Match-up Discussion Reptile vs Cage Matchup Discussion

[Seapeople]

So I'm making this thread as part of a matchup project started by Treadmill
(http://testyourmight.com/threads/mu-project.26427/)

This is a pretty heavily debated matchup. Most people will agree that it is either 5-5 or 4-6 in Cage's favor. I personally feel like it is 4-6, but I'd rather focus on the details than numbers here.

I'm absolutely no expert against Cage but I have more experience fighting him than basically any character. I play offline against topper2ath who has a very solid Cage...hopefully he'll weigh in and give some input.
Hopefully this breakdown is a little helpful (sorry it's kinda long). There will probably be things you disagree with me about so feel free to give your thoughts and opinions.

With that said, the first thing I feel like you have to realize is that you won't be able to keep Cage out forever. You'll be able to keep him out temporarily, but the goal isn't to lame him out from full screen all day. At some point you'll be forced to play toe-to-toe against the best rushdown character in the game. The key to this match is what I would call "agressive spacing".

Playing from a distance
-Cage can try to build meter/take a little damage by trading his forceball with your acid spit or slowball, so make sure to keep him honest with fastballs.
-From a little over half screen, Cage can jump in for a full combo as soon as he sees the startup of your forceball. This is where charged ex forceballs come in handy because he won't be able to tell the difference before jumping. In general, I'd suggest playing more footsies from this range than throwing tons of projectiles.
-Trading any projectile with Cage's ex shadow kick will be in his favor because ex shadow kick does more damage than all of Reptile's projectiles + gives Cage an opportunity to advance with the knockdown. If you try using a charged ex forceball, Cage can easily ex shadow kick through it on reaction.

Forceball frame traps
-This is something a lot of people might not be aware of but is very important imo. If you are at the perfect dash-whiff distance and Cage blocks a slowball, you can elbow dash in and go straight into 321 pressure. The 321 is actually guaranteed unless Cage interrupts it with ex shadow kick or ex nutpunch (which can definitely be baited).
-If you are slightly outside of the dash-whiff distance, you can still elbow dash after the slowball and use d4.
-If you are close to full screen and he blocks a forceball, you can go invisible for free, or elbow dash into jump-distance and start playing footsies.
-The same frame trap applies to ex slowball, but since it causes pushback you will have to start inside the dash-whiff distance. Once I have an ex slowball on the screen I'll often walk my way into this distance and Cage's only options of escape will be to jump or ex shadow kick.
*Remember...aggresive spacing

Combo enders
-Reptile's d4 can cause Cage's shadow kick to whiff on wakeup, and it will hit him out of a nutpunch. His only viable wakeups would be flipkick and ex nutpunch. Try to find combo enders that utilize this.
-The NJP splat can be very useful because it gives you time to put a lot of stuff on the screen whether it be projectiles, invisibility, whiffed elbow dashes or a combination of them all.
-I'd only suggest using shenanigans like the ghetto reset very rarely when the other player least expects it.
-The reset is a decent option against Cage. The only way he can escape a follow up 321 string is with armor. (This is assuming you're using the closest proximity reset, explained here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/reset-discovery.15537/).
You can grab him out of ex nutpunch or bait the ex shadow kick on a good read.

Meter Management
-99% of the time my meter is spent on ex forceballs or breaker.
-Ex elbow dash has its uses, but I wouldn't use it too often since Cage can interrupt with a poke or ex nutpunch. If Cage ever blocks an ex dash this is my basic mixup... Throw if I expect him to block or ex nutpunch, 1 if I expect him to jump out, d3 if I expect him to poke.

