Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

[Blind_Ducky]

Bullshit. The maximum possible chip is 20% from 10 consecutive pillars. This never happens.

If someone is smart they'll walk forward or backward slightly after blocking a pillar and stop right in the gap between pillar ranges. As long as they don't overdo walking forwards then Soul Crush will not punish. One of the pillar distances will hit, but it is impossible to know which one because you don't know exactly where the opponent is going to stop walking. This alone halves Raven's chip output.

Also Soul Crush is not -17.
I'm guessing you're basing that on Aquaman's db2 being listed as 18f and not punishing it as a reversal, but that doesn't hit on frame 18, and reversals don't behave normally.

Did I give an exact percent? I said about a quarter 20% is pretty close to 25%. A lot of people don't know how to play raven and if someone panics, they'll sit there eating chip. It's also possible for the raven player to move, changing where the pillar appears. I trust EGP Wonder_Chef who said he tested the soul crush and said its actually -17

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Me and Red Reaper tested that pretty early on. I think we tested it multiple ways.

 

[Sprint]

Did I give an exact percent? I said about a quarter 20% is pretty close to 25%. A lot of people don't know how to play raven and if someone panics, they'll sit there eating chip. It's also possible for the raven player to move, changing where the pillar appears. I trust EGP Wonder_Chef who said he tested the soul crush and said its actually -17

I said 20% is the maximum possible and that this never happens. It's incredibly easy to bait out whiffed pillars by standing at the ambiguous range in between the different distances. 10% is a more realistic amount; nowhere near a quarter.

...and that's assuming being content on blocking. A whiffed pillar provides just enough time to dash on reaction without being punished.

Someone doesn't know how to play against Raven? They don't fucking matter. You shouldn't ever be losing to that sort of player anyway.

And for the record I don't think Raven needs buffs, but she's not as good as you've hypnotised yourself to believe.

Also 60fps video puts Soul Crush at -18/19. It's hard to be certain due to the game engine being a bit quirky, but it's definitely one of the two. It might even be both (seriously... the game engine is that weird).

 

[AugustAPC]

Yes, to get best movement against Demon Form, you have to make reads and get in the Raven's head. Sure they're not gonna follow up the pillar with a grab or crush? Then you can dash. It's up to the Raven to make it tricky. But you can always inch forward until you block a crush or grab. That's always a free dash or punish.

 

[Sami]

Back on topic:

B23~4 is safe against Aquaman's From The Deep (ground trident) as you have just enough time to block it. It seems he can block a follow-up Event Horizon (frame data is a lie). However, if he ends up in Soul Crush range after b23 and tries to trident you, you can block it and follow up with a crush.

Not sure whether Event Horizon data or From The Deep's frame data is incorrect. EH has a start-up of 22 frames, FTD is -24 on block. I'm going to assume this is the game extends EH start-up depending on distance, although it doesn't work at point blank range either. Tested it in the corner too to no avail.

Negative Mass (23f start-up) gets blocked as well :/

 

[Sprint]

Back on topic:

B23~4 is safe against Aquaman's From The Deep (ground trident) as you have just enough time to block it. It seems he can block a follow-up Event Horizon (frame data is a lie). However, if he ends up in Soul Crush range after b23 and tries to trident you, you can block it and follow up with a crush.

Not sure whether Event Horizon data or From The Deep's frame data is incorrect. EH has a start-up of 22 frames, FTD is -24 on block. I'm going to assume this is the game extends EH start-up depending on distance, although it doesn't work at point blank range either. Tested it in the corner too to no avail.

Negative Mass (23f start-up) gets blocked as well :/

From what I can gather based on watching back a few 60fps recordings:
- Listed startup for projectiles does not include its first active frame. Add 1 frame.
- Listed frame advantage for projectiles is miscalculated due to the above. Add 1 frame to that too.
- When returning from blockstun, the game forces a neutral state for one frame and this is not taken into account by the framedata. This effectively adds 1 frame to every block advantage with regard to reversal attacks. I have not yet tested to see if this also applies on hit.

Applying this theory to Raven vs Aquaman (not specifically tested, but seems to add up):
- FTD is listed as -24 on block.
- Projectile. Add 1 frame to listed advantage. -23.
- Add 1 frame to advantage due to forced neutral frame. -22.
- Event Horizon startup is listed as 22 frames. Actually hits on frame 23. Blocked.

- Soul Crush listed as -20 on block.
- Projectile. Add 1 frame to listed advantage. -19.
- Add 1 frame to advantage due to forced neutral frame. -18.
- FTD startup is listed as 18 frames. Actually hits on frame 19. Blocked.

