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Match-up Discussion Reptile vs Cage Matchup Discussion

UPR_Nova

Apprentice
d1 does 1% damage
you aren't blowing me up at all.. just stopping something.

11% adds up. Especially since you bascially have to eat the chip damage from the incoming projectiles as well. D1 isn't going to make me think twice about doing something...... full combo does.
I understand your logic but if im stopping your specials then how am I getting blown up. Ill put together a video for explanation because I feel im terrible at explaining otherwise. It will be up later tonight. The d1 adds another mechanic to this particular matchup because of the range on it. I will stand by that forever whether it's "accepted" or not. Its not used after every string; that would be damn retarded. Its used in particular situations (especially corner) to limit reptiles options for counter-offense. Hopefully my video can explain better than I have in this thread. Apologies for not being clear.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I understand your logic but if im stopping your specials then how am I getting blown up. Ill put together a video for explanation because I feel im terrible at explaining otherwise. It will be up later tonight. The d1 adds another mechanic to this particular matchup because of the range on it. I will stand by that forever whether it's "accepted" or not. Its not used after every string; that would be damn retarded. Its used in particular situations (especially corner) to limit reptiles options for counter-offense. Hopefully my video can explain better than I have in this thread. Apologies for not being clear.
I wasn't pointing out you were getting blown up either.

But neither characters d1 gets them a whole hell of a lot in this MU.
 

UPR_Nova

Apprentice
Sorry for not posting the video yesterday guys. I had some more pressing matters to attend to. The video should be up in the wee hours of the morning so stay tuned for it within the next few hours. Apologies in advance for any stumbling and fumbling in the vid...we were on a strict time limit because of recording capabilities.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
After f33b3 Reptile can just bait the d1, though, and either d4 any advance you try to make, or dash punish on block, or the walkback as you said.

In the corner, this is definitely better, but it's not entirely worth it anywhere else.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
After f33b3 Reptile can just bait the d1, though, and either d4 any advance you try to make, or dash punish on block, or the walkback as you said.

In the corner, this is definitely better, but it's not entirely worth it anywhere else.
One thing we didn't completely show is that Reptile can't get an actual punish against Cage's d1 with anything from this range. D3 will whiff, and I've never been able to punish d1 with an elbow dash even at point blank distance. Theoretically it's possible but idk if anyone could do it consistently. Keeping Cage in check with d4 is the best option I've found, but that still doesn't give you much advantage as d4~acid hand will put you in the same situation as f33b3.
I definitely agree that this works better in the corner though.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
One thing we didn't completely show is that Reptile can't get an actual punish against Cage's d1 with anything from this range. D3 will whiff, and I've never been able to punish d1 with an elbow dash even at point blank distance. Theoretically it's possible but idk if anyone could do it consistently. Keeping Cage in check with d4 is the best option I've found, but that still doesn't give you much advantage as d4~acid hand will put you in the same situation as f33b3.
I definitely agree that this works better in the corner though.
You don't have to d4 acid hand, though...Reptile has way too much off of d4 anyway. d1 is -13, so a 7-8f dash can be a consistent punish if the reactions are there.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
One thing we didn't completely show is that Reptile can't get an actual punish against Cage's d1 with anything from this range. D3 will whiff, and I've never been able to punish d1 with an elbow dash even at point blank distance. Theoretically it's possible but idk if anyone could do it consistently. Keeping Cage in check with d4 is the best option I've found, but that still doesn't give you much advantage as d4~acid hand will put you in the same situation as f33b3.
I definitely agree that this works better in the corner though.
i buffer the hell out of elbow dash when cage is doing his nonsense. This is the only way ive found I can punish anything.

the f33b3 range is where the entire match is a guess. Whoever makes the right one gets the momentum.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
I don't know about using dash as a counterpoke. It all sounds great on paper but if anybody can say they do it consistently I would be impressed. I don't think I've even seen anyone do it once in a tourney before. Maybe it's just me lol...I'll keep trying, but it seems like a big stretch.

the f33b3 range is where the entire match is a guess. Whoever makes the right one gets the momentum.
You could say the match as a whole is a guess since that's what it's all about, but Cage generally has more favorable options imo.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I don't know about using dash as a counterpoke. It all sounds great on paper but if anybody can say they do it consistently I would be impressed. I don't think I've even seen anyone do it once in a tourney before. Maybe it's just me lol...I'll keep trying, but it seems like a big stretch.



