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Breakthrough - Cyrax Rant inc - Cyrax is a monster!

Wigy

There it is...
and this is everything?
take away the iceball and demo sonya had everything he has and better. i'm not saying he shouldn't have been toned down but dude didn't have everything. everyone was so dramatic and normally when people are that dramatic, you can still here the voice of reason saying "yo cill he's nasty but let's just calm down for now". but as soon as reo said he's broke gameover
You say 'take away his ice ball' like it was a minor thing.

It Was ridiculous.

Divekick being impossible to punish was a big thing.

He also got good setups off knockdowns midscreen and in the corner.

Anyways i dont wana derail the thread so agree to disagree. I think if he hadnt been nerfed he would have been alien or worse.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
sonya has a fullscreen armored slide, a backdash move that cancels into anything including set-up, safe divekicks that turn bombs into HTB's, and an extended hitbox sword that reaches 2/3's of the screen? fuck thats just the tip of it, CSZ still has stuff sonya doesnt have (and vice versa), CSZ pre nerf 1 was ridiculous. Nerf 2 heavily over did it, and nerf 3 was just ridiculous, but let's not act like he was fine on release lol
the trade off for a "backdash move" was possible the worst pokes in the game. yes she has safe divekicks which didn't lead to htb but they lead to damn near worse. the sword? seriously? the sword? it's a high. the man doesn't even have a decent mid. the man was nasty but compared to the top 5 characters we had he was far from broke. dude they left tanya longer than him. they left quan longer than him both of which where worse but as soon as reo says he's broke poof gone

You say 'take away his ice ball' like it was a minor thing.

It Was ridiculous.

Divekick being impossible to punish was a big thing.

He also got good setups off knockdowns midscreen and in the corner.

Anyways i dont wana derail the thread so agree to disagree. I think if he hadnt been nerfed he would have been alien or worse.
honestly you can replace ice ball with a bomb but you're missing the point. sure agree to disagree
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
The setup at 24:35 is escapable with a tech roll followed by jump back.
If they tech roll jump back 2+4 catches them mid jump.

Jump out is a good option though! B1 hits them so you might be able to b1net!

If your opponent is using this to escape dash forward for the NJP htb and you do it earlier to punish them hard.

Keep going though! knowing its weaknesses is good.
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
That video was excellent. I sat down and watched the entire thing and listened to everything you had to say. After playing Bruno I was taking back with how good Cyrax is - I had no idea. After watching your video that's the cherry on top. You've convinced me to pick up Cyrax for funsies.

Wish I could emphasise how much I loved your video; nothing but calm and logical explanations, good detail, and passion in your voice. Seriously, good job.
 

PND_Mustard

"More stealthful than the night"
Premium Supporter
Official ESL Gaming
This is a really neat corner set up, just tested every option and when you time the b3d4 right yes, the only way out is to wakeup (provided the wakeup moves you out of the bomb radius) or to block the HTB, and yeah this one is an instant overhead low.

As for the long rant though, I really don't understand the need for such a negative shot to the Cyrax folks, the general opinion on Cyrax has always been (and will remain until competitively proven otherwise) that he is a character with an incredible amount of setup potential, but terrible matchups that don't let him enforce any of it, appalling neutral that most characters in the game can fully exploit with very little effort, and across the board a lot less reward for good reads than his counterparts in sektor and smoke.

The community didn't just wake up in the morning and think that Cyrax sucks, the character has been hit by a huge amount of nerfs since release, the things nerfed and taken away would help in a huge way with the weaknesses he has developed to have.

I personally believe that Cyrax is not a bottom tier character. however I do not see him being anything better than smack bang right in the middle. It's hard to form a solid opinion as my opportunities to use him competitively are massively limited, however the bulk of my time with the character has been spent playing against world class players online/offline, and after having long discussions with many players about him.

I have a huge amount of respect for your lab work and effort in bringing these videos to life, however these digs at particular Cyrax players are, in my opinion, incredibly uncalled for considering many of the players you are ridiculing as doing things wrong play against some of the absolute best players online and sometimes offline. I really do not think it's fair for you to basically say: "I know I'm not good at the game but I'm still going to talk down to these players based on my training mode findings despite their regular use of this character against amazing players."

The corner setup you have demonstrated is really good, but make sure you're staying realistic, this is not meta shifting/game changing for every match in the game, it is a good corner reset with a tidy amount of damage payout. It doesn't fix his otherwise glaring issues everywhere outside the corner.

If you believe Cyrax is an amazing character, I applaud you, you are welcome to think that, however I ask that you prove it by playing competitive players. You are in EU and play all the time, so I would love to set up matches of you playing against F0xy/Madzin/Ketchup/Irish Mantis etc. It is without a doubt the best way for you to prove to us that the character is leagues better than people give it credit for.