Edit @ 2013/06/03: There is also a possibility that the attacker may also have a forced neutral frame after recovering from their move. If this is the case then the forced neutral frame does not affect the frame advantage, but as it would be possible to block on this frame a reversal needs to be 1 frame faster in order to punish. The result follows the same math as above, but it would be more accurate to think of it as adding 1 frame to the startup of the reversal rather than to the recovery of the blockstun.
I'll try to test a bit more thoroughly later. My equipment isn't fully set up at the moment due to taking my console to an event yesterday.

 

[Red Reaper]

Me and Red Reaper tested that pretty early on. I think we tested it multiple ways.

Red Reaper and I*

lol...

Yeah. Weird unreliable frame data when it komes to multi hit moves and specials..

 

[Villest1]

Anyone have any strats for Scorpion? From what I can tell after day 1 it seems like he's going to be a real pain in the ass for Raven. It's tough to do anything when dealing with his Hellfire, teleport and spear. I'm almost scared to move at all(now I know how people feel when they say the same about Raven. BibleThump)

Holding down to block rather than down back is pretty much a MUST. It allows you to block both spears and teleports easily. You really have to watch out for hellfire though.


HELLFIRE - Its unblockable and It's seems to be super fast and pretty safe. From what I can tell its almost impossible to react to especially online. For me at least. If you can predict it your Soul Crush will beat it out. You can also try to dash out of it and punish but again you have to pretty much predict it. Interesting thing about hellfire is its absorbable by Empty Void but again I'm not sure how practical this is. You can try to jump it and punish when you land but its recovery is pretty fast. You can interrupt it with anything as long as the flame hasn't appeared on screen yet.

BLOODY SPEAR - you can just duck this and punish with pretty much anything you're in range for. It's also extremely punishable on block but IMO you should spend most of this fight crouch blocking anyway. Bloody Spear in NOT absorbable by Empty Void.

TELEPORT PUNCH - both normal and air teleports are extremely unsafe as long as they don't meter burn them. Meter burn teleports are +9 on block. Normal teleports can be punished by anything but you have to punish him while he is spinning in the air before he lands.

LEG TAKEDOWN - This move is ridiculously unsafe on block so punish however you see fit.

FLIP KICK - this move is surprisingly absolutely safe. (-1 on block). Be careful approaching Scorpion on his wake up. A lot of them will throw this out.

WELCOME TO THE NETHER REALM(SUPER) - this super is slow as shit. As long as you haven't committed to anything when it's activated you can jump it after the flash. It does hit in behind so just be careful.

Haven't tested any of his strings yet but with the exception of 3 or 4 they are pretty safe.

On paper it doesn't seem like it would be that bad for Raven but dealing with ALL his shenanigans is pretty rough...

 

[Sami]

No console today so unable to test, but would you mind answering a couple of questions?

1) Does teleport punch have invincibility on wake-up? Asked because NRS recently buffed teleports to have invincibility frames, but this is a teleport + attack in one.
2) Is Flip Kick an overhead? Asked because Batman's air special kick can be blocked low.

 

[Villest1]

No console today so unable to test, but would you mind answering a couple of questions?

1) Does teleport punch have invincibility on wake-up? Asked because NRS recently buffed teleports to have invincibility frames, but this is a teleport + attack in one.
2) Is Flip Kick an overhead? Asked because Batman's air special kick can be blocked low.

1. If I recall correctly Leg Takedown, Teleport and Flip Kick all have invincibility on wake up.
2. Thankfully Flip Kick is not an overhead. It hits mid.

 

[AugustAPC]

I deal with him the same way I deal with Batgirl. I bate teleports and punish. Once he sees that, he'll start going for the hell fires, then you just punish those on reaction. It's all about getting in Scorpion's head. He's fast, and you can't sleep on him.

 

[Villest1]

I deal with him the same way I deal with Batgirl. I bate teleports and punish. Once he sees that, he'll start going for the hell fires, then you just punish those on reaction. It's all about getting in Scorpion's head. He's fast, and you can't sleep on him.

You can "react" to Hellfire?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[AugustAPC]

You can "react" to Hellfire?


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Well, I suppose it's more of a read. Like I said, get into their head. Once they've eaten punishes on their baited teleports, they'll generally become more hesitant to make moves. That's when the hellfire's coming. It's pretty easy to make a hellfire whiff, so then you can punish hard.

 

[Sami]

Disclaimer: still no console to test

Would DF2 would as a read for HF/Tele? Against HF you would get Soul Crush which chances are will be in range, while against teleport you would get Singularity (which should also be in range), assuming the 2 is input just after Scorps switches sides. I've no idea how the teleport frames are split between front/back so it might not work at all.

Oh oh, another question: as the animation for Raven's teleport lifts her off the ground, does that mean it will negate Hellfire? Not sure if the game actually treats her as being off the ground or not.

