General/Other - Raiden Raiden Character Variations Discussion

[Raidenwins]

How about a thread to discuss Raiden's character variations in detail to help people decide which one fits their playstyle best?

I'll start with my thoughts so far, so here goes:

1. Thunder God - this is the default one so naturally I started with it first. My first impression was that it seems to be geared towards dealing lots of damage with flashy combos. Also, it seems better suited for Rush Down style of play, as you can really put the pressure on the opponent by holding 2 at the end of combos, or not holding it for that matter, to make them guess. I am a sucker for long, flashy combos so this one was an instant winner with me, although I am sure such combos are possible in all his variations.
2. Displacer - this is what I like to call Klassic Raiden, simply because he has his Teleport move in this variation. After all, you can't have Raiden without a teleport, right?! This one seems best suited for Hit and Run playstyle. His mobility is ridiculous, with not one or two, but 8 different teleports. You can now teleport virtually anywhere on the screen, including staying in the same spot for some additional mind games. I suspect in the hands of a skilled player, Raiden will be very hard to touch in this variation. Plus, being able to enhance Electric Fly on hit confirm makes the variation even more powerful. And finally, this is the variation that is closest to his MK9 playstyle, so it maybe the easiest and most comfortable for returning Raiden players.
3. Master of Storms - this one seems very tricky, at first glance anyway. With all the different Static Traps in front, behind, or above you and various combinations of all those, it'd be very, very difficult for the opponent to get close to you. One of my favorite aspects of this variation is the fact you can put Static Traps above you, thus negating Jump-Ins and Cross-Over Jump, which, to me anyway, are some of the hardest tactics to deal with. The obvious playstyle here is Turtle (a.k.a. Keep Away). Reminds me of Viola from Soul Calibur V. I think this would probably be the hardest of all of his variations to master and use effectively in a match, simply because it's hard to keep track (for the Raiden player) of where all those traps are and for how long they'd stay there, but just like with Displacer, in the right hands this variation of Raiden would be a nightmare to deal with.

So far I am leaning towards Thunder God. That's all I for right now. What are your thoughts on each of Raiden's variations, and which one are you leaning towards right now, in these very early stages of the game?

 

[Vilén]

Thunder God is great.

Displacer objectively sucks right now.

Master of Storms is up in the air. Setplay characters generally take a long time to flesh out compared to more straight forward characters. It doesn't help that it really isn't obvious from the get-go what you're supposed to be using this shit for.

 

[Cosmic Forge]

For me, Master of Storms is all about letting the first spark linger for awhile, making your opponent wary of when the 2nd one is coming. I know it's obvious, but most of the time I set up the 2nd one after a block confirmed string like 2,1,4 (forward spark, puts it behind them).

Another dirty trick is to wait until you switch sides (throw, or fly over with superman, whatever) and toss it behind you. It's crazy that you can set a trap spanning the entire length of the stage.

Also, Tony-T showed some 50/50 setups in the corner by ending a combo with 2nd spark, forcing them to block or risk getting thrown.

 

[Raidenwins]

For me, Master of Storms is all about letting the first spark linger for awhile, making your opponent wary of when the 2nd one is coming. I know it's obvious, but most of the time I set up the 2nd one after a block confirmed string like 2,1,4 (forward spark, puts it behind them).

Another dirty trick is to wait until you switch sides (throw, or fly over with superman, whatever) and toss it behind you. It's crazy that you can set a trap spanning the entire length of the stage.

Also, Tony-T showed some 50/50 setups in the corner by ending a combo with 2nd spark, forcing them to block or risk getting thrown.

Yea, the potential of Master of Storms is mind-boggling, with all the various single and double trap combinations, block strings canceled into traps, etc. It hurts my head just thinking about it. Imagine a Master of Storms Raiden mirror match. Talk about craziness lol

Somebody on this board mentioned that if you hold R1 (or whatever Block is set to) while doing Ex-Teleport in Displacer variation, Raiden becomes invisible. At first I was skeptical, but I went into training mode today and tried it out and, lo and behold, it works! I don't know yet if you can still control the direction of the teleport while invisible, but this might have potential to make Displacer quite powerful.

 

[Chaosphere]

Thunder God is great.