You could say the match as a whole is a guess since that's what it's all about, but Cage generally has more favorable options imo.
Same goes for people who say they punish dash everytime.
Unless you expect it.... you don't punish it... plain and simple. I honestly don't feel like I can't win the match. I may have to work a tad harder... but I never feel completely out of control.
Granted... I don't have nearly the same control with SZ.... but I feel like I can use setups to make him respect options.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
Same goes for people who say they punish dash everytime.
Unless you expect it.... you don't punish it... plain and simple. I honestly don't feel like I can't win the match. I may have to work a tad harder... but I never feel completely out of control.
Granted... I don't have nearly the same control with SZ.... but I feel like I can use setups to make him respect options.
Punishing elbow dash is cake, you don't have to be scouting it. Have you guys actually tried punishing d1's with elbow dash? I'm taking your word on it but this is nothing like punishing elbow dash.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Punishing d1 with dash is hard, especially on pad. No doubt. Possible, but hard. Dash's input is mostly to blame for this. On stick/hitbox, dash comes out REALLY easy...on pad, the motion drives thumbs crazy lol. If the motion were df, it would be a lot easier.

Punishing a dash on block, though, really isn't. Again, I don't even play vs Reptile that much, but offline, he gets smacked with 2 FFB a good majority of the time.
 

Treadmill

Champion
Punishing elbow dash is cake, you don't have to be scouting it. Have you guys actually tried punishing d1's with elbow dash? I'm taking your word on it but this is nothing like punishing elbow dash.
I've never had it work....haha even when I deliberately bait a d1 to try haha
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Offline against good opponents, dash gets punished at least 95% of the time with a full combo.

Shit is soooo unsafe.
I don't believe this at all really.
I've watched many a tourney match where Dash goes unpunished. Almost on the same level as people ducking cutter. Maybe after long sets it starts happening.... but in a FT3 to go to top 8... not as often.
Especially when strings are staggered and the reptile does stuff to change his pace.

But yeah... I'm just trying to point out how unfair it is to say "I can't punish d1 with dash.... " when it is possible, yet throw out that Dash itself is not a good way to get cage off of you. If he literally reads every dash you do..... maybe its time to change it up?
 
You guys who say dash gets punished every time should watch Chris g vs m2dave at evo 2012. I was amazed by how little it got punished. Twice in 50 times? Lol. When i play against reptile i know i can punish it more often than not even when not expecting it.
I'm honestly amazed by how little i get punished sometimes, granted i use it more to move around/punish small windows lol
 

Chuckychuck

Warrior
Punishing elbow dash is cake, you don't have to be scouting it. Have you guys actually tried punishing d1's with elbow dash? I'm taking your word on it but this is nothing like punishing elbow dash.
I do it quite often but you do have to be looking for it.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
You guys who say dash gets punished every time should watch Chris g vs m2dave at evo 2012. I was amazed by how little it got punished. Twice in 50 times? Lol. When i play against reptile i know i can punish it more often than not even when not expecting it.
I'm honestly amazed by how little i get punished sometimes, granted i use it more to move around/punish small windows lol
Dave not punishing dash is inexcusable because I was at Console Combat enough lol! TRUST ME, no one was screaming at the stream about how he played Chris more than me.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
I don't believe this at all really.
I've watched many a tourney match where Dash goes unpunished. Almost on the same level as people ducking cutter. Maybe after long sets it starts happening.... but in a FT3 to go to top 8... not as often.
Especially when strings are staggered and the reptile does stuff to change his pace.

