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Breakthrough - Cyrax Rant inc - Cyrax is a monster!

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Someone should do a compilation of the time doombawks has talked about his bane story at any opportunity


They should do a film adaptation with morgan freeman
At least I had a reason this time, cut me some slack. This isn't brand name Doombawkz story time, it's cherry Doombawkz story time. Less sugar, same great taste.


I don't see how anything I said is even remotely a personal attack.
When you mentioned that you've never seen anyone base their ideas so strongly on lab work, it came off that you were saying he hasn't actually tried to put it to practice. Assuming he put a lot of work into it, making such a brash assumption in such short terms could be taken a bit harshly.

Also "saying to wait until people use the tech is a copout" is a bit hurtful to a lab monster. I can't speak for him, but I always had the opinion that my tech is better left to people with better hands than me. Saying my tech has less value because I think someone else could do better with it, or rather to say claiming it to be a cop-out rather than an honest appraisal of one's personal skills, is essentially like someone saying "Oh that's nice tech that you worked hard on, but until I see you use it in a tournament it doesn't really matter. Even if other people use it, unless it's you then the tech isn't as good.".

At least that's what I gathered from it.

I don't understand this at all.

Bane's start was rocky because he was literally GARBAGE on launch. It took patch after patch to finally make him decent, and in the end, overbuffed into the craziness he turned out to be.

Cyrax has received major nerfs patch after patch, and even in the latest patch, nerfed him once more due to the mechanical changes hurting him more than helping him. This is not a comparison you can make at all IMO.
You're actually just made the comparison for me, but I'll explain it real quick.

You just said "It took patch after patch to make him decent". This shows an immense lack of insight into the character himself, though for the sake of explanation, I'll note every patch change that made any difference in any MU that only Bane received.

1.03

Gave Bane a dash, fixed his back throw doing like 3% less than everyone elses, and made venom not suicide.


1.05

You can no longer parry Bane's charge


There you go. That's literally it. Those two patches, and the second one only applied to about 3 MUs in total. After 1.03, for all intents and purposes, he was the same character he is now. Pretty much any MU we win, we do so with tools that have existed since 1.03. So since 1.03, Bane, as a character, has been decent. Why, then, at 1.03 after gaining all of these tools was Bane regarded as bottom 2?

Let's fast forward to 1.05, where Bane got moved up to being only bottom 3 despite him no longer having a parryable charge.

All of a sudden, in 1.06, despite receiving no direct MU shifting changes, he jumps from bottom 3 to top 6. Do you know why? It's because Bane was never "bad" after he got a dash.
All of a sudden, despite nothing in his notes directly changing the MUs in question, he wasn't getting 7-3'd by Killer Frost, Lex, or Doomsday anymore. It's not because Bane got overbuffed, it's because after the gaze was taken off of Superman, suddenly people realized the character the thought was bad all this time was actually a monster. It's because the community could no longer support it's disposition. People getting their backs blown out is a result of them being unprepared, and the shift in contrast was much more severe as a result.


So to summarize, in case you're skimming, your idea that Bane took "patch after patch" to become decent is a direct result of what my comparison is drawing to. People have that idea because, up until that point, Bane was easy to downplay because it was just accepted as true. An entire character, community, and tech was written off simply because "Bane is bad because he is bad.". In reality, he became the character he is during the first actual balance change, and received minor quality of life improvements with the exception of 1.05 which gave us a way to get through parries.


Now in comparison to Cyrax, he received nerfs so he has been written off in much the same way. Both characters, after receiving major changes, are being openly regarded as the worst. Yet after 1.03 and Cyrax as he is now are at about the same point. They are both considered bottom 2 (or a strong case can be made of them being bottom 5 at least), people are putting work in to explore their tools as they are, in games where the meta doesn't favor them. Both have tons of potential, both rely on a combination of intimate knowledge of their own tools and their opponents, and a reliance on the opponent's lack of knowledge. The only difference between the two is that Bane started as likely the worst character NRS has ever created ever, whereas Cyrax in his current form is leagues above that, otherwise the scenarios are actually frighteningly identical.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
I don't see how anything I said is even remotely a personal attack.
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself.
The phrase you're looking for is ad hominem.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
At least I had a reason this time, cut me some slack. This isn't brand name Doombawkz story time, it's cherry Doombawkz story time. Less sugar, same great taste.