Displacer objectively sucks right now.

Master of Storms is up in the air. Setplay characters generally take a long time to flesh out compared to more straight forward characters. It doesn't help that it really isn't obvious from the get-go what you're supposed to be using this shit for.

Don't know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that displacer sucks this early. I don't want any misinformation going around.

Anyone reading this. Don't just take people's word on whether or not something sucks less than the first week into the game.

 

[Iz-GOod]

Although I'm focusing on Thunder God 100% right now, I could see Displacer useful agains keepaway characters like Kung Jin.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

Main disadvantage of Displacer is that you can't just mash wakeup teleport anymore, something I didn't realize at first. If you get room to breathe in the corner though you can still use the far teleport to get yourself out, so idk if it's going to wind up being totally useless.

Any noteworthy uses for meter burn fly in Displacer yet, other than tacking on the last bit of damage to take a round? How much more advantage does it give you to run up with, if any?

 

[Iz-GOod]

Any noteworthy uses for meter burn fly in Displacer yet, other than tacking on the last bit of damage to take a round? How much more advantage does it give you to run up with, if any?

You can probably full combo punish any projectile with it

 

[Chaosphere]

Main disadvantage of Displacer is that you can't just mash wakeup teleport anymore, something I didn't realize at first. If you get room to breathe in the corner though you can still use the far teleport to get yourself out, so idk if it's going to wind up being totally useless.

Any noteworthy uses for meter burn fly in Displacer yet, other than tacking on the last bit of damage to take a round? How much more advantage does it give you to run up with, if any?

The teleport isn't designed to be a mash on wakeup teleport in this game. You'll get wrecked for doing that. I would imagine it may be useful to link at the end of either a block string or a normal/string on hit. Haven't played with it too much yet. Labbing tonight.

 

[BlackJackSnack]

I prefer displacer, working on thunder god right now. Are some of his strings using thunder god variation safe?

Tried master of storms but having difficulty getting good orb setups

 

[Iz-GOod]

I prefer displacer, working on thunder god right now. Are some of his strings using thunder god variation safe?

I believe 1,1,2(hold),2(hold) is -6 on block, but it can be interrupted after the teleport of the first 2.

 

[Vilén]

Don't know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that displacer sucks this early. I don't want any misinformation going around.

Anyone reading this. Don't just take people's word on whether or not something sucks less than the first week into the game.

I didn't say Displacer sucks. I said it sucks right now.

 

[Brown Cow 54]

The theory that displacer sucks is nonsense. Just cause we haven't seen any pros use it 5 days into the game doesn't mean its bad. On another note I believe KowTow was referring to the meter burn for fly in displacer, not armor fly that he has in all variations. But other than the fact that its a hard knockdown and adds a little bit of damage I'm not sure there is much of a use. I was messing with it earlier to see if I could figure something out with it and you can control where you meter burn it so that you end up next to an intractable for whatever that's worth. So maybe use it to get a hard knockdown and then end up next to the stump that you can jump off in forest so that you can jump at them and do an overhead attack on the way down? Idk

 

[Barrogh]

I prefer displacer, working on thunder god right now.

It looks like almost everyone feels this way right now lol.

 

[Zenitheon]

Displacer can give him some incredible midscreen pressure, with his teleport allowing him to keep the opponent on their toes, even if his string ended up knocking them a good distance away. The trade off is that he loses out on his amazing corner pressure and mind games that he has in his thunder god variation, like holding the string to put them at the range where their go to move will just barely whiff. Conversely, Displacer's neutral teleport can set up some lolzy punish combos if you can read and bait out unsafe reversals or pokes. Master of storms can bring some really incredible utility, mind games and setups, though this is at the cost of the lightning strings from his thunder god form and his teleporting pressure and escapes from Displacer. I personally feel that master of storms is the weakest of his forms, though that has more to do with my personal play style. Having played with it, I can say that as long as you have a strong understanding of positioning, the amount of free pressure you get is outrageous, provided you can stay three steps ahead of your enemy.

 

[Peckapowa]

Don't know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that displacer sucks this early. I don't want any misinformation going around.

Anyone reading this. Don't just take people's word on whether or not something sucks less than the first week into the game.

