Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

[TrulyAmiracle]

Does anyone have experience against a decent Hawkgirl?

Does anyone have experience against an almost completely airborne Hawkgirl?

I've been caught by Singularity sometimes even when I'm at max height, it seems dependent on the stage as some of them have higher ceilings (Themyscira is low so you'll catch her but cellblock is higher so it wont etc). Pillars work if you can pinpoint it to where she's at, hella hard though. I'd say your best bet is to try to control space and catch her before she gets to reach max height, SC her when she's jumping (her jump is slow and very floaty) or stay in mid-range alot so you can use lift to punish her, plus i dont think HG has anything that'll punish SC/lift unless she's semi-close range).

Most of the hawkgirl players seem to think its in Raven's favor but i personally dont see it, if i play it right Raven cant catch me at all it seems.
maybe coz i havent fought a good Raven yet? idk.. I'll be down to do some sets with any of you guys and help figure out the MU.

 

[Villest1]

Strat for Scopion is to wait for NRS to nerf. Until you can actually react to his teleport he will control the match from the get-go to the very end. He's completely safe on knockdown with flip kick and MB teleport, the best you can do is avoid his moves. Meter-burning teleports is what makes this match even worse than batgirl since he still has the advantage even if you manage to block. Also all of batgirls wakeups can be baited and punished unlike scorpion. The best you can do is try to get the first hit and try to keep momentum, of course you can't though because there is no way in the game to scare a scorpion from using MB teleport.

Tom Brady explains how to deal with Scorpions wake up options.

 

[Vogue]

I've seen that video. Note that there are zero punishes shown. That means he literally gets to wakeup for free regardless of spacing . Full screen he can MB teleport , up close just flash kick . All safe, as I said the best you can do is avoid his options not punish him. Basically if you are beating scorpion he doesn't know how to play.

 

[Sami]

Villest1 rogue re: scorp's wake-up game

Using f22u1 as a combo ender (which you should always do, always) and following it up with ji2 beats every single one of Scorp's wake up options.

Bloody Spear: hit by ji2
Hell Fire: hit by ji2
Flip Kick: both moves will wiff (arc of the flip kick misses you completely). You recover quicker and can punish.
Leg Takedown: both moves will wiff
Super: ji2 will hit the armour or wiff completely. You can still block the super.
Teleport Punch: invincible to ji2 but you recover quick enough to block the punch. This requires a good reaction. Don't madly mash buttons into a combo after ji2 against Scorp otherwise the teleport punch will hit you.


Out of principle I don't think teleport attacks (not plain punishable teleports) should have invincibility frames, especially as one as quick as Scorpions. However, compared to other characters his wake up game isn't that bothersome when you're in control, and for all but 1 option (tele) you're able to full combo punish with ease.

Something that looked hopeful but I wasn't able to test was using b3 MB just before the wake-up comes out (useful for situations where you can't guarantee a safe jump-in kick). It beats all normal wake-up attacks even when released early, but I don't know if it beats MB teleport. The animation on b3 moves her forward quite a lot which may well cause the follow-up hit on MB teleport to miss.

Or, at range just follow Brady's video and neutral jump

 

[Vogue]

MB b3 doesn't beat teleport it doesn't autocorrect in time and he hits you from behind. If he MB teleport on wakeup no matter what you are not going to punish and he is at advantage, also by combining him you just gave him meter.

 

[Sami]

MB b3 doesn't beat teleport it doesn't autocorrect in time and he hits you from behind. If he MB teleport on wakeup no matter what you are not going to punish and he is at advantage, also by combining him you just gave him meter.

It doesn't need to auto-correct. The whole point is that you do it so you end up moving away from Scorp. B3's attack won't hit Scorpion as he'll be on the other side, but you get to armour through the first hit from the teleport and probably back-dash out of the 2nd from MB.

B3 MB definitely works against regular teleport but I've got nobody to try the MB teleport with at the moment and I'm tired of sitting in training mode

 

[nugava]

Sorry if it's already posted... And sorry for the poor quality of the video... But is that a viable option to counter crazy divekickers ?
(Singularity should be done in the beginning of the divekick... It seems hard for me to do that in reaction... (And doing that on every back or neutral jump of Black Adam is maybe unsafe... I don't know, I did not try online yet...)

 

[Qwark28]

Espio and anyone else

can you guys give me ravens blockstring and how to use demon stance? zoning is straightforward but i dont know anything about her close up game, what string to use to hitconfirm, that to poke with, setups, etc. all i know is her main + string is backdashable on the last hit.

appreciated

 

[Vogue]

Link for demon mode http://testyourmight.com/threads/raven-demon-mode-tech-anyone.31493/

Link for normals http://testyourmight.com/threads/ravens-normals.33438/

F2233 is a safe overhead string that comes out fast and gives knock down.