Cage's pressure
Reptile has a lot of trouble getting out of Cage's pressure because your fastest poke is 8 frames and all other options are fairly risky.
-You can go for an elbow dash, but many Cage players will be good at baiting this for a full combo. Same thing goes for ex slide...generally not my preference but it's definitely worth using at times.
-Cage's f3 is 9 frames and Reptile's d3 is 8 frames...This basically means that you have a 1 frame opportunity to poke out of continuous f3 pressure. It's all about finding the holes in each player's pressure system and poking accordingly. d3~ex forceball is amazing btw. Use it
-Stand blocking might not be horrible here because most of Cage's ex forceball strings whiff against Reptile, and standing takes away the random advantage of f3 which allows you to jump backward a little more safely. However, stand blocking will make you prone to Cage's pressure with 1 and d3. I'm honestly undecided for now on whether or not this is a good option.

Footsies
-Be careful about whiffing strings like f2/f3/b1/etc because they have pretty slow recovery.
-2 is really good. If you block Cage's f33b3 for example, you can use this to keep him from coming back in immediately with more pressure. Option select it into a forceball or acid hand to be safe.

 

[Treadmill]

Good read. I never thought of throw out 2 after f33b3 that's a good idea. I usually try d4 or jump back.

#IamMuffinMuggers

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Damn this was a really good writeup. Mines not going to be anywhere near this long lol. Great job man

 

[CYracks]

d3~ex forceball? hmmm

 

[Qwark28]

Seapeople i dont play reptile but

if after a blocked forceball you dash in his face for the free blockstring, cant you just throw instead? the risk reward is heavily in reptiles favour because while both players can be baited into a punish reptile can mixup and his throw puts himself a fair distance away

after a dash you can do 3 dashes if im correct, one to get near him, another to go almost fullscreen and another to get in his face again, if im right about this then everytime reptile hits with the dash he gets 11% and sets himself in a favourable position for his METERLESS frametraps

reptile does not have to poke, if cage pokes him on block he can dash it or throw

cages d3 on hit is +2 and his f3 is 9f, you can dash that, if you know cage will hesitate then you can throw him

ill add more later but soem food for thought

again, i dont play reptile so i could be wrong

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Qwark28 Cage could always be expecting the throw or a crossover and try AAing you. If he tries AAing your throw it could actually tech the throw leaving reptile at disadvantage because of his bad/slow normals

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark28 Cage could always be expecting the throw or a crossover and try AAing you. If he tries AAing your throw it could actually tech the throw leaving reptile at disadvantage because of his bad/slow normals

rephrase that, throw when? AA a throw?

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

rephrase that, throw when? AA a throw?

If he thinks you're going to crossover and goes for aa, and you grab, it can tech the throw i mean lol. But yes throws help, just use sparingly

 

[Qwark28]

If he thinks you're going to crossover and goes for aa, and you grab, it can tech the throw i mean lol. But yes throws help, just use sparingly

crossover are very punishable, i never talked about them

you have to establish the threat of the even if you dont use it, you need to show that "hey, i can throw you for some damage and im full screen again"

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

crossover are very punishable, i never talked about them

you have to establish the threat of the even if you dont use it, you need to show that "hey, i can throw you for some damage and im full screen again"

The reason i brought up crossup is that it's a common technique reptile players use. the throw is still viable though. it's all a matter of how well cage knows the reptile match up more or less

 

[Qwark28]

The reason i brought up crossup is that it's a common technique reptile players use. the throw is still viable though. it's all a matter of how well cage knows the reptile match up more or less

not really, its pretty obvious you're in blockstun, the throw is basically just a read, id use it to bait a throw punish mindfuck

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Very good write up. When I get to a computer I will add some stuff from cage pov

 

[Seapeople]