What I would say is displAcer doesn't look very strong yet. Ironically I didn't think thunder God would be great.

Raiden's normals are weak in the whiff punishment and space control area. Then consider his inability to escape pressure freely and create that guess.the loss of stamina for some of his crap.

What he's gained his far away tps, and a very mindyames ex tp.

His runaway might be strong but the mobility in this game is tough. Displacer raiden and master if storms aren't early meta chars, but I'd find it tough to play the super saiyan patient game in this environment

 

[SirRaven]

I've been maining 100% displacer. I can tell you that this variation is all about zoning. The slow start-up of teleport makes it way too punishable to be what it used to be (a get out of jail free card). As others have said, there's no more ability to escape pressure with wake-up teleport. Instead, it's all about having mid / long range and porting around to confuse your opponent. However, directional teleports are subject to your run meter so you can only control two in rapid succession. This makes an opponent paying attention easily able to discern where you are going with the teleports. If you have no run meter and tp, you're coming up right behind them (if it even works at all with lag that usually results in you neutral jumping)

Even the "hold r2" sparkport simply makes you invisible and open to attack. Common sense would say that you are phase shifted mid-teleport so you can't be attacked until you come out of it (which it does automatically if you don't decide to let go...can't sit there forever) but, unfortunately, someone pressuring when you sparkport-hold, will knock you right out of it.

With absolute certainty, the only real strength of displacer is the hit confirm EX superman for 16% iirc. Build up bar with full screen sparks, keep zoning, when open, superman -> ex. It's a cheap as all hell but it is the way of displacer raiden. If I manage to get you in the corner, I can drop a reliable 44-45% combo on you and midscreen 35%. The problem is that you don't want to be playing midscreen or up close to all the other characters that can out-poke you or out-mixup you.

Pressure players are the bane of his existence since his wake up superman is slow and punishable, his uppercut loses to every other uppercut I've tested against and his pokes are also too slow against those heavy pressure characters. Without wakeup teleport, raiden has no choice but to sit there, block, and hope to get a free poke or uppercut.

 

[Raidenwins]

...
With absolute certainty, the only real strength of displacer is the hit confirm EX superman for 16% iirc.
...

If that's true, why even bother with using it? Thunder God variation has a lot more to offer than 3-4% additional damage. Like other people above have mentioned, you get crazy corner pressure and really good push back on block when you extent his combos by holding 2. Plus, awesome flashy combos. You can't tell me Raiden shooting all these lightnings from his hands doesn't make you warm and fuzzy inside

I haven't experimented with Displacer a whole lot yet, but I agree that his normal teleport alone doesn't seem nearly as useful as it was in MK9. However, I don't think that's how it is meant to be used in this game. I think the main use of the teleport would probably be to make the opponent guess where you are going to materialize and in addition, are you going to use normal or Ex-Teleport. And if you can also control where you are going to materilize after becoming invisible (which I don't know yet if you can do), I think it becomes obvious that in the hands of a skilled player Displacer Raiden would be very hard to get close to. I mean, we have 8 different possibilities now of what the Raiden player might do with a teleport and that's not counting invisibility.

Of course, at this early stage of the game this is all just theory and I am having way too much fun with Thunder God to spend any serious time with the other two variations. I'll say this though, I tried to use Master of Storms online last night and I had a really hard time getting even one static trap out. I am sure it's just me though. I really want to fully explore all his variations and hopefully master all of them. Man, I am loving this game. So much to learn! I think the last time we had an MK game with that much gameplay depth was probably MK Deadly Alliance.

 

[SirRaven]

I think the main use of the teleport would probably be to make the opponent guess where you are going to materialize and in addition, are you going to use normal or Ex-Teleport. And if you can also control where you are going to materilize after becoming invisible (which I don't know yet if you can do), I think it becomes obvious that in the hands of a skilled player Displacer Raiden would be very hard to get close to.

To answer your question, yes, you can control where it goes after invisible. The problem is that's all it is...invisibility. As far as 8 different ways to TP, counting EX doesn't really add anything, just makes start up almost instant. Recovery appears to be the same from my testing.