When you mentioned that you've never seen anyone base their ideas so strongly on lab work, it came off that you were saying he hasn't actually tried to put it to practice. Assuming he put a lot of work into it, making such a brash assumption in such short terms could be taken a bit harshly.

Also "saying to wait until people use the tech is a copout" is a bit hurtful to a lab monster. I can't speak for him, but I always had the opinion that my tech is better left to people with better hands than me. Saying my tech has less value because I think someone else could do better with it, or rather to say claiming it to be a cop-out rather than an honest appraisal of one's personal skills, is essentially like someone saying "Oh that's nice tech that you worked hard on, but until I see you use it in a tournament it doesn't really matter. Even if other people use it, unless it's you then the tech isn't as good.".

At least that's what I gathered from it.
I can relate
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Exactly how it felt, couldn't of wrote it better.
It can't be helped that he misunderstood then, you shouldn't have been so bold to call him out on it like that. The way you worded it was all wrong.
I know what you meant because we're cut from the same cord, but I can see how it got lost in translation. You'd do better to explain yourself than blame the other person in this case.

He obviously didn't intend for it to come off personally. Content comes second to context, and you have to take intent into consideration. Ketchup is a good guy though. I'm sure he isn't looking to fight you on it and he probably really didn't intend to hurt you, so hopefully a compromise can be reached where you both can admit to misunderstanding each other's feelings on the matter and iron it out.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Official ESL Gaming
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself.
So you're really calling it a "personal attack" because I've disagreed with how you've made your message come across, but are totally fine with a 12 minute personal attack on the entire Cyrax community by your own definition.

Cool man.
 

Sunny_D

Green Arrows personal Shooty guy
Aight guys @PND_Ketchup @Zionix lets just drop this an continue finding Cyrax dirt shall we?

Quick question zionix, if i do b1 24 instead of b3d4 will it break the same amount of armor? And will it beat most options like tech roll jump forward, tech roll grab, delayed wake up, and essentially one hit of armor wake ups? If so you can add the to the setup in thw corner :) im just asking cause i gotta work all day and cant lab it myself. Dont forget to tage me next time man ;)
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
For the sake of it, let's not have a bickering war over semantics here. Obviously there's been a lapse in communication, that's all.

You're both reasonable people with a pension for coming off the wrong way, so let's make a clear step towards not turning this into an argument.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
So you're really calling it a "personal attack" because I've disagreed with how you've made your message come across, but are totally fine with a 12 minute personal attack on the entire Cyrax community by your own definition.

Cool man.
You deliberately called me out to save face because you don't have real evidence to disprove my claims.

There was no personal attack on the community, you need to re-read what it means. I was not directly addressing individuals with there skill/time and saying they should have done more. I discuss the claims that had been made in the past and showed my evidence as to why this is NOT the case. I also stated that I believed people had given up on Cyrax in the community (overall) due to a negative stigma that surrounds the character; causing people to have no hope and lose interest or invest their time in other characters.

Your first post disagreed with how I put my message across and I apologized for that; it could of been done way better.
 
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Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Aight guys @PND_Ketchup @Zionix lets just drop this an continue finding Cyrax dirt shall we?

Quick question zionix, if i do b1 24 instead of b3d4 will it break the same amount of armor? And will it beat most options like tech roll jump forward, tech roll grab, delayed wake up, and essentially one hit of armor wake ups? If so you can add the to the setup in thw corner :) im just asking cause i gotta work all day and cant lab it myself. Dont forget to tage me next time man ;)
If you time it correctly, possibly, I'm working on midscreen tech at the moment. I'll have a look at armor breaks later, my initial thoughts are that they will just wriggle out if not frame perfect.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
-obviously didn't read what I just said-
Oi, oi. What did I just say? No need for bickering. This is gonna spiral out if we don't nip it now.
There's a time and a place, this is neither of those. Unless you'd rather answer to the mod staff on why you decided to continue a fight needlessly, I'd recommend acting with some tact and choosing a less confrontational route.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
concerning this specific issue, there is not much to understand. if youre not aiming for the perfect balance, youre doing it wrong. and if you wanna make a "super fun" character with bazillions of htb's and plus frames, any dev should be able to see that this cries "balance problem".
That is what they are aiming for, but not before making fun-to-play characters. When you put "perfect balance" first, you end up with uninspired exchanges - which is why SFV hasn't sold well thus far. When they tested what players wanted, the pendulum was too far towards balance - which told them to put balance first, but the truth is that in order to make a great fighter they must find a perfect balance between tier balance and inspired gameplay - which only comes from inspired characters with great move-sets.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
@PND_Ketchup is not making a personal attack, but @Zionix is feeling the weight your words have and doesn't want his point dismissed.