Seapeople i dont play reptile but

if after a blocked forceball you dash in his face for the free blockstring, cant you just throw instead? the risk reward is heavily in reptiles favour because while both players can be baited into a punish reptile can mixup and his throw puts himself a fair distance away

after a dash you can do 3 dashes if im correct, one to get near him, another to go almost fullscreen and another to get in his face again, if im right about this then everytime reptile hits with the dash he gets 11% and sets himself in a favourable position for his METERLESS frametraps

reptile does not have to poke, if cage pokes him on block he can dash it or throw

cages d3 on hit is +2 and his f3 is 9f, you can dash that, if you know cage will hesitate then you can throw him

ill add more later but soem food for thought

again, i dont play reptile so i could be wrong

Going for a throw after a blocked forceball can definitely be good, but just going into a blockstring seems to catch people off guard a lot for a full combo. The throw doesn't seem guaranteed from my experience so you have to condition them to keep blocking first.
Doing a triple dash after a hit elbow dash doesn't create a frame trap since the other player isn't stuck in blockstun from a forceball.
Good point about counterpoking, I should've mentioned that. Though Cage's d3 is near impossible to punish in any way with Reptile
Trying to throw out of Cage's pressure seems like a bad idea to me, unless maybe he's hardcore trying to bait a dash/poke/ex slide.

 

[Qwark28]

Going for a throw after a blocked forceball can definitely be good, but just going into a blockstring seems to catch people off guard a lot for a full combo. The throw doesn't seem guaranteed from my experience so you have to condition them to keep blocking first.
Doing a triple dash after a blocked elbow dash doesn't create a frame trap since the other player isn't stuck in blockstun from a forceball.
Good point about counterpoking, I should've mentioned that. Though Cage's d3 is near impossible to punish in any way with Reptile
Trying to throw out of Cage's pressure seems like a bad idea to me, unless maybe he's hardcore trying to bait a dash/poke/ex slide.

triple dash after a dash ON HIT

again some of my points are based on the idea that pokes are always punishable on block which humanly most of the time is not possible but its paper kombat

throwing out of cages pressure after a blocked d3 is something he can never avoid except if he d3s twice in a row

about catching people off guard with the blockstring, youre supposed to analyse it from an equal skill lvl point of view, assuming that both players know about every single setup and frametrap of the other

 

[Qwark28]

^ also a good example of why people counterpoke instead of going straight to a string after blocking a poke

 

[Mikemetroid]

Playing RapZiLLa54 not once but twice in tournament, I still think this matchup is 5-5.

Reptile has the ability to keep up with Cage because of that low hitbox, pressure just doesn't really work that well because you can dash out of the normals majority of the time. If he didn't have a low hitbox I would definitely say that its 6-4.

 

[Seapeople]

triple dash after a dash ON HIT

again some of my points are based on the idea that pokes are always punishable on block which humanly most of the time is not possible but its paper kombat

throwing out of cages pressure after a blocked d3 is something he can never avoid except if he d3s twice in a row

about catching people off guard with the blockstring, youre supposed to analyse it from an equal skill lvl point of view, assuming that both players know about every single setup and frametrap of the other

I knew you meant to triple dash after a dash hits, but there's still no forceball on the screen to give you frame advantage when you're back in their face. It's not necessarily a bad oki option though.
Theoretically d3s can be punished by elbow dash but it's basically impossible even when scouting for it.
Until the other player starts respecting the blockstring all the time I wouldn't try going for a throw because they can still jump or duck to avoid it.

 

[Qwark28]

I knew you meant to triple dash after a dash hits, but there's still no forceball on the screen to give you frame advantage when you're back in their face. It's not necessarily a bad oki option though.
Theoretically d3s can be punished by elbow dash but it's basically impossible even when scouting for it.
Until the other player starts respecting the blockstring all the time I wouldn't try going for a throw because they can still jump or duck to avoid it.

this is what im saying with my other posts, you dont need to use an option to make people paranoid about it, just show that the option exists and make it easier for yourself to read them, the throw will come in handy sometimes and it requires risk that could set the cage player in pretty deep shit depending on lifelead and meter

never said there was advantage, i just said the uses, you wouldnt rush cage anyway, just saying that the risk reward for dash also includes a fullscreen forceball setup on hit

theoretically does not apply in this game because it requires inhuman reactions to react like that

how many frames does it take to stand up? if it takes more than 2 or so then you cant dash d3s however youll always beat everything they do if they dont hit confirm

ex shadow kick is a stupid move because it gives little space to cage and he has to spend meter to counter a meterless frametrap, its useful if the kick puts the opponent in or very close to the corner where cage can slowly make reptile gasp for air