I love Cyrax, I love everything about playing Cyrax, he is by far the funnest character in the game for me, however I really don't appreciate the shade being thrown because you seem to feel that Cyrax players just simply aren't putting the effort in.
 

PND_Mustard

"More stealthful than the night"
Premium Supporter
Official ESL Gaming
Just heard the comment at 22 minutes, you midunderstood dude. You didn't come in and say "hey guys, here is a weakness to f3 and here are alternatives using f13", you came in saying "f3 is bad and if you use it you're playing the character wrong and I see Cyrax players using it and they don't know what they're doing so here is f13" and then you proceeded to do the f3 setup wrong.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
It isn't just a tech video, its a rant, i put that in the title. Yes there is tech there, but I made this video for multiple reasons.

If people can't be arsed watching or skipping then they don't have to watch it. I personally hate 30 second clips with no explanation on timings or placements, I end up spending 30 minutes just working out how to replicate the tech in the first place.

I can also understand people who like just getting down to point, time is important but not everybody has the same problem and some might enjoy having something to watch.

If i could chop bits out I would but I don't have the software to do it and it means re-recording the video everything I mess something up or ramble on for too long.
i had the same issue when i recorded a single stream, so i just used windows movie maker (you already have it) and cut out the bits that were unnecessary, ended up trimming down my video to like 1/3 but still kept all the content

just some advice, because honestly, i cant watch this man, maybe other people are different but giving you feedback from me alone, i dont have time for a 10 minute introduction and then a 5 minute segue into another 15 minute seminar about the tech, no matter what you label it. I'm sure it's good stuff tho
 

omooba

fear the moobs
you are being ridiculous. a high is a fuckload better than nothing, especially considering the knockdown it gives.

the worst fuckin logic ever, "they left tanya and quan in for too long when they were broken why doesnt CSZ get the same" it was a BAD thing when they did it for tanya and quan. drop the attachments to a single character, the health and balance of the game is much more important than "how long my character was allowed to be broken for".


and Sonya's divekick" led to damn near worse" than a HTB? What, full combo punish against Sonya? the point is that with a bomb set-up, both divekicks were full combo on hit, but CSZ could use his to get a HTB on BLOCK into full combo, AND recover instantly
by that logic. ANYTHING is a fuckload better than nothing.
and seeing as how your input on this conversation has degraded to this point yeah i'm done talking to you
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Just heard the comment at 22 minutes, you midunderstood dude. You didn't come in and say "hey guys, here is a weakness to f3 and here are alternatives using f13", you came in saying "f3 is bad and if you use it you're playing the character wrong and I see Cyrax players using it and they don't know what they're doing so here is f13" and then you proceeded to do the f3 setup wrong.
You mean the video I deleted and remade because I made a mistake, admitted it, apologized then remade and re-posted within 10 minutes in a totally different light. Thanks for holding me to that.

You have some nerve coming on here and stamping a Ponkster is disrespectful sticker on my head. I'm doing everything I can to inform Cyrax players of stuff they may or may not know. I make a video saying how I dislike how the community (as a whole not just cyrax) has straight up labelled him as bad and its has caused people to drop him or ignore him. I commended those (such as yourself) who have stuck with him.

You don't post match-up strategies or new tech, and most videos you do are playing other characters. Your opinion is worth a thousand of mine; but if you don't post up to date stuff on here or new ideas or discuss ways he can improve my opinion is better than no opinion.

Meanwhile you make a post rallying the stigma of "Cyrax has no chance against elite players or top tiers" putting off anyone who might want to play him in the future.

I understand the idea of not wanting to disillusion players into cyrax is S-tier, but I personally don't see anything wrong in being optimistic about the character and the possibility of finding stuff that will make him viable in the future.

I don't think you're being fair.
 
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Zionix

AKA Ponkster
i had the same issue when i recorded a single stream, so i just used windows movie maker (you already have it) and cut out the bits that were unnecessary, ended up trimming down my video to like 1/3 but still kept all the content

just some advice, because honestly, i cant watch this man, maybe other people are different but giving you feedback from me alone, i dont have time for a 10 minute introduction and then a 5 minute segue into another 15 minute seminar about the tech, no matter what you label it. I'm sure it's good stuff tho
I completely understand and when I have the time and I have worked out of the kinks that the set-ups have I will do a 2-3 minute quick video.
 

PND_Mustard

"More stealthful than the night"
Premium Supporter
Official ESL Gaming
You mean the video I deleted and remade because I made a mistake, admitted it, apologized then remade and re-posted within 10 minutes in a totally different light. Thanks for holding me to that.