Historically, the stories behind Bane and Cyrax are very different, but the idea that they are widely thought to be unviable by the community unless proven otherwise is very much the same.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Oi, oi. What did I just say? No need for bickering. This is gonna spiral out if we don't nip it now.
There's a time and a place, this is neither of those. Unless you'd rather answer to the mod staff on why you decided to continue a fight needlessly, I'd recommend acting with some tact and choosing a less confrontational route.
I love the twins, won't stop supporting them and their content. You can't have a proper discussion on a forum,
@PND_Ketchup is not making a personal attack, but @Zionix is feeling the weight your words have and doesn't want his point dismissed.

Historically, the stories behind Bane and Cyrax are very different, but the idea that they are widely thought to be unviable by the community unless proven otherwise is very much the same.
It's just a giant misunderstanding. I love the twins they are aweseome!

This corner tech makes his corner game one of the best in MKXL. Think cyber sub before patch.

It will help Cyrax a lot, but he still will have issues the neutral and most of the time won't even be able to execute it! We need a lot more tech to make him worth picking for tournament!
 
Reactions: GAV
That is what they are aiming for, but not before making fun-to-play characters. When you put "perfect balance" first, you end up with uninspired exchanges - which is why SFV hasn't sold well thus far. When they tested what players wanted, the pendulum was too far towards balance - which told them to put balance first, but the truth is that in order to make a great fighter they must find a perfect balance between tier balance and inspired gameplay - which only comes from inspired characters with great move-sets.
i know but it didnt sound like that
 

Sunny_D

Green Arrows personal Shooty guy
so what about the grab? Maybe hes so plu that they cant even jump his normal grab? :0 thats a thing right?
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Thanks, I feel bad about my rant though, I didn't want to upset anyone I just felt frustrated that this stuff hadn't been found sooner and I felt like if more people were interested and labbing he wouldn't be written off in so many peoples mind. Nobody is obligated to do anything though, so its none of my business what individuals do with their time.
Ketchup made the pretty valid point already that while this tech is good, it doesn't do anything to counteract his weaknesses. Let's not pretend that this tech suddenly bumps him up tiers
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Ketchup made the pretty valid point already that while this tech is good, it doesn't do anything to counteract his weaknesses. Let's not pretend that this tech suddenly bumps him up tiers
No but it makes his corner game stronger; you can do a meaningful easy damage combo and land a meaty B3 with a 50/50 game that's very difficult to tell.

Using a similar thing midscreen if you watch my midscreen video, if you mess your combo up and realize while they are in the air (bomb didn't come out) you can do a late NJP midscreen mid-bomb and have enough hit advantage to do a number of things; you can do this after a B3d4 HTB aswell.

The tech doesn't help his neutral so won't bump him up tiers but it helps to show that he isn't a bottom 5 contender and he isn't fully explored.

He is a little bit like Bo, has a tough time but its mix city in corner :D
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
i know but it didnt sound like that
Sometimes messages read differently as they move from one person to the next. I took it as it was out of love for the character rather than dislike of any others. Still, I think his insight gave his ambition legs and the team has expanded their own awareness enough to temper his enthusiasm where necessary. This is what I took away from the story.
 
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Charybdis

We are returned! Death to the False Emperor!
I came into this thread because I was thinking "outside of Sektor, I never actually played a KP2 character. I wonder what Cyrax was like, I never saw him in tournaments I don't think"

I did not expect shade, the classic underdog-lab-monster story, accusations of elitism and @Doombawkz channeling the President from Independence Day on speechwriting.

Bravo gents