Restricting Combos is the Biggest Fail

[TackyHaddock]

Good thing is that combo length / jugglabity are both subject to change via patches.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I thought this last night when I was watching Punk play INJ2, if this game actually delivers on the promise it seems to be making, a lot of Capcom players who are unhappy with SFV/MvCI might have somewhere else to go.

Lol what if this game brings Mike Ross back?

My biggest hope is that this becomes actual MK canon and brings all those oldheads from across the scenes back. Imagine a bunch of the UMVC3 or SF4 guys and the return of the MK9 OG's, all crossing swords with the recent generations like crossing timelines, except this time they actually stick for once instead of ditching the game Month 2 because it's actually the best game out there. For once NRS's easily accessible meta could pay off and give a whole bunch of people a way right in the door and be good enough to keep them.

 

[spidey300]

Go away MKX stan.

Also, nobody likes supers except casuals so it is what it is.

nobody likes supers except casuals? tell that to just about every 2d fighting game pro player

 

[MrWarMachine]

My biggest hope is that this becomes actual MK canon and brings all those oldheads from across the scenes back. Imagine a bunch of the UMVC3 or SF4 guys and the return of the MK9 OG's, all crossing swords with the recent generations like crossing timelines, except this time they actually stick for once instead of ditching the game Month 2 because it's actually the best game out there. For once NRS's easily accessible meta could pay off and give a whole bunch of people a way right in the door and be good enough to keep them.

Imagine, if you will, Diago vs Sonic Fox in the EVO 2019 finals? Sign me the fuck up please.

 

[stokedAF]

People liked the long combos because they did crazy damage but the combos people were using did some pretty hefty damage from what I saw. If they aren’t as long but do the same damage does it really matter? Plus you’re not building meter so you can do amplifier stuff more often.

The only thing I’m concerned about is having a full screen projectile battle every time. I hate that in fighting games and mk11 doesn’t seem to have a way to close in efficiently without the use of a teleport move. I haven’t played it yet though so I’m saving judgement and I’m still hyped.

 

[kevkopdx]

Why is it so hard to understand that some people are going to miss long combos? It’s kind of been NRS’staple for awhile so it would be a big change. People are being so nasty about things.

While we haven’t played the game yet, Ed Boon himself said they are moving away from it so why isnt it safe to assume at this point that it’s gonna be a big change?

If creating long combos has been why you love NRS games then I think disappointment is completely understandable. Not everyone is going to tournaments. This iteration might not be everyone’s cup of tea, that’s for sure.

Personally labbing big combos is super fun to me but I’m open to change, time will tell.

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

Feel me on this. In MKX, I think a decent BnB was said to do in the neighborhood of 25%-30%. That means that if the two players were at a level of execution to do that consistently, the game would amount to who maybe 4 touches or so first. At the highest levels a single touch might g for 40-60% in some cases.

My feeling is that shorter combos are actually better for competition, because it's less automatic damage. Which means more reads, mix ups, and a more lively and interesting neutral game. More touches needed=more correct reads and so forth. To me it's a positive, but I acknowledge it does lift some of the execution barrier. I just think that's a good thing.

 

[Sablicious]

If there is one thing I can claim uniquely in this forum, if not over most of the Internet, is that THE LAST thing I want is for fighting games I play to be dumbed-down [further]. To me, "casuals" to the gaming community / indsutry are like China to the world economy: Those who care only about the $hekel, will sell their mothers to them--even if it means their own, eventual suicide. However, such "casualisation" is not what I garnered from the reveal --

• "Krushing Blows" (KB) require players to gain a more intimate knowledge of their character(s), in order to understand when said mechanic kicks in, can be used and is best availed

• the 'button check' option for said KB's means that they won't be forcibly expended, and become a genuine strategic tool -- potentially providing genuinely hype-y combacks (where a player has saved up their KB's and then unleashes them in succession / 'desperation')

• the limitation on KB's (one per attack per match) means they cannot be spammed like, say, "Burns" could (/can?)

• the slower, more spacing-centric gameplay flow (based on what's been showcased) means it will be less a matter of 'first 50-50 mix-up wins', and more about reading the opponent's actions ("yomi"), then executing at the right time

• the meters no longer being tied to supers means that former mechanic becomes much more utilitarian; while the supers will actually be used beyond their past, promotional trailer fodder
exclusivity

• "Flawless Block" and "Perfect Counter" have the potential to imbue a kind of 'Street Fighter III' -like element to the gameplay -- where the tide can be changed (think: Daigo "full parry" Evo 2004) for real hype -- as opposed to the 'fake hype' of SFV's 0-HP no-chip / HP relative, ingravescent damage scaling

• bigger damage, lower hit-count comboes mean that damage scaling should not stultify the attack chains one comes up with as much -- whereas, in MKX, longer comboes were rather pointless, even undesirable, given how much meter was divvied to the punching bag

• meters regenerating automatically means that proactive play will (again) not incur the "skill plateau'ing" penalty of metering-up the opponent

• with the seeming dropping of the derivative likes of Error Blargh and Jacqui Bitch, projectile "zoning" spamming should be somewhat mitigated...