But yeah... I'm just trying to point out how unfair it is to say "I can't punish d1 with dash.... " when it is possible, yet throw out that Dash itself is not a good way to get cage off of you. If he literally reads every dash you do..... maybe its time to change it up?
idk which players you are watching, but every single good player that I've played has punished me nearly every single time.

Maybe you're watching old videos? I mean we don't even see Reptile that much anymore.



Anyway trust me, I may not be one of the best Reptiles, but I definitely have some of the most offline experience with him, and I can guarantee that good players punish it near 100% of the time.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
idk which players you are watching, but every single good player that I've played has punished me nearly every single time.

Maybe you're watching old videos? I mean we don't even see Reptile that much anymore.



Anyway trust me, I may not be one of the best Reptiles, but I definitely have some of the most offline experience with him, and I can guarantee that good players punish it near 100% of the time.
Ok. I'm not one to argue. I think its fairly easy to punish myself.

Yeah... most of the videos are old. Reptile is not hip to the jive anymore.
 
Dave not punishing dash is inexcusable because I was at Console Combat enough lol! TRUST ME, no one was screaming at the stream about how he played Chris more than me.
Yeah Idk why it got p punished so horribly, maybe the evo stage is intimidating and he want being himself or something. Maybe you play a much more different style of reptile than him and he want prepared for so much dash, but man it was hard to watch lol
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Yeah Idk why it got p punished so horribly, maybe the evo stage is intimidating and he want being himself or something. Maybe you play a much more different style of reptile than him and he want prepared for so much dash, but man it was hard to watch lol
In all honesty, that much dash was easy to see lol. As soon as Dave made him realize he needed to be close to do anything, and he had almost no way to put a forceball on screen, I knew that was gonna happen. But Dave not punishing them made me scream some bloody murder.

I know SquirtMcGirt will fuck up any Reptile that tries to dash on his Freddy now lol.
 

UPR_Nova

Apprentice
If you make a punish every time against d1 with elbow you are just the bossest titties of all boss titties. In my opinion, this is the equivalent of saying "I poke out of continuous f3 pressure by cage when I don't expect it. Or even I poke out of liu king's b3,1 into b3,1,2 mixup every time, even when I don't see it coming." Yes, there are counters to everything in this game whether you want to admit it or not, however, if im a solid player that does a great job of disguising my intentions mid-match, techniques such as this among many others suddenly become "viable". Hell, ive seen standing 1 into standing 2 into d3 into f3 pressure work for johnny before. On paper that sure as hell dont work, but in practice the opponent stands there like its a frame trap. That sounds like to me that any techniques brought out now are diminished if the frame data says they aren't possible. Cool. Next time when im mileena playing against kabal ill just stand there and eat NDCs because my normals are too slow and I can't jump because his d1 should beat that.

By the same token, if we are to break down techniques saying that it can be countered with this and that then there is no point is discovering anything new as it will be simplified and tossed to the side if that technique can be countered in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Furthermore, if you can execute 1 frame gap punishes in your sleep then why aren't you winning anything. Not speaking to anyone directly, just making a point. This tech (if you can even call it tech) is being treated as if it will turn this matchup into an 8-2 for cage. As per the words of STB CharlieMurphy 's quote, I should be standing 1 bitch slapped by sub zero if I thought that.

It really brings up something about my old school main liu kang. I mentioned something in a video about f4 playing a valuable role in footsies because of its extreme advantage on hit and being neutral on block. I was laughed at saying b3 was the superior option. It recovers like ass but that's neither here nor there. After the Blades guide was introduced mentioning the f4 you see nothing but "Oh I never thought of that!" and "Great find!" Am I concerned about getting credit? No. But the guy that has 10 posts should be treated the equal of those with 10,000. Ideas come from everywhere and the ones that aren't perfect always have the opportunity to be polished and perfected.

Is that d1 something that rapes reptile? No. But is it something that keeps his funky ass in check? You're damn right.