ALSO ex dash has to be expected to be poked, if they commit then theyre fucked, they could be baiting a dash and depending on the player ( cuz lbsh were humans) might not feel confident in d1ing something thatll hit back for 17% or so

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

So the thing that gives cage the most issues in this matchup has to be ex slowball. It really allows reptile to create some space. Cage cnnot keep up with reptile's wal speed, so that is a problem. Basically cage's goal in this matchup is to get within elbow dash range and slowly back reptile up towards the corner, baiting elbow dashes or anything to get in against or punish. Reptile should be using ex slowforceball to either gain space or move forward and keep himself out of the corner, where cage's best option is to walk backwards to get out of reptiles follow up pressure, because he cannot allow reptile to build that meter back. However, what makes the matchup in cages favor imo is that when reptile runs out of meter, his options are extremely limited. He can pretty much walk back, maybe throw a couple forceballs and spits, and elbow dash to try to reverse positons. At that pint cage can pretty much run him over until his back is to the wall. Another thing to note in this matchup is max range d4acid hand. reptile can use this and walk back, and the only thing cage could really do is try a random shadow kick, which obviously can be baited. Overall, reptile needs meter to fight cage, but cage really doesnt need it to fight reptile. For this reason I say it is 6-4 cage's favor.

 

[Death]

Playing RapZiLLa54 not once but twice in tournament, I still think this matchup is 5-5.

Reptile has the ability to keep up with Cage because of that low hitbox, pressure just doesn't really work that well because you can dash out of the normals majority of the time. If he didn't have a low hitbox I would definitely say that its 6-4.

6-4 cage

 

[Mikemetroid]

6-4 cage

how can I even argue

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Ossim Possim.

 

[RapZiLLa54]

Playing RapZiLLa54 not once but twice in tournament, I still think this matchup is 5-5.

Reptile has the ability to keep up with Cage because of that low hitbox, pressure just doesn't really work that well because you can dash out of the normals majority of the time. If he didn't have a low hitbox I would definitely say that its 6-4.

Yeah I've always said this matchup was pretty even. 321acid hand followed by 2f3 keeps JC at bay. Meter management is extremely important in this matchup as Reptile has the advantage when JC has no meter. If you're going to try EX dash stuff be sure to use 124 EX dash or 2 EX dash which narrows the window of execution for JC to hit you with an EX nut punch.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Yeah I've always said this matchup was pretty even. 321acid hand followed by 2f3 keeps JC at bay. Meter management is extremely important in this matchup as Reptile has the advantage when JC has no meter. If you're going to try EX dash stuff be sure to use 124 EX dash or 2 EX dash which narrows the window of execution for JC to hit you with an EX nut punch.

While obviously any character is at a disadvantage when they are low on meter, what do you think cage really needs meter for in this matchup? I mean the occasional ex red kick or exnutpunch, but besides that he pretty much only needs breaker. I think reptile is a lot more meter dependant in this matchup. Pretty much anything into acid hand is pretty good in this matchup since it gives reptile space to either walk away or 2f3.

 

[RapZiLLa54]

While obviously any character is at a disadvantage when they are low on meter, what do you think cage really needs meter for in this matchup? I mean the occasional ex red kick or exnutpunch, but besides that he pretty much only needs breaker. I think reptile is a lot more meter dependant in this matchup. Pretty much anything into acid hand is pretty good in this matchup since it gives reptile space to either walk away or 2f3.

If you have no meter and I get any little combo ending with 321 then I have absolutely NO FEAR of you doing anything and I can keep you where I want you or atleast make you work to get near me. Red kick eliminates a lot of Reptiles combo enders and follow ups. Not having to worry about it is a nice luxury when the opportunity presents itself.