You have some nerve coming on here and stamping a Ponkster is disrespectful sticker on my head. I'm doing everything I can to inform Cyrax players of stuff they may or may not know. I make a video saying how I dislike how the community (as a whole not just cyrax) has straight up labelled him as bad and its has caused people to drop him or ignore him. I commended those (such as yourself) who have stuck with him.

You don't post match-up strategies or new tech, and most videos you do are playing other characters. Your opinion is worth a thousand of mine; but if you don't post up to date stuff on here or new ideas or discuss ways he can improve my opinion is better than no opinion.

Meanwhile you make a post rallying the stigma of "Cyrax has no chance against elite players or top tiers" putting off anyone who might want to play him in the future.

I understand the idea of not wanting to disillusion players into cyrax is S-tier, but I personally don't see anything wrong in being optimistic about the character and the possibility of finding stuff that will make him viable in the future.

I don't think your being fair.
It's not your opinions that I have a problem with, it's how you portray them.

I'm not labelling you as disrespectful, but there is literally a 12 minute rant in this exact video where you are slamming Cyrax players, and slamming things that you know I have said with no actual vs gameplay to disprove it.

You commend me and I appreciate that, but then also say in the same video "I post this video and they just rolled their eyes at it and dismiss it" when that is not what happened.

I have just said to you why the community believes Cyrax is a weak character, what you need to do is prove it wrong. at this point in a games life we NEED to be realistic. If you play Cyrax, you are going to have to put a lot of work in to get even average results, that's not me deterring people away or trying to, but that's just the way it is.

Optimism is fine, but you can't just sweep serious glaring weaknesses and problems under the rug because you're finding setups. He's always had setup, it is by far his strongest asset, but I'd really like to see you taking a much more humble approach with your commentary in these videos.

Again, it's not your videos that I'm having an issue with, it's the undermining things you say in them that you don't seem to even realise you're saying.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
It's not your opinions that I have a problem with, it's how you portray them.

I'm not labelling you as disrespectful, but there is literally a 12 minute rant in this exact video where you are slamming Cyrax players, and slamming things that you know I have said with no actual vs gameplay to disprove it.

You commend me and I appreciate that, but then also say in the same video "I post this video and they just rolled their eyes at it and dismiss it" when that is not what happened.

I have just said to you why the community believes Cyrax is a weak character, what you need to do is prove it wrong. at this point in a games life we NEED to be realistic. If you play Cyrax, you are going to have to put a lot of work in to get even average results, that's not me deterring people away or trying to, but that's just the way it is.

Optimism is fine, but you can't just sweep serious glaring weaknesses and problems under the rug because you're finding setups. He's always had setup, it is by far his strongest asset, but I'd really like to see you taking a much more humble approach with your commentary in these videos.

Again, it's not your videos that I'm having an issue with, it's the undermining things you say in them that you don't seem to even realise you're saying.
Woah, I didn't mean you rolled your eyes at my videos. I mean't stream chat, the other day when there was a "new unblockable htb", i was just referencing this as I was trying to make a point that, finding his set-ups "that are truly legit" are extremely difficult and 95% of the stuff isn't legit and when labbed its just not strong. So most of these claims from people are 'eye rolling'

Not in anyway was I trying to make you look bad. Not my intention for it to come across this way.
 

SOULWARRIOR 71K

XBL: SOULWARRIOR 71K PSN: SOULWARRIOR71K
In my opinion is a situationally strong character but overall still has too many weaknesses to be truly viable. A lot of his moves are too slow and are too punishable by most of the cast. That being said, I'm loving that people are putting time and effort in him.
 

PND_Mustard

"More stealthful than the night"
Premium Supporter
Official ESL Gaming
Woah, I didn't mean you rolled your eyes at my videos. I mean't stream chat, the other day when there was a "new unblockable htb", i was just referencing this as I was trying to make a point that, finding his set-ups "that are truly legit" are extremely difficult and 95% of the stuff isn't legit and when labbed its just not strong. So most of these claims from people are 'eye rolling'

Not in anyway was I trying to make you look bad. Not my intention for it to come across this way.
And i'm not trying to make you look bad either, I wouldn't judge a community opinion based on stream chat anyway, Ketchup and I have an awesome twitch chat 99% of the time but it's not the same discussing things there as actually doing it on a forum.

We've both probably missed the point here, lol.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Back in the lab again with Cyrax


For people who might be worried about the final set-up being super strong you can wake-up tech roll back throw against the cyrax to avoid this option as-well (you get launched LOL) but you are out the set-up. Although he can probably just not dash and B3d4 you for full combo :D

edit: just tried to block the low overhead after delayed wake-up LOL not easy

edit2: just wanna see the tech go to 11:00 minutes

Have fun~!
Dude you came at me in the Low tier variation thread where a said that Cyrax was in no way low tier and that he was heavely downplayed.