The biggest issue is that they were faaaaaar too conservative w/ his startup / recovery. Once players know that raiden's teleport is weak to pressure, all of those mind games go out the window. All his teleports can be damaged out of while he's disappearing and after he reappears, he likes to fix his hair and check the time before starting to attack. I've teleported behind people while they were mid-combo string and they were blocking before I could get even a poke in. Even teleporting behind subzero while he's grabbing his ice clone to throw and sub recovers before raiden can attack. That's bad.

He can't take pressure and if facing a zoner, projectiles will knock him out of teleport every time. They didn't even give the variation opportunity for a skilled raiden to use teleports to avoid projectiles. I'm sure they were still scared of Raiden breaking the game and whining about TP being OP like in early MK9, hence why they threw it into only one variation.

 

[learis1]

I think master of storms has tons of pressure potential. You set up one spark. Then you attack with a string. If it's blocked you cancel it into another spark. If the opponent then tries to attack you afterward they'll get hit by the electricity. So you basically get to continue your pressure or punish them accordingly.

 

[brizzle]

To answer your question, yes, you can control where it goes after invisible. The problem is that's all it is...invisibility. As far as 8 different ways to TP, counting EX doesn't really add anything, just makes start up almost instant. Recovery appears to be the same from my testing.

The biggest issue is that they were faaaaaar too conservative w/ his startup / recovery. Once players know that raiden's teleport is weak to pressure, all of those mind games go out the window. All his teleports can be damaged out of while he's disappearing and after he reappears, he likes to fix his hair and check the time before starting to attack. I've teleported behind people while they were mid-combo string and they were blocking before I could get even a poke in. Even teleporting behind subzero while he's grabbing his ice clone to throw and sub recovers before raiden can attack. That's bad.

He can't take pressure and if facing a zoner, projectiles will knock him out of teleport every time. They didn't even give the variation opportunity for a skilled raiden to use teleports to avoid projectiles. I'm sure they were still scared of Raiden breaking the game and whining about TP being OP like in early MK9, hence why they threw it into only one variation.

The recovery on ex teleport is almost instant at 7 frames so it's actually waaay better than normal tele. But your right about normal being useless. Teleport a projectile and raiden gets punished lol. Even the far teleport is useless. All they have to do is run and you still get punished.

What I don't understand is why they nerfed it even more from mk9 final build. 19 frames of recovery was a good balance. You get punished if their expecting it, but if their not then you can still pressure or punish projectiles with slow recovery. I think kabal, Kenshi, batgirl and MMH made NRS afraid of everything. Imagine how good MOS orbs could be if it wasn't for MMH

 

[Barrogh]

I think kabal, Kenshi, batgirl and MMH made NRS afraid of everything. Imagine how good MOS orbs could be if it wasn't for MMH

MKX is full of both good teleports and good traps, so it's not like NRS are afraid of anything.

 

[SirRaven]

MKX is full of both good teleports and good traps, so it's not like NRS are afraid of anything.

That's the part that bothers me most about Raiden's teleport being so nerfed. It makes me wonder if their fear is that you can't simply "block" it to punish. It requires an expectation retaliation in MK9 form.

 

[Barrogh]

That's the part that bothers me most about Raiden's teleport being so nerfed. It makes me wonder if their fear is that you can't simply "block" it to punish. It requires an expectation retaliation in MK9 form.

We also have neutral teleports on Scorpion and Sihrai Takeda (IIRC). And away teleport Displacer doesn't get. Although they cost 2 stamina, I bet Displacer players would love an option for better teleport for 2 stamina bars because those don't look like having 29f of recovery to me, do they? And then there are followups and meterless combos to boot in at least 2 of Scorpion's variations...

Makes me feel like I don't understand something about Raiden, or just overestimate tools of yellow men.

 

[brizzle]

MKX is full of both good teleports and good traps, so it's not like NRS are afraid of anything.

I just meant how everything in general is way more unsafe in this game. But yes I feel raidens "teleport" variation has the worst teleport in the game. And his "trap variation" has no setups lol. Thunder God is very good but I don't think one variation is enough.

People keep trying to defend the other two variations for some reason. There terrible. If Thunder God wasn't so good I would have a different main. Raiden has the potential to be a very well balanced and versatile character. If teleport was like mk9 and orbs had a hitbox this would be achieved.