is only changing for the string im using and hit/block so am i right in thinking if i just delay it will it make it more of a universal SKRC timing?