 

[Villest1]

Wow great ideas! Unfortunately it seems like the Teleport punch switches sides too fast for the df2 to auto correct itself but if you make the read and act quick enough df2 can interrupt the Teleport/HellFire start up. Timing is really tight and it depends on spacing as well. Ravens Teleport to negate Hellfire on the other hand works perfectly and if timed right a allows you to get a full punish in.

 

[Villest1]

Btw guys after watching/reading a recent article by Under_The_Mayo about using backdash and audio cues to avoid interactables I decided to test some stuff out with Raven. It seems like the majority of thrown interactables are able to be backdashed out of (including the Pig from the Mess Hall )

but not only that. Other things such as certain characters unblockable moves are avoidable using the invincibility from back dashes i.e. Green Arrows Super. (Currently testing this theory out on specific Green Arrow Super Setups)

The timing on different things obviously vary and most are really strict as to when to input the backdash. It will take a ton of practice but imo its worth knowing/learning.

Here's the link to Under_The_Mayo 's story :http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-backdash-through-interactables-audio-cue-tech.33306/

Sorry if this stuff is old...

 

[SaltShaker]

Btw guys after watching/reading a recent article by Under_The_Mayo about using backdash and audio cues to avoid interactables I decided to test some stuff out with Raven. It seems like the majority of thrown interactables are able to be backdashed out of (including the Pig from the Mess Hall )

but not only that. Other things such as certain characters unblockable moves are avoidable using the invincibility from back dashes i.e. Green Arrows Super. (Currently testing this theory out on specific Green Arrow Super Setups)

The timing on different things obviously vary and most are really strict as to when to input the backdash. It will take a ton of practice but imo its worth knowing/learning.

Here's the link to Under_The_Mayo 's story :http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-backdash-through-interactables-audio-cue-tech.33306/

Sorry if this stuff is old...

Nice. Hell I'm pretty good in this game but I don't know if I'll ever be able to backdash that pig in match speed.

 

[Villest1]

As far as the Pig goes you have to be looking for it in order to react accordingly and compared to other interactables/unblockables it's not that difficult to get the timing down. However in Ravens case if you see them going for it you can just Soul Crush them and deal with it that way. They cant MB the Pig so no worries there.


On a side note I have been testing Ravens backdash with Green Arrow Unblockable Super Setups and it seems like in most cases we are able to escape it. All the setups I have tried are escapable with Raven's backdash. I recorded a couple of the setups that I found on youtube for proof. If you know of any other Setups that I can test plz let me know. Thnx!

Some are more difficult than others. In this case pt.3 was the hardest to escape because you have to tech roll and then backdash. I don't see being able to pull this stuff off 100% of the time simply because the timing is EXTREMELY strict but if you're caught in an seemingly unavoidable super reset why not at least try to escape it?

 

[Sami]

Are there any GA setups that leave more of a gap between hit-stun and super activation? If not, it seems to be mash back to avoid. The fewer frames he tries to leave between the hit-stun and super explosion, the more reliable mashing back will be.

 

[Rickyraws]

Does anyone have experience against a decent Hawkgirl?

Does anyone have experience against an almost completely airborne Hawkgirl?

 

[Sami]

Does anyone have experience against a decent Hawkgirl?

Does anyone have experience against an almost completely airborne Hawkgirl?

If you can get into demon stance you can pillar her out of the air into full combo. Depending on her height you can also jump-teleport (best done on a reaction) and follow-up the teleport with an air-kick into combo, but this is risky.

edit: need to MB the pillar to go into full combo

 

[Rickyraws]

If you can get into demon stance you can pillar her out of the air into full combo. Depending on her height you can also jump-teleport (best done on a reaction) and follow-up the teleport with an air-kick into combo, but this is risky.


edit: need to MB the pillar to go into full combo

Dunno but I heard that at max height, pillars can't touch her. They were spewing this nonsense (if it IS nonsense) at the Hawkgirl forums. I exited quickly before they realized I was a spy, so I couldn't inquire.

 

[Sami]

Dunno but I heard that at max height, pillars can't touch her. They were spewing this nonsense (if it IS nonsense) at the Hawkgirl forums. I exited quickly before they realized I was a spy, so I couldn't inquire.

Unless practice mode is lying to me they are very, very wrong

 

[Vogue]

Strat for Scopion is to wait for NRS to nerf. Until you can actually react to his teleport he will control the match from the get-go to the very end. He's completely safe on knockdown with flip kick and MB teleport, the best you can do is avoid his moves. Meter-burning teleports is what makes this match even worse than batgirl since he still has the advantage even if you manage to block. Also all of batgirls wakeups can be baited and punished unlike scorpion. The best you can do is try to get the first hit and try to keep momentum, of course you can't though because there is no way in the game to scare a scorpion from using MB teleport.

 

[Kiko]

I usually don't care about cheapish antics and scorpion doesn't necessarily scare me.

What does however is the fact that the teleport can be unblock able sometimes because even crouch blocking gets you owned.