Disclaimer: This optimism is all predicated upon a lot of assumption, taking the word of Boon as gospel (⚠) and using the current build of the game as a representational measure for the full product.

To be fair, SonicFurryFetish's competitive 'disability', that seems to preclude him from exhibiting a game in an entertaining way (as distinct from just winning in whatever manner "works"), kind of made the game look more MKX-y than it perhaps is in reality -- with his low pokes and overhead scrubbo etc. abuses. However, those guys are "proe$"; and in general, what was revealed, was (for most part, and for mine eyes) promising.

 

[YoungTeezy 305]

If longer combos are only viable when performing a crushing blow I'll still be disappointed since it can only be performed once, but there's still a lot more to see so I can only wait. Hopefully I'm wrong and we see better combos as time passes.

Once your opponent knows you used your crushing blow, they might think that you wont go for the same attack because it's used up. This is where the mind games come in.

 

[ErmacMKX]

People liked the long combos because they did crazy damage but the combos people were using did some pretty hefty damage from what I saw. If they aren’t as long but do the same damage does it really matter? Plus you’re not building meter so you can do amplifier stuff more often.

The only thing I’m concerned about is having a full screen projectile battle every time. I hate that in fighting games and mk11 doesn’t seem to have a way to close in efficiently without the use of a teleport move. I haven’t played it yet though so I’m saving judgement and I’m still hyped.

It's not about the damage for me, I like longer combos because they're much more satisfying to do online. Honeybee, Dragon and Grr said that most large damaging combos will incorporate one of the blows which is meh. I know it's early but these are the pros so you kind of got to take their word for it. Put it this way I much rather do a 15+ hit combo than a 10 hit with a cinematic at the end for the same damage.

 

[Doctor Future]

So let me get this straight, if a combo in MKX does 35% and is 12 hits, and a combo in MK 11 has a combo that’s 6 hits and does the same amount of damage, its inherently worse because it’s less hits??

I for one am all for shorter combos. I know I am not the only one who hated those long drawn out combos like Cyrax and Scorpion Hellfire’s combos.

 

[FredoTwoWheels]

I liked the long combos, it was rewarding to execute them under pressure and left more of a chance for a drop and a waste of damage potential. If you want more engagements per round, then just scale down overall damage in the strings.

I am however very intrigued by the crushing blow system allowing only one use per match. If they extended combos enough, it would put far more pressure on the aggressor to execute, because if you drop, thats the end of that, you only get the one shot. Maybe the long strings could only initiate with a crushing blow, as a commitment right up front. I feel like a happy middle ground could be reached with this, allowing for one or two ultra hype high stakes input heavy combos per match.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

You know what actually gets really stale? Watching long ass bnbs that you could learn in 10 minutes in practice mode. God I hated getting hit by Kitana, takes way too long, doesnt look remotely impressive and meanwhile I could go take a dump,comeback and still watch that god awful combo. 80% of combos were like that in MKX and I'm super glad they toned it a bit in MK11.

 

[ErmacMKX]

So let me get this straight, if a combo in MKX does 35% and is 12 hits, and a combo in MK 11 has a combo that’s 6 hits and does the same amount of damage, its inherently worse because it’s less hits??

I for one am all for shorter combos. I know I am not the only one who hated those long drawn out combos like Cyrax and Scorpion Hellfire’s combos.

Whether it`s better is subjective, for me its more gratifying to pull off longer combos.If someone pulls off a complicated combo on me, I can at least give the guy props for learning it. But more simplistic combos that do more damage are not that impressive imo, especially when they`re coupled with the fatal blow mechanic which seems like a must now in comparison to X-Rays. Just my opinion. I`m not saying the game is going to suck just wish they didn`t simplify the combos, all other changes I can get use to.

 

[slamtown]

They seem about the size of mk9 combo's which is nice. Watching annoying ass cassy or scorp combo's that last forever and THEN eating a mixup just hurt. Also a more footsie intensive game needs shorter more compact combo's because now your more reacting on tight hit confirms that you got from smart spacing.

 

[Sablicious]

Just to state the obvious: The more protracted comboes in MKX (in NRS game, period) have almost always comprised of AIR JUGGLES.