I never claimed that he was top tier but I did say that I considered him a solid mid tier character. You said that I should prove it by playing and mopping top players with him or that I should just listen and accept what the people who actually use him say about him.

Now you come with this rant and agree that the Cyrax community has been downplaying him.

Great tech as always. I've been sort of an advocate for Cyrax being better than people make him out to be and this stuff is really scary man.
What? I remember you said you agreed with the general cyrax consensus.

You escape oki generally by blocking or armoring so take your guess. Cyrax setups... nooooo these you have to tech roll and jump back and if the opponents reads this he can still capture you with a different set up (but nothing is guaranteed :'-( ) STAHP THE DOWNPLAYING!!!
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Dude you came at me in the Low tier variation thread where a said that Cyrax was in no way low tier and that he was heavely downplayed.

I never claimed that he was top tier but I did say that I considered him a solid mid tier character. You said that I should prove it by playing and mopping top players with him or that I should just listen and accept what the people who actually use him say about him.

Now you come with this rant and agree that the Cyrax community has been downplaying him.

What? I remember you said you agreed with the general cyrax consensus.

You escape oki generally by blocking or armoring so take your guess. Cyrax setups... nooooo these you have to tech roll and jump back and if the opponents reads this he can still capture you with a different set up (but nothing is guaranteed :'-( ) STAHP THE DOWNPLAYING!!!
I generally think that in his current state with the tech we have I agree with the general consensus but I think there's still stuff to be found that would change that consensus.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Dude you came at me in the Low tier variation thread where a said that Cyrax was in no way low tier and that he was heavely downplayed.

I never claimed that he was top tier but I did say that I considered him a solid mid tier character. You said that I should prove it by playing and mopping top players with him or that I should just listen and accept what the people who actually use him say about him.

Now you come with this rant and agree that the Cyrax community has been downplaying him.

What? I remember you said you agreed with the general cyrax consensus.

You escape oki generally by blocking or armoring so take your guess. Cyrax setups... nooooo these you have to tech roll and jump back and if the opponents reads this he can still capture you with a different set up (but nothing is guaranteed :'-( ) STAHP THE DOWNPLAYING!!!
I remember this, I respect the top players opinions heavily and if they say at the top level he is bad then that is exactly the case.

My video is there to shine a light on the fact that the character has more tech and we should explore him more before we judge him completely and it seemed like the older Cyrax players had put him on a shelf until INJ2 with the label (average). He could very well still be average but I want to make sure.

I am done with this back and two arguing with people. Nothing I have said in any of my videos was wrong, I have just literally re-stated the general consensus of the community. If that undermines people then so be it.

My opinion of Cyrax has changed DRASTICALLY over the past couple of weeks because I have ways to get around his weaknesses. The stuff I have labbed isn't genius its pretty obvious and probably so obvious its been overlooked.

I will let the tech speak for itself, if a tournament player wants to use it and if it improves his representation then I don't see how it is a bad thing.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Why is the Cyrax community able to have intelligent debates while the rest of this site is either too much salt or too many agendas *smh* I love this site but if more people were like the Cyrax community we'd have a lot more fun and healthy conversation.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Official ESL Gaming
I don't think I've ever seen someone base their opinion on a character so hard around training mode before.

High Tech Jacqui looked godlike in training mode. Against a real opponent, not so much.

It really seems like a copout saying "wait for someone else to use my tech". prove the point yourself. See you in the Community Cup this Sunday. It's not like you're not a tournament player, I've seen you at majors.

And I'm not really talking too much about Cyrax as a character anymore. I don't even use the character and I've had enough of your constant shots at Cyrax players "being lazy" for thinking he has issues. Come on man.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
I don't think I've ever seen someone base their opinion on a character so hard around training mode before.

High Tech Jacqui looked godlike in training mode. Against a real opponent, not so much.

It really seems like a copout saying "wait for someone else to use my tech". prove the point yourself. See you in the Community Cup this Sunday. It's not like you're not a tournament player, I've seen you at majors.

And I'm not really talking too much about Cyrax as a character anymore. I don't even use the character and I've had enough of your constant shots at Cyrax players "being lazy" for thinking he has issues. Come on man.
I don't see how a personal attack looks good on your part, or how it contributes to this discussion. I go to tournaments to support the community and meet friends. I am trying to show what Cyrax is capable of on paper; not boost my own ego.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Optimism is fine, but you can't just sweep serious glaring weaknesses and problems under the rug because you're finding setups. He's always had setup, it is by far his strongest asset...
This was my only thought. I'm really impressed to see the tech still being worked on and labbed. I'm always happy to see his setups improved.

It's just that his htbs/setups aren't usually the reason he's being "downplayed"...