B3 is okay as a poke about a character and a half length apart, she goes back first which can avoid some moves

MB f3 is good against single hit pokes in close range

B23 is a back moving push out move that has airborne frames to avoid throws and lows

D1 is +1 on block , can do for throw or f22 strings afterwards

F222 is fast and knocks away on hit.


That's all I really use, I think f22u1 is safe but never used it outside a combo personally.

Hitconfirm : all I can use is 223 which can be interrupted on last hit by super or backdashed . But it's okay sparingly .

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Link for demon mode http://testyourmight.com/threads/raven-demon-mode-tech-anyone.31493/

Link for normals http://testyourmight.com/threads/ravens-normals.33438/

F2233 is a safe overhead string that comes out fast and gives knock down.

B3 is okay as a poke about a character and a half length apart, she goes back first which can avoid some moves

MB f3 is good against single hit pokes in close range

B23 is a back moving push out move that has airborne frames to avoid throws and lows

D1 is +1 on block , can do for throw or f22 strings afterwards

F222 is fast and knocks away on hit.


That's all I really use, I think f22u1 is safe but never used it outside a combo personally.

Hitconfirm : all I can use is 223 which can be interrupted on last hit by super or backdashed . But it's okay sparingly .

Have you tested d1 to see if the frame data is wrong? Says -1 & has never felt positive on block.

 

[Vogue]

Shit, sorry it is -1, I might have been thinking of Lex or something.

 

[Villest1]

Villest1 rogue re: scorp's wake-up game

Using f22u1 as a combo ender (which you should always do, always) and following it up with ji2 beats every single one of Scorp's wake up options.

Bloody Spear: hit by ji2
Hell Fire: hit by ji2
Flip Kick: both moves will wiff (arc of the flip kick misses you completely). You recover quicker and can punish.
Leg Takedown: both moves will wiff
Super: ji2 will hit the armour or wiff completely. You can still block the super.
Teleport Punch: invincible to ji2 but you recover quick enough to block the punch. This requires a good reaction. Don't madly mash buttons into a combo after ji2 against Scorp otherwise the teleport punch will hit you.

F22U1 is the kick flip move where she kicks you over her and switches sides right? You use that to end combos? If I remember correctly when used to end combos she does not switch sides and your opponent kind of just drops in front of you ?

And when you do Ji2 is it a neutral jump ? Interesting stuff. I'm going to have to hit the lab with it but just want to make sure I understand correctly.

 

[Sami]

F22U1 is the kick flip move where she kicks you over her and switches sides right? You use that to end combos? If I remember correctly when used to end combos she does not switch sides and your opponent kind of just drops in front of you ?

And when you do Ji2 is it a neutral jump ? Interesting stuff. I'm going to have to hit the lab with it but just want to make sure I understand correctly.

f22u1 only flips them over you at the start of a combo. Otherwise, it leaves them the perfect distance away for an ambiguous cross-up jump-in 2. f22u1 at the end of a combo is also a hard knockdown so they can't tech-roll out of it.

Unless facing characters with quick invincible wake-up attacks or wake-up anti-air grabs, always always always end with f22u1 and then try to cross them up with a jump-in 2 as they wake up. 50/50 chance of landing another high-damage combo. Ending combos with f222~df2 will give you slightly more damage (a couple of percent) but prevents all follow-up pressure. Lose 3% off the combo to gain a 50% chance of doing another 40%+ combo. And of course, that one is ended with f22u1 as well so you keep looping.

40%+ assumes 1 bar of meter used. There are meterless versions but they obviously don't do enough damage.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

f22u1 only flips them over you at the start of a combo. Otherwise, it leaves them the perfect distance away for an ambiguous cross-up jump-in 2. f22u1 at the end of a combo is also a hard knockdown so they can't tech-roll out of it.

Unless facing characters with quick invincible wake-up attacks or wake-up anti-air grabs, always always always end with f22u1 and then try to cross them up with a jump-in 2 as they wake up. 50/50 chance of landing another high-damage combo. Ending combos with f222~df2 will give you slightly more damage (a couple of percent) but prevents all follow-up pressure. Lose 3% off the combo to gain a 50% chance of doing another 40%+ combo. And of course, that one is ended with f22u1 as well so you keep looping.

40%+ assumes 1 bar of meter used. There are meterless versions but they obviously don't do enough damage.

Interesting...I've never thought of that...

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

So... any thoughts on the Grundy and Superman matchups? those 2 are a real pain for me atm so any tips on those MUs would be appreciated.

 

[Sami]

Fuck Grundy. Just... fuck Grundy. Worst match-up by far

 

[Qwark28]

So... any thoughts on the Grundy and Superman matchups? those 2 are a real pain for me atm so any tips on those MUs would be appreciated.