Frankly, I think it serves the franchise better in the long run, if it moves away from the 'Tekken-esque' reliance on circus juggling its targets in order to register hit chains. When you think about it, many of the juggles are rather stupid-looking (e.g., low-punch juggles in the corner); compared to what more visceral, ground-based attack chaining looks like. Moreover, with the guttural effects that NRS clearly strive to convey with their games (particularly in MK's case), it makes more sense to focus on quality (power) over quality (hit-counts). To analogise, MK should be more like a Samurai Shodown (I/II/III), than it should attempt to imitate Street Fighter -- in terms of the impact of the franchise's attacks. This, not only for the sake of the weapons the game's combatants avail -- also because of the realistic aesthetic that underpins the franchise.

In my experience, I've come to see air-juggle combo systems as being (at least, having become) the lazy man's combo system: literally, even well-coded M.U.G.E.N. games do air juggling with a reasonable level of competency (infinites aside). To create an attack chain system that's 1) not comprised merely of canned dial-a-comboes, and 2) is mechanically diverse and organic enough to permit / encourage player creativity, is the holy grail of a combo mechanics. Something that is, in fact, far from impossible to accomplish. However, something that's made exponentially more difficult to implement, when the 'Baby Rattle of Damocles' dangles over the developers' heads -- forcing them to prioritise titillation (of ¢asual$) over rewarding gameplay (for the hardcore).

Suffice it to say, this is one of the myriad reasons why fighting games are so esoteric to develop, why the 90's stalwarts are still the premiere companies / IP's of the genre, and why the same, old game engines are oftentimes ridden like a John's johnson by a 2-cent-per-hour lady of the night... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bucketfeet]

Being able to nail those hard execution combos in a clutch moment under pressure without dropping them definitly showed who has good mental game in tourneys. And also the ability to change the combos on the fly depending on the situation also made it fun too ie. Switching sides to get out of a corner mid combo or choosing a hard knock as enders.

Will be interesting to see how this game turns out in that sense.

 

[SabreAndLittle]

People watch the ketchup and mustard video on Krushing Blows. Long combos are there and they are harder to perform then in mkx bc it will require knowledge of when to trigger your characters KB. So a lot more skill and experience will be necessary to pull one off in a competitive environment.

 

[Marinjuana]

I think MKX had particularly long combos compared to any other NRS game(with exceptions like MK9 Cyrax) and while it was a fun combo system, it got ridiculous when some BNBs took like 10 seconds.

I remember when the nerfed Cyrax along with the other Borgs and I honestly think they might have shaved off 5 seconds off his combos with the bomb nerf. He would extend the combo for a minor amount of damage and it sucks to play against. His combos still ended up being very long. Like it's cool to see big ass combos but some characters were kind of obnoxious with it.

But really I think the krushing blow mechanic is going to make combos fun, you'll probably end up learning a lot more situational combos than you may otherwise.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

If long combos are 60% 11 11 11 sorta nonsense or a loop of the same string then I'm all for reducing their length.

We're at day -90 though so it feels redundant to assume everything (or anything) will stay the same.

 

[Eldriken]

If the days of 20 second long Cyrax combos are gone, I'm all for it. That crap was maddening to sit through. >.<

 

[DDustiNN]

So are we just gonna ignore all the combos in this video, and pretend that Scorpion’s 15-hit 2-bar combo (10:23) didn’t actually happen? And Sub-Zero’s 9-hit meterless (05:28)? Or are we just gonna continue being outraged at a game we haven’t even played yet?

Yes the game is heavier, with less juggles, but that doesn’t mean combos are dead.

These are the guys who actually got a whole day with the game, rather than just 1-2 hours like most other people.

 

[Vslayer]

So are we just gonna ignore all the combos in this video, and pretend that Scorpion’s 15-hit 2-bar combo (10:23) didn’t actually happen? And Sub-Zero’s 9-hit meterless (05:28)? Or are we just gonna continue being outraged at a game we haven’t even played yet?

Yes the game is heavier, with less juggles, but that doesn’t mean combos are dead.

These are the guys who actually got a whole day with the game, rather than just 1-2 hours like most other people.

I agree, not to mention that crushing blows will be on more than just one string, they will give you options to extend combos or do a lot of extra damage directly or over time.

 

[Pterodactyl]

There are actually some people out there who think Krushing blows are going to slow the matches down.

They think those one second long animations are going to slow the matches down slower than those constant long ass juggles in X.

 

[MKF30]

IDK, I mean for one we haven't gotten our hands on it just yet and watching Mustard and Ketchup gameplay you can do combos, I saw a few 8-10 hit strings which isn't bad. I'll still take this change any day over lame running and mindless 50/50's, at least your opponent can get space and get up in this game. I welcome the MK 11 changes personally.