Fuck Grundy. Just... fuck Grundy. Worst match-up by far

grundy sucks because raven has no fast advancing whiff punishers and her b23 string is almost useless because it can be uppercut on reaction to doing it against WCC

the fact that grundy can outzone and outchip raven is terribad, her wakeups are very easy to stuff outside demon stance and soulcrush or lift arent fast enough to whiff punish.

if grundy also manages to get a decent lifelead or hit you with a fullscreen interactible while having the no chip chain then its like mk9 scorpions spear on whiff, you say ggs and restart.

Asodimazze

 

[Asodimazze]

grundy sucks because raven has no fast advancing whiff punishers and her b23 string is almost useless because it can be uppercut on reaction to doing it against WCC

the fact that grundy can outzone and outchip raven is terribad, her wakeups are very easy to stuff outside demon stance and soulcrush or lift arent fast enough to whiff punish.

if grundy also manages to get a decent lifelead or hit you with a fullscreen interactible while having the no chip chain then its like mk9 scorpions spear on whiff, you say ggs and restart.

Asodimazze

I have to say that despite playing the MU with you in the last 2 days, I still don't have enough experience to judge it, I've never fought Raven before (never found one online before you).

In my opinion the MU is 5-5, If Grundy manages to get the chip trait early it will be a huge problem for Raven, but if she gains the lifelead and Grundy doesn't have the trait on, it's hard for Grundy too.
He can't throw out random MB SH endlessly trying to get lucky and getting in against her is not easy, expecially because of the 3/4 screen grab.

From our matches it also looks that if she jumps over SH/MB SH from fullscreen, she gets a decent punish because grundy recovers too late. Not many chars can do that.

I also have to test what her throw immune strings are: I'm pretty sure she has at least 1 or 2 and that might give Grundy a few problems.

 

[Qwark28]

I have to say that despite playing the MU with you in the last 2 days, I still don't have enough experience to judge it, I've never fought Raven before (never found one online before you).

In my opinion the MU is 5-5, If Grundy manages to get the chip trait early it will be a huge problem for Raven, but if she gains the lifelead and Grundy doesn't have the trait on, it's hard for Grundy too.
He can't throw out random MB SH endlessly trying to get lucky and getting in against her is not easy, expecially because of the 3/4 screen grab.

From our matches it also looks that if she jumps over SH/MB SH from fullscreen, she gets a decent punish because grundy recovers too late. Not many chars can do that.

I also have to test what her throw immune strings are: I'm pretty sure she has at least 1 or 2 and that might give Grundy a few problems.

when i punished you it was because of anticipation, she cant jump it on reaction and punish, noone in the game can do that.

she has no answer for WCC, getting in is ridiculously easy when you have WCC and SH are unpunishable and catch all projectile attempts and are a constant threat, if she gets caught once she losess life that she can't make back.

 

[Sami]

when i punished you it was because of anticipation, she cant jump it on reaction and punish, noone in the game can do that.

she has no answer for WCC, getting in is ridiculously easy when you have WCC and SH are unpunishable and catch all projectile attempts and are a constant threat, if she gets caught once she losess life that she can't make back.

Grundy's AA throw wake-up also completely stuffs all of Raven's combo loops. The only loop that actually works is attempting a cross-up after a standing reset from Event Horizon MB as he won't have wake-up invincibility.

 

[Qwark28]

Grundy's AA throw wake-up also completely stuffs all of Raven's combo loops. The only loop that actually works is attempting a cross-up after a standing reset from Event Horizon MB as he won't have wake-up invincibility.

forgot about that one. a large part of why she cant get the lifelead back from grundy unless he screws up, even then you need 2-3 combos to do what grundy does for pocket change

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

Yeah i figured the matchup sucks coz Raven doesnt have anything to beat the armor, anything airborne to try avoiding his grabs and her wakeup sucks so if he knocks you down you're done..

I got spoiled by how easy it is for fight Grundy as Hawkgirl, then i had to deal with that deadass as Raven and it got me omega salty >__>

 

[Sami]

Yeah i figured the matchup sucks coz Raven doesnt have anything to beat the armor, anything airborne to try avoiding his grabs and her wakeup sucks so if he knocks you down you're done..

I got spoiled by how easy it is for fight Grundy as Hawkgirl, then i had to deal with that deadass as Raven and it got me omega salty >__>

In fairness though, none of Hawkgirls run-away tactics work against Raven

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

In fairness though, none of Hawkgirls run-away tactics work against Raven

hmmm how so? unless she has the life-lead imo Hawky wins this.

 

[Sami]

hmmm how so? unless she has the life-lead imo Hawky wins this.

Sorry, I was referring to the tactics employed against Grundy (i.e. stay in the air), which against Raven generally equate to a free demon stance followed by masses of pillars.